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Thanks for that somafunk.
Jon Stewart never lets me down - always funny and always hits the nail on the head
ernie_lynch - Member
Do you think he is sane?As you have pointed out he's obviously "a vulnerable person easily brainwashed"
I have to say Chewwy the compassion, empathy, and level of understanding, which you've expressed towards this alleged racist mass murderer is really quite touching, it's a side of your personality which you don't often show on here.
You're just a great big softie, aintcha ?
I am a fair person. 
The shooter could have a mental health issue just like the Austrian pilot. The latter is argued by the STW masses as mental health related so this case is not far off.
If his crime was down to just mental health issues, then surely he would have taken his wrath out on those directly around him; not travel 2 hours to a strange neighbourhood to murder complete strangers.
A lot of this discussion seems to be is missing a trick slightly.
Many people seem to assume that Americans must be crazy; however there is a huge racial dimension to this in the U.S.
Nate Silver (statistical bloke) wrote about this yesterday [url= http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/black-americans-are-killed-at-12-times-the-rate-of-people-in-other-developed-countries/ ]here.[/url]
There is a lot to think about in there but one thing I take away is that for white Americans those stats might explain why they see no real "cost" for their gun ownership. Their murder rate is pretty average and guns make them feel safer so apart from occasional major events (which can increase fear and make guns more popular with some) why should they care?
For black Americans the story is vastly different. But if the majority (white) population of gun owners don't see a problem what is going to change?
"At some point we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence doesn't happen in other advanced countries... with this kind of frequency."
I wouldn't agree that a country with the gun laws and murder rate can be described as an "advanced country".
mikey74 - MemberIf his crime was down to just mental health issues, then surely he would have taken his wrath out on those directly around him; not travel 2 hours to a strange neighbourhood to murder complete strangers.
The Austrian pilot took everyone with him.
The US college ground shooters shot everyone in sight.
Those victims were mostly strangers although the killers might have known them but not as a friend. The killers planned everything carefully to act on ...
They were all considered to be mentally unstable so this case is not far off.
For black Americans the story is vastly different. But if the majority (white) population of gun owners don't see a problem what is going to change?
It's a valid question - what the article doesn't explore however is the race of the perpetrator, from the available data it seems that the greatest threat to young black Americans is overwhelmingly other young black Americans, so we get into issues of poverty, social exclusion and drugs (none of which are exclusively problems of black American society of course)
in fact if anything this shooting is remarkable for its racial overtones. IIRC it's something like 93% of homicides with black victims are intraracial (and about 84% of white victims are white/white murders)
from the available data it seems that the greatest threat to young black Americans is overwhelmingly other young black Americans,
Its a matter of a frame of reference really. The problem with the gun debate is you only look at actions carried out using one tool. If you look at black on black homicide you're only looking at one action (murder) carried out with one tool (a gun) and ignoring other violent acts or self-destructive acts across a society and ignoring the other things someone might do with something like a gun - such as commit suicide.
Freakenomics did an [url= http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-the-suicide-paradox/ ]interesting item on suicide[/url] and the differences in suicide rates between countries, cultures and classes. The point of it was that suicide is one of the symptoms of unhappiness in a society but not the only one. Unhappiness expresses itself in many self-destructive ways - carelessness, addiction, mental illness, self harm, poor diet and exercise, criminality and victimhood - theres a huge spectrum. In the US if you you're white and unhappy you tend to turn that unhappiness in on yourself as socially and politically you have the upper hand, if life isn't as you want it then you blame yourself. If you're black and unhappy then people externalise that and lash out. Shame and anger. White men people commit suicide, black men get murdered - they get themselves in harms way but the root causes are the same.
"The American suicide belt is comprised of about ten western states, this sort of wide longitudinal swath running from Idaho and Montana down to Arizona and New Mexico. … So, yes the inner mountain west is a place that is disproportionately populated by middle-aged and aging white men, single, unattached, often unemployed with access to guns."
"There are just three places in the U.S. where the overall homicide rate is higher than the suicide rate: Louisiana, Maryland and the District of Columbia. It’s not a coincidence that these are also places with large African-American populations."
The suicide rate in the US is pretty much double the homicide rate. The suicide rate is also about double that of the uk
Very interesting maccruiskeen
Interesting thing about US suicide rate is that its on a par with germany and much lower than France, not countries that you would pin as having huge societal problems like health inequalities and widespread poverty.
Because talking about gun control is such a vote winner in the US ?Edit: Yes. In his views.
Are you saying here that Obama thinks he will win votes by advocating gun control? I bet he doesn't.
Anyway, the 'guns don't kill people, people do' argument always strikes me as the same as pointing out that falling from a great height doesn't kill you, it's hitting the ground that's the problem. Ir might be true, but ultimately it's a pointelss distinction to make with a straight face. (See also: speeding isn't a problem, it's not being able to stop/react in time that gets you.)
The shooting was probably over in a few seconds anyway so I don't buy that having everyone waving guns around without a clue what's going on would have meant stopping the killing earlier.
MrSalmon - MemberAnyway, the 'guns don't kill people, people do' argument always strikes me as the same as pointing out that falling from a great height doesn't kill you, it's hitting the ground that's the problem.
Wrong. If you [u]jump [/u]from a great height you will probably died, however if you do not jump then a great height is just a great height that is dangerous. Hitting the ground requires the person to jump and the person has to be determined to carry out such act for whatever reasons.
If there are many people jumping from bridges to kill themselves do you lower the bridge or simply dismantle the bridge coz it's killing people ... hmmm ...? 🙄
Are you saying here that Obama thinks he will win votes by advocating gun control? I bet he doesn't.
You are all talking as if he can be elected again. He can't. He's already been elected twice. Personally, I think they should make an exception, but thems the rules.
although the killers might have known them but not as a friend
But there lies the crux of the matter: They don't have to be friends, just things they see every day.
In the examples you mention, the victims were easy targets. They could act on impulse.
This shooting required a 2 hour drive, followed by patiently sitting in on a prayer meeting for two hours. Then firing, stopping to reload 5 times. That takes an extra level of determination.
I'm not saying he doesn't have a mental illness, just that this attack demonstrates a high level of hatred towards a particular group.
I am wondering why American citizens are not allowed to own nuclear weapons or biological weapons?
After all, people commit genocide, not weapons of mass destruction.