[Closed] Teachers overpaid?

16 odd weeks holiday

Really? just 25% out, but hey some of your best friends are teacher etc...As to money, I had my own shopfitting firm,it was only last year when I was promoted,that I started earning more than I made 10 years ago plastering Boots stores.

Convert how do that contact hours compare?

Overall though - taking into account the leave periods, the pension and the salary as a total package it's a fair deal.

Do we factor in expensive holidays for life? That's effectively a pay reduction.

Also, I couldn't do my job without a room at home to work in. That ups my house price.

Don't know about the holidays - do we also factor in the teacher training days?

http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news/74990/teachers-on-staff-training-dash-to-wedding-party

Don't know about the holidays - do we also factor in the teacher training days?

"Staff were given that hour and a half of staff development time to research things for our golden jubilee celebrations."

"They could do that research on or off site, and whenever they liked. Some decided to do it straight away, and others decided to do it after the wedding. It was all agreed with the school governors and is all above board."

Yes, it simply coincided with the wedding, pure coincidence 🙄

and from personal and anecdotal evidence from teacher mates/family there appear to be some shite teachers around

The problem is parents only care about their child [ obvious why] and want the best for them. The more pushy a parent is the more they notice it is a [largely] one size fits all delivery model and their little precious wont be the focus of all the teachers attention. Some relaise this and are ok and some think this means the teacher is bad. There are of course some teachers who are just shit but I would not take a parents word for it as they oftenknow little about educationand are some way from objective.
It is fiar toi say bad teachers are not managed our the profession though but I would assume this is an issue in may workplaces not just teaching.

I only consider professions to be divinity, medicine and law, anything else is simply labelling themselves a profession to gain greater credibility

The primary focus from you and your unions seems to be pay and conditions NOT standards.

Yes, it simply coincided with the wedding, pure coincidence

No one is suggesting it wasn't planned.

I have tomorrow and Friday off for "training days", but the training was done over five evenings after work, so I'm riding my bike instead.

I also get one extra day off per year for report writing, but don't write reports on that day. In fact, there isn't one specific day which is that day off.

Similarly, I use some of my weekends and holidays for work though I'm not required to.

Hora you are an idiot.

Expensive holidays for life is a pay reduction????

Perhaps the holiday periods are expensive because that's when the vast majority of workers can only go on holiday? ie have kids or works shut downs?

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/liverpool-wirral-supply-teaching-agency-944728902?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/guaranteed-supply-teaching-944748858?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/year-4-primary-teaching-job-944745097?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/birmingham-primary-teaching-job-year-6-944724457?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/newly-qualified-primary-teachers-required-944767374?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/early-years-teacher-nursery-944736502?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/year-7-teacher-primary-experience-required-944749137?src=search

Hora you are an idiot.

You don't have to be a qualified teacher to know that! 😀

Just joshing Mark 😉

Expensive holidays for life is a pay reduction????

Perhaps the holiday periods are expensive because that's when the vast majority of workers can only go on holiday? ie have kids or works shut downs?

😉

Poor teachers are overpaid
Good teachers are paid correct salary
Fantastic teachers are underpaid

/thread

Can we not just go with the "how does it compare to the private sector" method? When do I get my 10% rise?

Can we not just go with the "how does it compare to the private sector" method? When do I get my 10% rise?

When you move to the private sector 🙂

I think we should negotiate on a per student basis. They get 10% more for half the kids...

Convert how do that contact hours compare?

😆 I think our contracts are probably a bit iffy. There are no contract hours/ annual hours in there. There is a specific percentage of a full teaching load you are expected to do (with the number of lessons that is expected of a FT teacher in the handbook); a list of other duties that are expected; and then the rest is covered by a lovely catch all "whatever extras as deemed necessary by the headteacher" It's fair to say the headteacher expects his pound of flesh! When we added another week to the academic year a couple of years ago there was a right old load of consultation (quite rightly) necessary for support staff for the change in their T&Cs. Teacher representatives asked if we would also be consulted and were politely pointed to their contracts and told to go swivel.

Can we not just go with the "how does it compare to the private sector" method? When do I get my 10% rise?

You can have my rise for this year aa - 0.8% [if we hit our targets]

That's how our contracts work too.

There's a notional number of hours per year which are directed time, but there's no real agreement as to what constitutes directed time.

We work on a 23.5 hour per week teaching timetable and we're expected to be in the building on 195 days of the year.

I was meaning how many lessons a week I teach 26 fifty min a week.

