[Closed] Thatcher's died according to BBC

ernie_lynch - Member

Of course for a few very wealthy people she did make Britain a better place.

It is not the few wealthy to be blamed but the reality of everyone wanting to be loaded that's the problem.

Its easy to blame her for the aftermath of the union purges, at the end of the day she was responsible. The other option was to allow the unions to continue on their ego trip until everything had collapsed. We'll never know which was the lesser of the two evils.

The unions did destroy much of British manufacturing and as a result drive down labour costs. They couldn't and wouldn't see that things had changed around the world.

She's gone the world has moved on, it's about time people stopped blaming her for their current situation, Blair, Brown and Camerloon are the ones to have a chip on your shoulder about these days.

She did the right thing but as usual the society / country could not hack it so placed all blames on her ... as usual ... apart from themselves.

How was it the fault of people who were brought up in Welsh or Northern villages / towns with only one significant source of employment? Sure, these mines couldn't last but education / training / help with moving etc should have been looked into before shutting down entire communities.

Hi Ernie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_United_Kingdom#1979.E2.80.931990:_the_Thatcher_era

It was a difficult and painful time for the majority. Bleak times but she did what was needed for the benefit of the country.

We'll never know which was the lesser of the two evils.

They could have spent some time coming up with a third way though, that's the point.

all you cretinous right wingers really need to look around-- which country in europe has a strong economy, unions on the boards of most major employers, proper welfare system and a 35 hr week---- Germany....they work together for the good of most, wage /salary disparities nothing like here-- oh and unemployed get 80% of average wage they were earning....

How was it the fault of people who were brought up in Welsh or Northern villages / towns with only one significant source of employment? Sure, these mines couldn't last but education / training / help with moving etc should have been looked into before shutting down entire communities.

Go and read up on what Clement Atlee's Labour Government did with Category D villages in the North East and the toll this took in the following decades !

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railways_Act_1993 ]

Why do some blame her for everything?

You know how Regan dealt with problems in this period? He increased the debt window countless times.

Similar to New Labour. Increase public spending and reliance for boom or bust. It kept them popular but Maggies approach was the opposite.

Politicians yearn to be popular. She didn't.

How can you blame how your life turned out on her?

Molgrips

That worked out well with Blair and Brown didn't it. In reality the third way would have degenerated into letting the unions continue their ego trip as there was no way their leaders were going to voluntarily let go of their personal power. Some of the things done weren't good, bulldozing the pit head down the shaft to effectively seal the mines was pretty vindictive. But then the country couldn't afford to let these communities down gently, they had been subsidised for years by previous governments.

oh and they build ships, and have heavy engineering , in that there Germany-- uk plc is a call centre state selling shit nobody needs/wants

i'm just really surprised that so many people on a mountain bike forum have so obviously never been to glyncorrwg.

Hi Ernie

It was a difficult and painful time for the majority.

Indeed it was. Unemployment, government spending, the tax burden, housing shortage, and crime levels, all shot up significantly under her Premiership. Economic growth in the 1980s was exactly the same as in the 1970s. And wages as a percentage of GDP fell.

It was however a good time for a small minority.

And of course it was the free-market fundamentalism which she introduced in the 1980s that sowed the seeds of today's crises.

Rudebwoy, thats the German Unions, culturally very different from the dinosaurs in the UK. As you said they work for the good of most, not just the egos and personal idealogies of the union leaders.

Now if you can't have a reasoned rant without being insulting it might be your bedtime.

What year did the mine close in Glyncorrwg?

Ernie - ref the 1970s:

Same old, same old, unions this, unions that. Mining on the ropes, reinvest or assist in other means of employment? Nah, shut it all down and sod'em. Banking utterly F***ed up, how much do you need, old chap? help yourself to billions. What a legacy for us all.

Well the tax payers will be better off now as we won't have to pay her her allowance /expensive every week which some reports were over £2,000 a week .
Funny how CMD is happy to cut benefits to the poor and handicap but not to the rich claiming there money .

Stavromuller

Don't remember Thatcher bailing out the banks, think that may have been good old socialist Gorden Brown.

Banking utterly ****ed up?

So who was in power for a DECADE before this happened?

Comrade Blair sweetie

Non stop nun. Blair and Brown cost us money now you know. Blair also has publically funded security. So whilst he makes millions from his connections in the middle east trips....we pay. Nice huh?

