Isn't it more likely incitement to racial hatred, and I don't think church views really do that.
Haven't heard anything yet from the brewery or other suppliers. But I think that if they drop them from their client list that might do more for removing such a hated display.
If the law was what you wanted it to be, then the result would be that people who hold views that a majority of people would find distressing or offensive would not be able to express them in public. That is, in other words, trying to insulate everyone from any offensive or distressing viewpoint with the power of the criminal law.
.. on a point like a public display of racist symbols or speech it's so obvious the effect it would have on someone that intent may be given, ignorance is no defence. You'd get off if you were a gentle old lady with an 1980s marmalade brand pin badge on your coat, but a landlord who owns a Britain First T-shirt?
So when it comes to direct racism I expect it's already the case? (your username and quoting law suggests maybe you can answer that better than I can).
If your racist just come out and say it
Indeed. Do they think they are being clever or just too gutless to admit what they are?
Because “grown man doesn’t buy his own clothes or do the washing” is a huge stretch of the imagination.
So it's either him or his wife that's racist then because one of them gave that t-shirt house space.
“A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he— (a)uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or (b)displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress…”
I'd say their follow up and previous more than cover the intent aspect.
CAMRA can GTF as well if that's the sort of shitholes that make the cut.
CAMRA lost their way years ago. The best real ale pub near me with 8 ale taps all superbly kept was removed from their lists for having a nitrokeg scrumpy tap instead of having it live. But another pub with far less ale taps and not as well kept was given an excellent rating
So it’s either him or his wife that’s racist then because one of them gave that t-shirt house space.
I'm not sure it's an either situation. Likely both I'd suspect.
I just don't think that "it was convenient" is in anyway an unlikely explanation as to why he happened to be wearing it. Much the same as if he'd been wearing a BLM t-shirt or a unicorn one it wouldn't have meant he isn't a racist.
Oh yeah there's that but TBF I couldn't really care about beer politics.
Not looked but assuming the establishment has a flat roof?
Not looked but assuming the establishment has a flat roof?
nope, grade 2 listed. Nice building.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hart,_Grays
Not looked but assuming the establishment has a flat roof?
That's some solid classism right there.
They're just as likely to be bastions of socialism as fascism.
nope, grade 2 listed. Nice building.
That is grade 2 listed? Blimey - seems a stretch. Scarily similar looking to the (former) White Hart pub near where I used to live ( https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/20590624.support-plan-convert-white-hart-pub-portchester/) Also, coincidentally a den of flag of St George waving not to subtle racists back in the day.
CAMRA can GTF as well if that’s the sort of shitholes that make the cut.
Camra have said they are looking into it and have updated its guide.
I am guessing the local branch isnt overly welcoming towards those who dont fit the stereotype and may be due some central intervention.
That’s some solid classism right there.
Grew up on a West Yorkshire council estate and my stepdad was a miner. T’was supposed to be a lighthearted jibe but I forgot where I am. Must be serious at all times.
Edit - comprehension failure on my behalf 😂
Subjects of OP are ****s though.
Depressing but not surprising. A lot of folk get stuck in their ways as they get older. Will some of the over 65’s possibly have nostalgia for the dolls? Not saying that’s right and buying, selling or displaying them is wrong in my opinion.
Those Marmalade peddling bastards at Robinsons are probably responsible for the percentages in the last two groups.
They can't be racist, they have a holiday home in Turkey!
Those Marmalade peddling bastards at Robinsons are probably responsible for the percentages in the last two groups.
Was going to say the same. With my 2020s head I can't even conceive that a company would have that as their logo. But as a child I don't remember it even being a thing to have an issue about (in fact I remember collecting the lids or tokens or something to send off - no idea what for). The only positive in those figures is that the majority of people below 24 had no opinion - presumably because they had no idea what one was. If you told that group of people that there was a TV show called The Black and White Minstrel Show in the UK and it didn't stop until 1978 and that Lenny Henry would have felt he had now choice but be a guest on it, they would think you were mad. In a perverse way the fact that this pub is news worthy at all is progress of sorts.
Kinda depressing
Not depressing at all - my parents wouldn't have a clue about the racist aspects of golliwog, they were just kids toys to them. I had one as a kid.
Not depressing at all – my parents wouldn’t have a clue about the racist aspects of golliwog, they were just kids toys to them. I had one as a kid.
