Forum menu
The average annual mileage for a car in the UK is 7900 miles.
While I don't doubt that there some people must exist doing 60k+ miles a year commuting (and paying £10k+ out of pocket in fuel and maintenance just to get to work?) or as part of their job (travelling salespeople, etc) it's way out in the fringes.
Most people commute fairly modest distances, don't have family and friends spread out over the country, or do a hobby that means they need to drive the length of the country for a weekend away. EVs will increasingly appeal to them because of the low running costs, how pleasant they are to drive, and the convenience of not needing to stop at a petrol station once or twice a month. Maybe if they have a once or twice a year longer trip they'll take the minor inconvenience of needing to rapid charge on the way.
Those who have more extreme needs for continuous high-speed running will go on using cars that burn petrol or diesel (maybe hydrogen if that ever goes anywhere).
As I said, our next car (and our only family car) in 18 months will be an EV. Our needs are met by the range of current cars (with the odd rapid charge a few times a year), and I just prefer how they drive.
Commuters doing over 250 miles a day?
I did know a couple of people who did this. Absolutely nuts. They seem to spend most of the day working or driving. Even worse than on a train since at least there (in theory if you aint standing) you can at least do something else.
Well, everyone has to have a special skill...
Lots of EVs over here in .se, but there are incentives from the government and the infrastructure is getting in place a lot more than in the UK, with charging points all over the place and not just in service stations.
For me, it would make sense if I was commuting within town or from just outside and we are actively looking for a hybrid or range extended EV for the next car. But... (and, like Nemo said, it's a big but) the price differential between a new-ish EV and the same age of petrol car (with space for dogs and luggage), even taking into account the drop in tax, is just too big to ignore.
I'm not even sure that our garage has an EV charging point in, so the convenience factor of letting it charge overnight would be spoiled by having to find a charge point (that does not have a million 'Drive Now' i3s around it) that is within walking distance of home. Even combining charging and evening dog walk is tricky if the nearest one is a long walk away.
I’m not even sure that our garage has an EV charging point in, so the convenience factor of letting it charge overnight would be spoiled by having to find a charge point
Or you could just fit one.
I’m not even sure that our garage has an EV
Yeah mine doesn’t so for now it plugs into a standard socket until I get around to fitting one. It was very difficult plugging it into the socket but I managed it in the end.
Plenty of services such as ambulances or police cover more than 250miles a day
Not really no, we’ve a few and it’s not unknown for me to in my manager’s car but given all our vehicles plug into a charge point anyway when back on base it wouldn’t be to difficult. We’ve even trialed them and have some pool cars that are EV. Anyway enough facts should I spout some made up stuff?
Ahh well, you are so fascinated by the subject you should all buy EVs and prove to us that you are
a) worthy
b) apply what you’ve written to your action
Doubt you’ll do either, becuse like most people they don’t trust the EV vehicles (yet) becuse of the statements ive made.
That’s exactly what I’ve done.
I bought an i3. It made it to Cumbria from Bristol in 5hours with a30min stop for coffee and recharge. On the way back we used its REX and did the whole journey without stopping. 270miles.
We’re going to Cornwall in August, i’ll be taking the i3. It’ll do the whole journey on its battery and ill recharge when i get there. 150miles.
Drove to london and back the other day - due to traffic and congestion, i did the
whole return journey on the battery - 180miles.
EVs are here, the infrastructure is increasing rapidly. As more people buy EVs, more money is to be made from installing places to charge them and so more companies will install chargers. Personally, i love using Ikea charge points - theyre ussually close to the motorway, and are free if yiu buy something from ikea.
Loads of EVs in Cambridge, I cycle past three Nissan Volts and one Tesla on my way to work, all within 500 yards of the house...
More and more EVs appearing in the work car parks as well...
My wife has colleagues who take EVs as company cars (as their only car) and all seem to manage even collecting kids from Universities 200+ miles away - they just recharge at a service station half way whilst having a cup of tea....