Rudebwoy, thats the German Unions [u]and companies and management[/u], culturally very different from the dinosaurs in the UK.

walleater - Member

How was it the fault of people who were brought up in Welsh or Northern villages / towns with only one significant source of employment? Sure, these mines couldn't last but education / training / help with moving etc should have been looked into before shutting down entire communities.

I really think it is not a very good idea for a PM to micro manage so I think you cannot blame her entirely. Perhaps the local leader should be blamed.

Who bailed them out hora?....and the Tories were in charge parading as Labour MP's.

Can some of these Thatcher supporters enlighten me on where North Sea oil revenue during her tenure and the proceeds from the sell off of everything went?

Nick1962, fair point, unions get the management they deserve and vice versa. Management do hold the whip hand though, ultimately they are the representatives of the people who own the business.

Scargill the leach on poor miners. Check yourselves.

Like to call such lefties commercial-Reds.

all you cretinous right wingers really need to look around--

Oh my, you really do have a chip on your shoulder don't you.....

I think it iis shameful that we all spend so much time and effort arguing about what she did and didn't do, and what we can blame her for for and how some try to lionise or demonise her. We should be ashamed of ourselves. She died today, let us not forget that. She has died, can we not just be grateful for that and leave all the bickering aside.

🙂

rudebwoy - Member

all you cretinous right wingers really need to look around-- which country in europe has a strong economy, unions on the boards of most major employers, proper welfare system and a 35 hr week---- Germany....they work together for the good of most, wage /salary disparities nothing like here-- oh and unemployed get 80% of average wage they were earning....

Firstly, watch your language.

Secondly, if you're comparing the power hungry fat cat champagne socialist union leaders of this country with that of Germany, then you have obviously no idea what you are talking about.

Thatcher did however introduce "incentives" for the financial sector in London. These should not be confused with "subsidies", which were withdrawn from the undeserving provinces.
The more I remember, the angrier I get.

get quite annoyed that people think that thatcher presided over some kind economic golden age as far as i can see her policies seem just as self destructive as our current governments

the countries coffers were swollen by north sea oil revenues dwarfing the input of the city
and it was the previous labour government that had brought the american oil expertise/investment to make it all possible
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00l7r9j
next time its on this is well worth watching

If you/others post something as fact.

Can you please include a link/to the facts? I said the same earlier to pro-Tory flow charts as well.

Lets not do what stw'er project did a few posts back hey.

Guys for all the wrongs/rights she has been involved with, at the end of the day she will be missed by her family RIP

De-regulation (brought in by Thatchers Government) meant the financial sector had free reign and was tightly not controlled by government. So how can successive governments be blamed for the financial industry so monumentally f***ing up? Unless you think Blair should have brought the financial industry to heel.

Nick1962

We're not necessarily Thatcher supporters, she did a lot of things badly, the council house sell of for example, it was great people got to own their own homes and criminal the money wasn't immediately pumped back into more social housing. However I don't buy into the utopian view of how the unions were not massively responsible for what happened or how 30 years on millions of people have been unable to get a grip on their lives because of things that happened then.

rattrap - Member

Ernie - ref the 1970s:

The old IMF argument z-11 ? 🙂

Only reason it was a Labour government that went to the IMF, rather that a Tory one, is because the Tories lost the 1974 general election and failed to form a coalition government with the Liberals ........ otherwise the Tories would have gone to the IMF !

Three days after the general election in 1974, which had resulted in a hung parliament, Ted Heath approached Liberal Party leader Jeremy Thorpe with the offer of a coalition government. He informed Thorpe that he had made preparations to apply for a loan from the IMF.

Thorpe turned down Heath's offer and he had to vacate Number 10 for Harold Wilson. Heath therefore never had the opportunity to go 'cap in hand' to the IMF, as he had fully intended to, and which is minuted and documented.

However despite the economic mess left by the Tories, Wilson was able to hang on for another two years before asking for an IMF loan. The Tories would have simply gone earlier !

Don't believe me ? Well don't take my word for it then......take the Daily Mail's word, I'm sure that staunch and unwavering loyal Tory newspaper is a reliable source, don't you ?

[url= http://www.****/news/article-1239930/How-Prime-Minister-Ted-Heath-nearly-went-International-Monetary-Fund-loan-1974.html ]How former Prime Minister Ted Heath nearly went to the International Monetary Fund for a loan in 1974[/url]

Quote :

[b][i]The Tory prime minister was preparing to go ‘cap in hand’ to the IMF and to take ‘unpleasant measures’, archives reveal.

