[Closed] That lovely cotton bag you use because plactic ones are a bad thing?

I use a ruck sack.

I’ve used that quite a lot.

The plastic bag charge we have seems fine to me. Anecdotally its massively reduced the number of plastic bags drifting around town but you can still get them if you need them. I just use mine until they break.

No mention of longer term impact of discarded plastic vs cotton on the environment?

Slightly misleading, the issue isn't the climate change, or water usage. It's what do you do with one plastic bag, let alone 20,000 of them.

Spookily I was just reading this morning about this issue in a behavioural economics context.
Plastic v cloth v paper bags

Yes, putting "water use, energy use, etc" doesn't really cut it when you're trying to make the chart useful.
For example, stating that an organic cotton bag is 3x more environmentally harmful than a conventional cotton bag means it can't be taking wider implications into consideration.

Data supplied by the Single Use Plastic Bag marketing board? Might send a link this to Tim Harford on Radio 4's More or Less.

I've just spotted the date on that article...

[although all the links seem legit, tbf]

The full report is available in English here:
https://mst.dk/service/publikationer/publikationsarkiv/2018/mar/plastposer-lca/

so what should we use?
or should I be weaving a bag from fallen leaves and slug mucus?

There's also a cultural aspect.

It wasn't long ago the image people might have wanted to project was one of conspicuous consumption. Now it's cool to carry round a reusable bag, drink from a reusable bottle etc. And once you start thinking about that it'll trickle into all your other decision making.

Reading the report - the difference from the organic vs conventional cotton figures is basically an assumed lower yield of 38% from the same land with an adjustment for the fact that each bag used slightly more organic cotton in manufacture than conventional.

I keep seeing that they incinerate each bag at end of life, but I can't see if this figure is included in the findings - i.e. energy use to incinerate.

My take away is - plastic bag until it breaks but disposed of/recycled in a responsible way.

The Article that drain links to suggests woven plastic, I think.

I find it hard to believe that organic cotton requires three times more energy and water than conventional cotton.

But as others have said, the study misses the point. Plastics end up in the stomachs of whales because people throw plastics away. The solution is to stop making and using products that are designed to be thrown away. If consumers are concerned about their carbon footprint then I suggest that their choice of shopping bag material is likely far less significant than the shopping it contains.

I'm not saying you shouldn't worry about your shopping bags but maybe read this.

It's been said. The plastic bag issue isn't one of energy consumption, it's about waste.

And why take the extremes? Why aren't they highlighting that a polyester bag only needs to be used 35 times to break even? I've got polyester bags that are that old and get used twice a week. My favourite one are 8 year old woven plastic ones that we got from Germany, but they are beginning to fray in a few places now.

I make cotton shopping bags. Usually from off cuts of fabric at work. Or ends of fabric rolls.

They can be washed and used hundred if not thousands of times. Also can be composted at the end of their life.

clearly there’s issues around disposal of plastics

I believe this is the issue.

I don't see many sea birds caught up in or starved to death eating organinc cotton shopping bags. Seen lots of them dead due to platsic though. Same with the sea and oceans. Full of plastic, from microplastics being mistaken for algae and entering the food chain, right up to larger pieces entangling creatures.

I can’t help thinking that this report is basically bogus, because the real issue is with long-term plastic pollution and micro plastics down to the level of plankton; plastic waste has been found in the very deepest part of the world’s oceans, whereas cotton is, by its very nature, biodegradable.

deleted

It seems odd that Patagonia did an environmental audit of all of its products and concluded that the most damaging was non organic cotton. So they only use organic cotton.

80% of ocean plastic is discharged by 10 rivers. Non are in Europe

80% of ocean plastic is discharged by 10 rivers. Non are in Europe

However some of that plastic discharged by those rivers will be European, due to exporting of waste for "recycling"

Doesn't really matter where it's being discharged once it's in the oceans.

However some of that plastic discharged by those rivers will be European, due to exporting of waste for “recycling”

Guardian news

Malaysia bans 'recycled' waste

Philippines ships 69 containers of dumped rubbish back to Canada

And why take the extremes? Why aren’t they highlighting that a polyester bag only needs to be used 35 times to break even? I’ve got polyester bags that are that old and get used twice a week. My favourite one are 8 year old woven plastic ones that we got from Germany, but they are beginning to fray in a few places now.

We’ve got some Saino’s ones that are >10yo.

What about jute bags?

I don't know about you guys but I collect all my plastic bags and then dump them in the ocean in order to harm marine wildlife.
Thank goodness Caroline Lucas is on hand to hound me until I change my evil ways.

And the electric/hybrid car fad doesn't result in planet earth having less pollution.

I don’t know about you guys but I collect all my plastic bags and then dump them in the ocean in order to harm marine wildlife.

It might not be you, but someone is. Look around you, the things are everywhere. My guess is that here the majority of them are just dropped or blown away.

And the electric/hybrid car fad doesn’t result in planet earth having less pollution.

Those 'articles' you've read are written by people being paid by the oil industry grimep.

EVs are an important tool to create a more sustainable personal transport industry, but a tool needs to be used well.

Awwwww! GrimeP wants his belly tickled look at him being all cute.

Pollution Vs climate change, they are different issues. Both very bad although I tend to feel one is potentially catastrophic, but it's really hard to compare the two and thus really hard to say cotton is better/worse than plastic. It's an example of incomplete thinking though and the same must apply over over. How much energy to make, wash, wash.. Eventually recycle a glass milk bottle and how much energy to transport its weight compared to the energy to make and use a single use plastic milk bottle and recycle? Is got to be good to reduce unnecessary consumption/packing, and the reuse things sometimes, and recycling as part of a thought through waste system, but knee jerk moves often have unexpected consequences.

I also would be intrigued to know if as a nation we now consume more waste bin bags. Have we swapped a shopping bag that often then got reused as a waste bag, for a cotton bag and as much plastic off to landfill as before by buying bin bags.

I can’t help thinking that this report is basically bogus, because the real issue is with long-term plastic pollution and micro plastics down to the level of plankton; plastic waste has been found in the very deepest part of the world’s oceans, whereas cotton is, by its very nature, biodegradable.

Well that doesn't make it bogus, the point it makes is valid (although obviously I have not analysed their data to know if the specifics are correct), switching from one product to another because it seems more environmentally friendly isn't necessarily true - often there is a hidden impact. They are not the first people to have pointed this out - a group at Heriot Watt University were talking about the relative impact of glass v's plastic bottles well over a year ago. It takes a lot of energy to melt sand, glass is heavy to transport etc... The same was true in the push from petrol to diesel - better CO2, worse NOx and particulates. Plastics, even single use plastics, are not necessarily as fundamentally evil as the media seems to portray them. Equally an organic cotton bag, is not necessarily as "eco" as its virtue signalling might suggest.