Mike, it's a communal garage that is not owned by me or even in my building, so that's not an option. Hell, it took us three months just to get a parking space in it!
That's the kind of problem a lot of people face in this part of the world. If you have to use the streets to park, getting a charge point fitted may not help because you can never be sure of where you will find a space.
In other news, I saw a story about non-production Tesla employees being drafted in to help with Model 3 production: https://nordic.businessinsider.com/tesla-flying-employees-to-help-model-3-production-report-2018-7?r=UK&IR=T
That’s the kind of problem a lot of people face in this part of the world.
Is that a particular bit? Whats the building management view on charging points?
At no point has anybody claimed it's a compete solution right now, however it is for a great number of people who like to make up excuses like their 500 mile commutes to say it will never work. For anybody with a drive or garage doing up to 100 miles each way there is no range anxiety or hassle there
Good to see they’re not even slightly ****ed about sorting the quality out then
Mike, it’s a communal garage that is not owned by me or even in my building, so that’s not an option. Hell, it took us three months just to get a parking space in it!
They’re missing a trick there they could fit one that uses a card system and make an income. My wife works for the nhs too, here trust have been increasing the number of chargers. Staff can use them for free any pubic who use them are charged £1, in the evenings quite taxis use them which helps provide an income. They’re so popular now even with the increased chargers my wife sometimes has park in normal space and the car on a lunchtime. Staff are charged if they leave one on charge for more than 5 hours which helps everyone get a chance.
Or you could just fit one.
not everyone lives in a bog standard UK 2.3 children 3 bedroom suburban semi with a driveway and garage.
In my old parking it would have been physically impossible.
In my new, current parking, the best I can do is persuade the owner to install charge points, and amend the contract accordingly so that costs are recovered.
Or plug a 50m+ extension lead in to my kitchen, dangle it out the window, down 2 storeys, across neighbour's flat roof, down 1 more storey, across 8 bays of car port roof, and dangle it down another 10 ft or so to the car.
Or hope that the 2 whole parking spaces in the 6 storey multistorey car park at work are free to use.
If EV becomes compulsory in town, it'll be easier for me to scrap car and sign up for a car sharing scheme.
Rental car for every long distance journey is a pita.
"If EV becomes compulsory in town, it’ll be easier for me to scrap car and sign up for a car sharing scheme."
tbh that will benifit the majority of folks if done right.
I must admit i was tempted when i first saw the twizy out in the france around the mountain resorts as a hire to get around rather than the traditional hire moped... - i thought they looked like the ideal solution to personal local journey transport for those that lack balance.
i bought an electric bike instead.
This video is from 2009:
That’s a Tesla roadster, based on a Lotus Elise with a battery and motor adapted to fit into an ICE chassis dating back to the mid-nineties. It looks a little amateurish by today's standards; range isn’t great and it’s a bit Heath Robinson in execution.
Compare with this:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/tesla/model-3/first-drives/tesla-model-3-2018-review
Thats nine years of progress, a purpose designed EV platform with three more seats, a boot, a longer range, better build quality and a third of the price of the roadster.
If I had the means to spend £33k on a car, this is what I’d buy, or more accurately for a tenner a fill up, this is what I’d lease for three years.
Rental car for every long distance journey is a pita.
And not to labour a point, how often do you go over 250/300 miles with no chance to stop?
For ref from Manchester London is 205 miles, Dover 296, Fort William taking it a little out at 320
More importantly how often do most people do a sporadic journey like that? Most don't at all, if you did it in the cities the delivered hire cars will kick off more (some do already), if there is a market then stuff changes.
As I've said before if you start with the mindset that an EV/Transport solution must replace exactly what you have now people will miss some really good solutions to problems.