It is an embarrassing revelation for the Tories, who still make political capital out of the 1976 crisis when Labour chancellor Denis Healey had to submit to IMF supervision to get a loan.

The minutes read: ‘On a Privy Councillor basis the prime minister told Mr Thorpe that preparations had been made for a drawing [a loan] on the IMF.’[/i][/b]

So nearly, but not quite......because the electorate kicked out the Tories ! 🙂

stavromuller - Member

De-regulation (brought in by Thatchers Government) meant the financial sector had free reign and was tightly not controlled by government. So how can successive governments be blamed for the financial industry so monumentally f***ing up? Unless you think Blair should have brought the financial industry to heel.

Brown called for less regulation. 🙂

What year did the mine close in Glyncorrwg?

that detail disables you from seeing what happens when a valley/village/town loses its only source of income ?

Believe theres many of people that have been waiting for this day
What a great day

Unless you think Blair should have brought the financial industry to heel

Pretty much, actually as chancellor it's Brown I have themost contempt for, rode the boom quite happily right upto the bust.

It seems that the people who voted her government in three times don't reside on mtb forums.

Guys for all the wrongs/rights she has been involved with, at the end of the day she will be missed by her family RIP

Yes, give them the respect which she denied those who died under the atrocious regimes she supported

I agree rowlapa....it's never nice to lose a loved one, and losing a parent must be incredibly tough, so my sympathies go out to them.

However, she was the one that chose to lead a public life and put herself incharge. Incurring the wrath of those whose life she ruined is fair game IMO. Yes she was just another pensioner that died of a stroke, but also was a hugely divisive figure that lived a large part of her life in the public eye shaping millions of lives-I fail to see why people whose life she's ruined should feel compelled to feel any great sympathy to her.

rode the boom quite happily right upto the bust.

Name a party or person that wouldn't do that.

 

You know how Regan dealt with problems in this period? He increased the debt window countless times.

Similar to New Labour. Increase public spending and reliance for boom or bust. It kept them popular but Maggies approach was the opposite.

But public spending rose under Thatcher

[img] [/img]

She was a decent woman with principles, and believed she was doing the best thing for the country.

I have a great distaste for many of her political actions and would never have voted for her, but RIP.

Charliemungus Libya? Saudi Arabia?

Public spending artifically kept Labour going.

Theres an art to it you know.

Its called a balanced economy.

Im out folks. Off to read some mags and buy a dessert. Peace

stumpypump and spongepad-- go play with each other--i'm off out for a party whey hey!!

Erm.. Chile, Cambodia

She was a decent woman with principles, and believed she was doing the best thing for the country.

That in itself is not worth anything, the same could be said for the long succession of South African Presidents

trailmonkey - Member

that detail disables you from seeing what happens when a valley/village/town loses its only source of income?

It's awful.
Which is why the unions should have accepted modernization and the inevitable few redundancies rather than put everyone out of work.

It seems that the people who voted her government in three times don't reside on mtb forums.

Hee we made rudebwoy cry!

It's awful.
Which is why the unions should have accepted modernization and the inevitable few redundancies rather than put everyone out of work.

the unions put everyone out of work ? how do you even imagine that there is any reality in that ?

nick1962 - Member

The majority of the British electorate voted against the Tories in all 3 elections she won.

No they didn't. 🙄

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be able to vote against Labour, but unfortunately all I can do is vote for someone else.

Probably the best biog of Thatcher was by Andrew Marr.

On a personal level she would have despised spiv bankers cutting and running with bonuses as well as the general populace going credit-crazy and getting up to their eyeballs in debt. As Marr said, 'that is the problem with freeing people. Relatively easy to know what you are setting them free from, more difficult to know what you are setting them free for'.

She polarised opinion, sure, but if it wasn't her, someone would have had to sort out the basket case country she inherited in 1979. If the unions hadn't rejected 'in place of strife' as fronted by Barbara Castle, there could have been a more gradual evolution rather than 'right lads, that's a few more years of not having to adapt'. By the way, they did reject it by forcing Wilson into a toothless compromise.

Unions striking for 40% pay rises, for Christ's sake. And the government caving in time after time. Scargill saying he would pay miners to dig mud. Somebody had to sort this rabble out.

Thatcher was bang on economy-wise. To my mind, the two major failings were a massive lack of flexibility when dealing with the IRA and the same with Europe (whilst not having the backing of her party in full).