Number of lessons is not bad really:-

36 X 35min subject lessons a week (less if you have a responsibility)

There is also a compulsory:-

3hr per week of contact time with tutees
2hrs of sports teaching per week (I actually quite like this bit)
running 2 early evening activities (5.30pm-6.30pm)
running 2 late activities (7.30pm-9pm)
2 X being on a boarding house (9pm-11pm)
2hrs of staff meetings per week
2 assemblies per week (about 7-8pm depending on day)

There is the occasional stuff too - week day duties, weekend duties, departmental all-in weekends, whole school all-in weekends.

You also have to compulsorily go on one school trip in the school holidays - normally about a week. Could see that as a nause or a cheap holiday depending on your outlook. The other difference is training days/prep days/entrance exam days at the beginnings of the terms happen in the holidays which chips away about another week and a half.

As I said before the it's swings and roundabouts - the day to day pace is slower but the day is longer. A bit like running a marathon rather than sprinting the 100m.

RichPenny - Member
Hora you are an idiot.

You obviously fell down the education tree.

Can you name a profession that does not have some sh*te people doing it?

Nope, but I also can't think of many jobs that you can so easily get away with being incompetent. The number of teachers sacked for being no good every year is tiny. (Thats not to say I think the vast majority are incompetent btw!)

Poor teachers are overpaid
Good teachers are paid correct salary
Fantastic teachers are underpaid

^^^
I agree with this absolutely

The thing I just don't understand is why teachers in general appear to think they get a rough deal. I'd say the pay and benefits are just as attractive as private sector roles requiring similar hours/pressures/intelectual and educational entry requirements.

The thing I just don't understand is why teachers in general appear to think they get a rough deal. I'd say the pay and benefits are just as attractive as private sector roles requiring similar hours/pressures/intelectual and educational entry requirements.

Despite us getting around 10% less than private school teachers? Who get the same pension, may do more hours a week but get longer holidays!

Despite us getting around 10% less than private school teachers? Who get the same pension, may do more hours a week but get longer holidays!

Is the role identical? If so then surely if you wanted 10% extra pay youd be working in a private school. If not identical, do private school teachers have to do something else to earn 10% more?

Despite us getting around 10% less than private school teachers? Who get the same pension, may do more hours a week but get longer holidays!

As I said before, having done 10yrs in the maintained sector and now about the same in the private, that margin feels about right more or less. 17 or 18 years ago teachers might have had a case for being underpaid but since then we have seen some pretty reasonable rises (around the turn of the millennium under Blair) whilst keeping hold of [u]most[/u] of our pension rights whilst other sectors had been royally shafted in their pensions. On the whole I'd say our package is not bad.

For maths geeks out there my wife and I sat down and calculated our annual hours at work. She is a in a normal office base job with 4 weeks leave plus bank holidays. I do around 200 hours more at work annually than she does taking into account my massive holidays. I was allowed to do more biking and less chores in my holidays after that! 🙂

Public schools i'd have though are more a 24/7 job - but they possibly get cheap on-site accomodation etc to offset this?

I also can't think of many jobs that you can so easily get away with being incompetent. The number of teachers sacked for being no good every year is tiny. (Thats not to say I think the vast majority are incompetent btw!)

I agree but it may also be because even the poor ones still meet the minimum standard but it is a profession, unlike most others, whereby teachers need to go above and beyond their contractual requirements. Not everyone will but they are still not technically in breach of their Terms and conditions

I do agree that there needs to be a way of doing it but, and I am sure the teachers on here will agree, that no one really wants to give that power to management. They will often use it to manage people out of the school who dont share thier "vision" rather than ones who are not actually good. They would , potentially anyway, abuse it to get rid of "troublesome " teachers and we would be left with yes people rather than good teachers. I am not sur eif this would be better tbh

For example many heads only look at the league tables and results [ because it is all that parents look at] and are not interested in holistic or support within the school or the pastoral system so they dislike teachers who advocate it and try and ensure the school still does this,
I suspect their bosses think they are not good teachers and not focusing on the corect things but they may not actually be a bad teacher.

Given all teachers work with different resources [ pupils] it is not always easy to find an objective measure of effectiveness

It is a [small] issue but one that does not have an easy soloution.

If not identical, do private school teachers have to do something else to earn 10% more?

Sell our souls to he devil? 🙂 I think that was pretty much the opinion of my old headteacher and half my colleagues when I told them I was off to the dark side! I think the line was "If you do this, you'll never be welcome back!".

The number of teachers sacked for being no good every year is tiny.