I'm in the commute over 250 miles camp, 130 miles each way, so would have time to charge it while at work, not a problem as long as charge points are available. I also do regular long trips over 250 miles, but I'm never in a rush, always try and plan my trips / leaving times etc to avoid traffic where possible. I don't mind stopping off for a 45 minute break, so could top up when necessary. 3 hours would be too long, but 45 mins charge top up would be fine. Obviously commercial drivers don't have the same luxury, so can see why this may not be an option.
I never see EV as the end of ICE, just a more efficient greener option. Maybe in the very long term it will be a replacement, but none of us really know.
I would get one but it really is the cost difference holding me back. I'm not into labels/badges and would drive a Nissan Leaf, but its close to £30k for what is quite a fugly looking thing. Its also a bit on the small side as well. The Leaf appears to have a real world range of approx. 150 miles, possibly a touch close for me with my commute. The 2019 60KW Leaf appears to cover my commute, but coming out in 2019, still to small for a family car in my view.
Just looked at second hand Tesla's, £50k for a 3 year old one. A very quick Google (first page I looked at), shows a lease cost of just over £1k for a 2016 Model S 100KW Dual Motor, after a £10k deposit. I honestly think the initial outlay is what is putting people off.
I'm amused by the "physically impossible" stuff. This country electrified millions of homes from scratch between WW1 and WW2. But getting power a short distance from an electrified building to a parking space? Whoa, that'll be a major challenge!
all EV is is transferring the pollution. Unless the power is coming from renewable, combined cycle or nuclear it is still pretty poor.
excellent, my commute would be a much nicer ride without a source of pollution every 3 metres around me. Also living in Scotland the energy is already largely renewable and in the future when all cars are electric will probably be entirely low carbon
If EV becomes compulsory in town, it’ll be easier for me to scrap car and sign up for a car sharing scheme.
Or your landlord fits charging points.
Just looked at second hand Tesla’s, £50k for a 3 year old one. A very quick Google (first page I looked at), shows a lease cost of just over £1k for a 2016 Model S 100KW Dual Motor, after a £10k deposit. I honestly think the initial outlay is what is putting people off.
That's like looking at a BMX M5 and saying cars are too expensive. The Model S 1000D is their top of the range, most expensive model. Most EV cars around Cambridge are Nissan things with 30KW batteries....
yes but if we take quotes out of context then we can make anyone look silly....
if you included the full quote youll see he already talked about the nissan which frankly is still silly money for what amounts to a small car.
I'm very disappointed, but not surprised, that there is no government approved design of kerb-side charging. 1000s will need to be installed. If I was an investor, I'd be looking at it v closely.
Commuters doing over 250 miles a day? Healthcare workers doing over 250 miles a day – I know that one is utterly wrong.
I work in Healthcare. I did 210 miles on Monday, same again Tuesday, and today I've done 83, I've at least a 230 mile journey tomorrow, and probably nothing on Friday.
all EV is is transferring the pollution. Unless the power is coming from renewable, combined cycle or nuclear it is still pretty poor. Until all new builds (houses, offices, car parks) are mandated to have solar cells, batteries and charging points we are not approaching serious levels of government interest
Whilst it is true that it would be better if renewables were used for generating power to state that going electric just moves pollution misses the very significant point that fossil fuel power stations are much more efficient that the internal combustion engine so overall the fuel usage would be lower. Additionally concentrating pollution in one specific place makes it easier to do something about.
I work in Healthcare. I did 210 miles on Monday, same again Tuesday, and today I’ve done 83, I’ve at least a 230 mile journey tomorrow, and probably nothing on Friday.
So not over 250 miles 😉 Are you the exception or the rule?
I work in Healthcare. I did 210 miles on Monday, same again Tuesday, and today I’ve done 83, I’ve at least a 230 mile journey tomorrow, and probably nothing on Friday.