Also easy to understand her inflexibility on a human level with the IRA, though. Not easy to be objective with people who have murdered close friends of yours (Airey Neave) and tried to murder you.

The poll tax wasn't brilliant, either.

Wouldn't wish death on anyone, but about as sad as when I went past Cambridge crematorium on my way home the day they disposed of Myra Hindley

trailmonkey - Member

the unions put everyone out of work? how do you even imagine that there is any reality in that?

Do you not know what demands the unions were making?
Have you no idea how unrealistic and unworkable those demands were?

Ps. you don't need to precede a question mark with a space. 🙂

Sorry I'm late!

YEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

None of the vitriol against her really matters.

She won. The unions lost. End of story.

Do you not know what demands the unions were making?
Have you no idea how unrealistic and unworkable those demands were

no, i don't see the num demands as being unrealistic but getting back to the bizzare point that you were trying to make, the unions in no way closed down any of the mines and you still haven't demonstrated how this possibly happened.

but then again you won't be able to because it's just nonsense.

sbob - Member

nick1962 - Member

The majority of the British electorate voted against the Tories in all 3 elections she won.

No they didn't.

What dannyh said - spot on. I am more than happy to say that I voted for Mrs T twice. Having left school in 1984 with not much in the way of qualification never out of a job, then or now nore were any of my mates. I think we knew we were on our own so we just got on with it.

I would also wonder how many of the predicable Thatcher bashers were even around at the time.

BlingBling please post when your mother/wife etc passes away and I will hold a suitable celebration - ****wit.

This place/post is not the same without TJ 😉

You know I really expected this to be lefties being rude rather than right wing [ or trolls] trying to get someone to react

pages and pages of them trying to goad a reaction with very little response.

If you/others post something as fact.

Can you please include a link/to the facts?

I am more than happy to say that I voted for Mrs T twice. Having left school in 1984 with not much in the way of qualification

I am more than happy to say that I voted for Mrs T twice. Having left school in 1984 with not much in the way of qualification

well she only stood in one election you could vote in so how exactly did that happen then?

😀

My first thought following the news of Thatchers death was to get back onto the STW forum for the first time in ages. Weird.

Junky stop labelling people with a different view point trolls, you're better and more eloquent than that, leave the childish insults to rudebwoy.

Quite right - college in 1983 at 18.

trailmonkey - Member

no, i don't see the num demands as being unrealistic

😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

That's either a joke or, no. I had better not say.
🙂

well she only stood in one election you could vote in so how exactly did that happen then?

It's obvious...

[img] [/img]

I am soooo jealous.

You went college with no quals, stayed for 2 years and left with no quals?
Hey! What edit?

sums up thatchers Britain as he then went and voted for her as well 😀

EDIT oh FFS now he went to college till 83 then back to school for another year to leave in 84 ??? I cannot keep up with this

Junky stop labelling people with a different view point trolls, you're better and more eloquent than that, leave the childish insults to rudebwoy

What you think some folk on here are really not trying to get a reaction with what they are saying- Its not rude to say this it is blindingly obvious tbh

Ps Is that a troll designed to get a reaction 😉

The old IMF argument z-11 ?

Apologies for the delay Ernie - been off having my tea.

So, your defence of Denis is that the previous lot created the economic mess, and he was burdened with trying to sort it out...

How Ironic 😉

BlingBling please post when your mother/wife etc passes away and I will hold a suitable celebration - ****wit.

🙁 Are you Mark Thatcher ?

I'm sorry Nipper, was blingbling's mum/wife a British PM that oversaw the destruction of millions of lives amongst the dashed working classes?

nick1962 - Member
The election results say otherwise!!

No they don't.
And as you deliberately snipped the part of my post that explained exactly what I meant:

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be able to vote against Labour, but unfortunately all I can do is vote for someone else.

and quite clearly too, you have been exposed and I can safely file your posts under "W".
🙂

I think this sums up some of the posts on here rather well 😉

[url] [/url]

Edited as comic contains a sweaty word.

W for winner sbob?

W?

Z-11?

Err - i belive i said not much in the way of qualifications - C&G in agri engineering.

No troll, rightly or wrongly there was nobody to rely on so you just got on with it - nothing else to do. Sit on your arse getting bitter or make something of it.

Junkyard - Member

You know I really expected this to be lefties being rude

Then you won't have been disappointed.
🙂