But, I guess the key question is - on being told that they were now considered by many as grossly offensive would they (or my mum come to that) a - respect that opinion and no longer verbalise their views to the contrary(or give it the 'oh, don't be daft' line) or b- actually change their opinion based on new information? I think doing neither of the above is where the inflexibility of age is most revealed.
As a child of the 70s we didn't think there was anything wrong with Golliwogs.
The key words here are didn't think.
Interesting how they’ve grouped the ages in that survey.
Yeah, I didn't spot that at first glance...
Reading between the lines, economically active people and up and comming students (next generations ecomomically active people) I would say a clear majority think its racist.
Strange hill to die on if they insist on displaying what a lot of people consider to be racist or at best old fasioned and distastefull.
But, I guess the key question is – on being told that they were now considered by many as grossly offensive would they (or my mum come to that) a – respect that opinion and no longer verbalise their views to the contrary(or give it the ‘oh, don’t be daft’ line) or b- actually change their opinion based on new information? I think doing neither of the above is where the inflexibility of age is most revealed.
My rightwing relatives took option C Make a point of owning a golly and proudly flaunting it declaring loudly "its not racist"
Wearing that specific t-shirt on that specific date probably was just random convenience.
Owning it, that's the racism. And the fact that he'd wear it randomly rather than, say, only when dressing up as a racist for a fancy dress party.
And it's hardly the only bit of racist paraphernalia in the household.
I think we had gollywogs back in my childhood, possibly already sightly sanitised to gollys. Robinsons' jam had them on the logo. People learn, hopefully.
"Robertson’s finally dropped the golly from its packaging in 2001."
Didn't realise it had lasted that long.
Its not a pub I'd drink in...or if I did I would stop drinking in it.
I dunno whether it's legally racist, as in a criminal offence, that's probably pushing it a bit, but the fact they want to display such things kinda speaks volumes about the kind of people they are, knowing that a lot of people will find it very distastefull. And they are not my kinda people.
your username and quoting law suggests maybe you can answer that better than I can
Oh no, don't be misled, my username is just a tribute to my terrible taste in TV.
“Robertson’s finally dropped the golly from its packaging in 2001.”
Didn’t realise it had lasted that long.
Jesus! That’s bad. How did it take until 2001? I’m assuming that everyone in charge of Marmalade marketing was either racist or white, old and in the “it’s just a character camp’
Wearing that specific t-shirt on that specific date probably was just random convenience.
Owning it, that’s the racism.
Bingo.
"I'm not really a Nazi, it was just that the SS uniform was conveniently nearby that day." Oh, this white robe and pointy-headed hood? Just roomy and comfortable.
Who the **** has a Britain First tee-shirt just lying around by accident? That's up there with "I just happened to be walking around the house naked, tripped and fell inside your sister."
He's blatantly an active racist; she just comes across as a ****wit.
He’s blatantly an active racist; she just comes across as a ****wit.
Its brilliant that she even offered it as an excuse. Surely its a time to keep quiet.
It’s not illegal in this country to be a racist.
Being racist in a public office which is likely to cause distress or offence would cover it.
So, Suella Braverman, then
(in fact I remember collecting the lids or tokens or something to send off – no idea what for).
Little enamelled badges of gollies doing things like playing cricket, tennis, etc. it was quite the thing to try to collect as many as possible. I think I’ve got a couple stashed away upstairs somewhere, with a load of other badges I collected and used to wear on various jackets in the dim, distant past.
Who the **** has a Britain First tee-shirt just lying around by accident? That’s up there with “I just happened to be walking around the house naked, tripped and fell inside your sister.”
I suspect that she might be deliberately taking the piss. It would appear that they have been taking the piss for years:
Mr Ryley's Facebook account also commented "they used to hang them in Mississippi years ago" when his wife asked "are you sure this is legal lol" after he posted a photo of the golliwogs displayed in the pub.
"are you sure this is legal lol" suggests that they know exactly what they are doing and that they find it funny.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/pub-landlady-golliwogs-britain-first/
If you look at the photos in the link you can see why Ryley might need plenty of shirts to change into, he's appears as sweaty as a nonce caught by paedophile hunters.
It does remind me of that time I fell over in the shower and a fascist tshirt went right up my bum though
My mum's got a golliwog, was given to her by her granddad. Does that make her a nazi?
If she gets told by a young person that it's racist, and she doesn't think it is - why does that young person's view get to trump hers? Can a treasured childhood toy be racist, just because it is interpreted that way by someone else?