So you'd need to recharge at some time tomorrow if cars were all electric. But not the other days. There's a lot of "plenty of"s going on here.
all EV is is transferring the pollution
Well, what it's really doing is decoupling the vehicle from the power source. Then if renewables take up more of the generating load, transport automagically becomes more renewables based. If we suddenly crack the 'perpetually 10 years out' problem of fusion power or something else, the transport fleet benefits from that too. At the moment, if someone came up with a magic reactor or some other way of generating lots of power cleanly it would have pretty minimal impact on transport pollution.
I've just started working for Pod Point (EV charging company), so this thread is interesting.
If you have time, please watch this video with Robert Llewellyn and Pod Point's CEO discussing barriers to EV adoption.
nickc - what do you do in healthcare 'cos in my experience that is a very unusual mileage. When I was a district nurse I did under 30 miles a day. Our pharmacy delivery isw in an EV and he spends all day driving delivering stuff.
Hi Footflaps, I was being specific to two cars that are regarded as suited for longer distances. As I mentioned I have a 260 mile commute (270 when I go to the gym). Only 130 miles to work, but I want to not have to worry about what happens if there is an accident and I'm sat in traffic, do I have to turn the air con off, what if I'm re-routed etc.
I've nothing against them, in fact I would prefer to have one, but it has to meet my needs. My own opinion is for 90% of use cases, they would be ideal. My wife for example, she only does the town run around jobs - maybe 20 miles a day, then the current crop would suit her. But they are expensive. Why would I pay £27k for the Leaf? The BMW i3 retails at £33k, which is £10k more than I paid for a brand new Audi A3.
That's just too much of a difference in initial investment.
The way I see things is that the more drivers who have a need to use the infrastructure, then the more chance of investment in the infrastructure. The only that is going to happen is when the choice between ICE and ECV is similar on price point. Take the average person and give them the choice of £23k for an Audi or £27k for a Nissan, most would say the Audi I'd imagine.
Whilst EVs are still a pricy like for like, don't forget to take the £4.5k government rebate off the RRP.
Whilst EVs are still a pricy like for like, don’t forget to take the £4.5k government rebate off the RRP.
Yep and then you have the actual running cost, it's higher but should drop off much faster. Just signed up for a car share scheme here in Manchester there is no mileage rate for the electric vehicles just the hourly rental.
Mileage per day?
10min walk Tuesday- Wednesday..
Monday & Thursday 220 round trip.
Weekend, varies a lot.
Hence why I chose a Hybrid.
Doesnt prove anything, I’m not the target audience for an EV.
You can always cast your view forwards and say “if/whatabout and when”
Reality is, being pragmatic, today... not tomorrow, not the day after that and not looking backwards either.
Thats the point, it’s today you should be focusing on that and not trying to point out “but you do xxx, so you should buy an EV” Whilst not owning one yourself...
As I mentioned I have a 260 mile commute (270 when I go to the gym). Only 130 miles to work,
Could your employer not fit chargers as part of green incentive?
Thats the point, it’s today you should be focusing on
Thats not really how things change.
The Zoe is quite a bit cheaper than the Leaf; ours is £250/mo which is worth it for the remote preconditioning and de-icing in winter alone... 🙂
We used to do 50 miles a day so ours saved us a packet on fuel - overnight electricity was a tenth of the cost of petrol per mile. We've since moved closer to work so while we can charge it at home, most of the time we could get by with a weekly 45 minutes on a charger in town, where we go pretty much every week anyway.
I hope to never have to run an ICE car again. The Zoe has its downsides right now - slow charging being the main one - but batteries are only going to get larger, chargers are only going to get faster and more numerous, EVs are only going to get cheaper and the electricity grid is only going to get greener, so while they may not suit everybody right now it's only a matter of time before it becomes a no-brainer IMHO.
From what I read Tesla are certainly about to lose their first mover advantage to the mainstream manufacturers. For instance I read a review yesterday comparing the Jag iPace to the ModelS. Same sort of price, performance, range. The Jag came out on top since it was perceived to be better built, you get access to dealers etc..