I think the reason for this is that most leave of their own accord. Being a poor teacher is a proper horrible place to be. The pressure from pupils, parents and smt is massive and most jump before being pushed. Or become super stressed and ill and leave that way. There is not much sadder than watching a nice person who just happens to not make a very good teacher spiralling to the exit door and it happens all the time.

Convert, I am intrigued by your working day what activities do the kids do after 7 pm other than prep or is that what you are supervising?

If not identical, do private school teachers have to do something else to earn 10% more?

Produce Tories who marry and pretend they are straight?

Lots of different stuff - it's a boarding school so all the things a busy active student might get outside of school otherwise.

So it might be:-

Prep/homework - there are supervised study slots that need to me manned
Sport - all different stuff (I mainly lifeguard or coach swimming, supervise a gym, or in the summer run a mountain biking activity)
Drama & music - rehearsals for plays, choirs, concert bands, or rock stuff.
Workshops - keeping the art and Design areas open for extra work
Civics Talks - lots of really interesting folk we manage to get in to talk to them (open to the local public too).
Duke of Edinburgh award training.
More chilled stuff like cooking, chess clubs, debating clubs.
Occasionally its supervising a dance/rock show type thing.

Mostly I'm either doing sport or keeping my workshop open with a smattering a cultural stuff and D of E. It could be worse. The kids have a full on day - woken at 7am and then pretty much flat out until 9pm everyday. They are knackered by the end of the term.

For maths geeks out there my wife and I sat down and calculated our annual hours at work. She is a in a normal office base job with 4 weeks leave plus bank holidays. I do around 200 hours more at work annually than she does taking into account my massive holidays.

Google Latitude says that I spend about 45 hours a week at work. But, some of that time isn't working and some of the time I'm not at work is spent working.

Hey - shssss, whatever the ins and outs are - post conversation I got to ride my bike and chill in the holidays without being nagged at - it's all good, don't rock the boat!

it's a boarding school

I know that is why I asked the question as in my day all we did after 7 was prep in the week.

I think the change came when a lot of boarding schools stopped being 7 day a week and actually allowed the kids home on Saturday afternoon until Sunday evening. Now all the stuff that used to go on then now gets shoehorned into the remaining 5 1/2 days.

Mefty - I think that you would be surprised at the range of activities that take place after 7 - work, music, cultural, R&R etc, all of which require supervision.

Convert - interesting observation about fitting 7 into 5 1/2 - house sport/music comps etc on a Sunday suddenly become a lot less popular!

To be honest I don't remember doing much on weekends other than doing sport on Saturday afternoons, which presumably still goes on, and Chapel on a Sunday.

EDIT: Of course in my day, the senior boys ran the houses and did most of the supervision so the big change for me is how much more involved teachers are.

Is the role identical? If so then surely if you wanted 10% extra pay youd be working in a private school. If not identical, do private school teachers have to do something else to earn 10% more?

you've clearly never met me or taken much notice of what i post here but I would fear for the pupils if I had to teach Tarquin and Poppy! I have my standards. Convert obviously thinks his job is harder a maybe it is I dont know nor will i ever. But its a fact that many a good teacher leaves the state sector for more pay and less abuse

you've clearly never met me or taken much notice of what i post here but I would fear for the pupils if I had to teach Tarquin and Poppy! I have my standards. Convert obviously thinks his job is harder a maybe it is I dont know nor will i ever. But its a fact that many a good teacher leaves the state sector for more pay and less abuse

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Many a shite teacher, too. Moreso, because if they're struggling with classroom management, can't connect with these challenging kids, then the way out seems obvious.

Might well be the case, many go straight into private from pgce too.

Many a shite teacher, too. Moreso, because if they're struggling with classroom management, can't connect with these challenging kids, then the out seems obvious.

You are quite right in saying that there are some teachers in the private sector that might struggle with the crowd control aspect that is so important in some schools and would get eaten alive in front of the wrong kids. That does not make them poor teachers though - just wrong for that environment. I've met some incredible teachers who communicate with such knowledge and wit and are able to tease the absolute best out of a potential oxbridge students that would be rubbish at maintaining control and delivering a worthwhile lesson in some of the schools I've worked in. Neither skill is better but I rarely see them both in the same person. A lot of the people in the staff room here have more in common with university lecturers than maintained sector teachers - it works here but I doubt it would work everywhere. Having said all that I'm really glad I did my time in some tricky state schools first - I might not need some of those skills on a day to day basis but it's handy to know they are there.