I went into a pub in Leeds a couple of weekends back and there was a picture of a girl 80's-style with her tits out. We all laughed at the throwback. But if someone came in and complained that they were offended because it was sexist, would the police come and take it away and prosecute?
What if they had a sign saying "if you don't like the tits, feel free to leave of your own accord"?
Oh look, someone's not had some attention recently...
Tits are definitely better than racism.
50-64s
Racist: 23%
Not Racist: 61%
I am a bit flabergasted that so many of my age group peers don't realise that it is racist (or don't want to state that they know it is), did they conduct the poll at a druid cross burning ceremony. I think it was a conclusion I came to back in the late 80's or early 90's and it isn't as if I was mentally encaged with social issues during that period.
If she gets told by a young person that it’s racist, and she doesn’t think it is – why does that young person’s view get to trump hers? Can a treasured childhood toy be racist, just because it is interpreted that way by someone else?
Yes and yes. Times change and we hopefully become more enlightened. It’s not just a toy it’s an extreme caricature from a less enlightened time. I’m not young and I know that.
If she gets told by a young person that it’s racist, and she doesn’t think it is – why does that young person’s view get to trump hers?
I'd say it's because the owner of the doll isn't the one who can say whether it's racist or not, and the young person here understands that point and has listened. (edit, it's that cartoon on the prev page)
Listening to others rather than our own thoughts is the thing here, I think it's a mistake to go through life looking for answers to everything internally rather than accepting we can't know everything. We need to say 'I don't know?' more. Society gets more understanding in some ways over time (as much as it seems more polarised generally), sometimes we learn by being wrong and having it pointed out, it's just the nature of change isn't it.
I am a bit flabergasted that so many of my age group peers don’t realise that it is racist (or don’t want to state that they know it is), did they conduct the poll at a druid cross burning ceremony. I think it was a conclusion I came to back in the late 80’s or early 90’s and it isn’t as if I was mentally encaged with social issues during that period.
Nah doesn’t surprise me, some people just seem to be unable/don’t want to move with the times.
I didn’t have a golliwog as a kid as they were crap and didn’t really read ennnie blyton as it was a bit old school in the ‘70s.
TBH I’d have probably preferred a ss knife and flag as nazi memorabilia was popular but didn’t always indicate an affiliation to to the nf.
If I had any I probably wouldn’t be hanging it up in my pub nowadays as it would probably encourage the wrong type of clientele.
I am a bit flabergasted that so many of my age group peers don’t realise that it is racist
I'm not, most people of that age group were brought up to believe that golliwogs were just lovable cuddly toys. Since their childhoods golliwogs have disappeared and they have become a distant nostalgic memory.
I wouldn't read too much into the veiws of the average person on the matter. Although in the case of the Essex pub landlord I don't think there is much doubt that his decision to display a collection of golliwogs, some hanging by the neck from wooden beams, was driven by crass racism. I hope he is fined and loses his license.
Btw only 13% more young people thought golliwogs were racist than your age group. The vast majority, two thirds, had no opinion on the matter or thought they weren't racist:
18-24s
Racist: 36%
Not Racist: 13%
Although that could reflect the fact that many don't know what golliwogs are.
This is quite interesting:
https://www.markpack.org.uk/170836/essex-pub-dispute-do-people-really-still-think-golliwogs-are-ok/
Do you think it is or is not racist to sell or display a golliwog doll?
Isn't this grossly underportraying the behaviour under examination though?
Isn't the correct question:
Do you think it is racist to sell or display a golliwog doll hanging by the neck from wooden beams, and then to say "well they used to do it in mississippi"
Or am I overreacting?
If she gets told by a young person that it’s racist, and she doesn’t think it is – why does that young person’s view get to trump hers?
The thing you have to realise is, whether you like it or not, old people die and the oft-vilified "young people" will become the norm.
That being the case, who should we be world-building for? Even if they're wrong, even if they're triggered lefty Walter The Softy hand-wringing yogurt-knitting snowflakes, they'll be here longer than we will.
Do you think it is racist to sell or display a golliwog doll hanging by the neck from wooden beams, and then to say “well they used to do it in mississippi”
Not that it's necessarily a great deal better, but I initially interpreted "do it" to mean they hanged black people in Mississippi. Having then read the article and seen the photos I think "it" is having gollies on display and "hanging by the neck" is something of a leap.
They might well be racist assholes, but hyperbole helps them rather than hinders.