Mainstream manufacturers are also surpassing Tesla in some ways
lower cost high range cars - new Nissan Leaf
800V charging - VAG group. Porsche Taycan available with 800V charging available next year
Lots of dealers
Ability to keep up with demand
Better know brands
Investing more in EV's and charging infrastructure than Tesla
Hence I see Tesla still being successful but in a smaller manufacturer way.
This isn't a comment on how popular EV will become and their pros/cons (which seem dominate this thread) but a comment on Tesla
Thats the point, it’s today you should be focusing on that and not trying to point out “but you do xxx, so you should buy an EV” Whilst not owning one yourself…
Well having not owned a car for nearly 3 years I reckon I'm not in the market to buy ICE or EV, I'd happily try and use EV as a hire car right now as it would happily cover my needs most of the time.
Part of what this thread shows is how many myths there are, from the majority doing massive miles every day etc. along with the assumption that everyone does what you do. I reckon if a lot of people had a decent think about it and could swap they would find an EV does everything they need.
Tesla was niche, then tried to make it to the big time. I think they're never going to take on the big guys but what they have done is put a massive spotlight on EV's and start some real social change and that is highly commendable. Say what you like about Tesla and Musk but without them do you think EV's would be where they are today?
Now Europe has put deadlines in place for the end of petrol & diesel there is the impetus from the mainstream manufacturers to pull their finger out and up their EV game. EV's are increasing their market share and I believe in the next few years they'll start to hit the point where volumes generate economies of scale and they drop to a more competitive price. The flip side of that says they are at a competitive price already and when the oil-burners drop out of the market we will all have to get used to the fact that stuff isn't as cheap as it used to be.
Personally I think Tesla will stay the size they are and make money from the other technologies they have around infrastructure and batteries.
ps - I'm hoping that in a few years and 100k miles time there will be a fully electric version of our family car that'll do 300 miles on a charge.
@mikewsmith, I know right! I don't know what I'm worried about really 🙂 I know my work based driving is the exception rather than the rule, and this week is madder mileage than most weeks (although not by much if I'm honest). I reckon this (or maybe next) will hopefully be my last internal combustion engined car. I looked at them 2 years ago when I changed last, but they were honestly just too expensive, I struggled to find a lease agreement for my mileage that was a sensible monthly cost, and i was (if I'm honest) worried about mileage capability.
@tjagain, I'm a regional manager, I've community contracts and GP practices all over the North, I do a lot via conference calling, but face to face is still how the vast majority of my staff and colleagues want to see me, and I get pulled into all sorts of meetings by Trusts and CCG that could be done more productively (IMPO) other ways. Some are much better than others, the Welsh for instance have great video-conferencing facilities. It's changing, but not as fast as it could I think.
Ta nickc - hardly a typical community healthcare worker then
Ability to keep up with demand
Can they, though? The demand for the Hyundai ioniq has been massive but they're built in tiny numbers; the newer Kona is getting very good reviews but they plan to build only (IIRC) 18,000 a year worldwide which is nothing. The iPace is the same, they're building them in absolutely tiny numbers compared to Tesla and their Model 3 now, let alone if Tesla do what they say they will and end up at 10,000 a week.
Theoretically the established companies can build cars quickly but the bottleneck is batteries right now; Tesla make their own in much larger quantities than anyone else so have a very large head start.
The most difficult thing about owning an EV right now is buying the damn thing because the waiting times are enormous. The demand is there, but Tesla are currently the only ones doing anything about it.
Ta nickc – hardly a typical community healthcare worker then
No, not typical, but not unique either.
The demand is there, but Tesla are currently the only ones doing anything about it.
I’m really not sure what you mean by that. All the big names are producing, increasing the the amount the produce or planning to.
@phiiiiil I’m sure that the established players in the market are having problems with getting enough batteries although I possibly have more faith that outsourcing batteries will for some of them be more succuessful than Tesla. Jag are getting their batteries from Toshiba I beleive and seem to think that they will be able to supply to meet demand.