[Closed] Surnames...when did they stop making up new ones?

Robert Smith.

my surname means rock or crag. gaelic.

And what was Bob called before he was Bob Smith?

Bob with the knackered horse.

I thought all surnames were created when they made the doomsday book, 1086, and that before that everyone was just known by one name...

That's easy, he was known as the lead singer of the Smiths.

They do still make up surnames: two of my mates got married a few years back, and instead of hyphenating or changing only one of their names, just sort of smushed them together into a new name, fairer that way. Less recently, another mate's family got their surname when granddad fled from the Nazis - he made something non-Jewish-sounding up at the border, got to the UK, and then decided to keep the new name.

Bob was just called Bob, because there weren't any other Bobs. Or if there were, they could be differentiated by calling one of them Big Bob and the other one Little Bob. It was only when people started collecting taxes and writing down names for that purpose that you needed to be more specific.

You can create a new one any time you like. My girlfriend's surname is only a few generations old. A great grandfather changed the family name to disassociate his family line from his more murdery and getting-deported-to-the-colonies rowdy relatives - so now theres only around 500 people in the world she shares that name - anyone she might meet that shares here surname will be a close cousin.

More famously I suppose - John Cleese's father changed the family name from 'Cheese' to 'Cleese'.

I don't know the answer but I love the question - they are just one of those things we take for granted (I think it was a lot later than Doomsday though, more like 16th or 17th century for most but not all?).

I believe in Thailand surnames are a very recent thing.

Bob was just called Bob, because there weren't any other Bobs. Or if there were, they could be differentiated by calling one of them Big Bob and the other one Little Bob. It was only when people started collecting taxes and writing down names for that purpose that you needed to be more specific.

Big Bob the farmer or Big Bog the Miller?

It still sort of exists in places. My ex lived in a village in South Wales and everyone was known by an identifier rather than a real name. Guy at the pub was a taxi driver called Mike. Everyone knew him as Mike Taxi, his friends didn't know his real name. My then-girlfriend's dad carried a huge bunch of keys everywhere, he was Barry Keys. Asking if Barry [real name] had been in, no-one knew who I was talking about.

Very True Cougar the Mod.

made up their entire name

Although there are names that are trade related and so on - I like that a lot of surnames are derived from nicknames

Surnames like King, Bishop, Prince , Abbot etc are all nicknames for people who were arrogant. Fox and Todd for people who were cunning etc

Similarly you get other physically descriptive ones - Strong, Armstrong, Cruikshank (bandy legs) or just haircolour - Black (or Blake) Brown, Snow, Reid/Reed (redhead) Blunt (Blonde) Pollard (bald)

My ex lived in a village in South Wales and everyone was known by an identifier rather than a real name

I can't remember the film... set in Wales.. various shops with signs saying 'Jones the Butcher' 'Jones the Baker' etc and in the graveyard a gravestone inscribed 'Jones the Dead'

Certainly in Scandinavian countries like Iceland surnames or family names change all the time, because the name is either son or daughter of whoever their father is, ie Siggmundsson or Siggmundsdottir - son or daughter of Siggmund.
The same is true in Arabic, bint Laden or bin Laden - daughter or son of Laden.
I think family names in England started to become more fixed in place when birth and death records became more formalised and recorded into a national database, before then names could change at any time because they tended to be spelt however the registrar interpreted it, due to local accents, etc.

mintimperial - Member
They do still make up surnames: two of my mates got married a few years back, and instead of hyphenating or changing only one of their names, just sort of smushed them together into a new name, fairer that way.

I was just going to say exactly the same thing...

They didn't happen to get married and have a party in a Lake District YHA by some chance did they?

I'm of Welsh stock and my name is Powell. In wales the word Ap meant 'son of' so Ap Howell became Powell, Ap Harry became Parry, Ap Robin became Probyn etc

@Cougar still goes on - my FIL is known at "Dave Taxi" - we live in Cardiff, a city of over a million souls. There must be more than one "Dave Taxi" apparently not - there must be a long line of David's who drive Taxis waiting for the call "it's your time" "no way" "would I lie to you? Dave's retired - the titles yours" "ohhhh mate, I've been waiting for this day to come for 20 years".

Hope he doesn't have to die to give up the Name.

That's easy, he was known as the lead singer of the Smiths.

That's not Bob Smith, that's Bob Morrisey, strange vegan bloke from the next village over. Not a very good minstrel, if he actually turns up to the pub to entertain, you can guarantee a chicken will run through the bar and he'll storm off 🙂

Some countries have clear rules (Japan and Iceland for two). The uk doesn't. People can pretty much call themselves what they want.

My ex lived in a village in South Wales and everyone was known by an identifier rather than a real name.

Like sheep then ? 😉

I'm from rural mid Wales, and farmers are generally known by the farm name - partly I'm sure because of the tendency to reuse family names (my cousin, uncle, grandfather and myself share a first and last name) and that there are so many hugh's Powell's etc. (All derived from the patronymic naming mentioned by Flossie)

I'm John The Bike in a disturbingly large number of places. People even apologise to me for saying that's how they identify me. I have occasional thoughts about formally changing my name.

There was a chap named Woodcock who was good at his job, built a business and was doing well in his small town. He felt he could do beter in a big city, but wondered if his name might be a disadvantage. But he felt he didn't want to lose it completely, thereby abandonning his previous life.

So he moved to London and changed his name to Okehampton.

I was about to post that I didn't understand that. But then I did. 😀

Should go back to just a description of the person's characteristic.

Grunthos the Flatulent.

There's a footballer called Trent Alexander Arnold. His first name's a surname and he's got two first names as a surname.

I was at university with a bloke surname 'Hardon'

Is that occupation, nickname or just bad luck?

You'll not believe me but his Christian name was Richard. Parents eh?

Mongolians surnames are their fathers first name.

Khongorzul Turbold - Khongorzul T.

Their farther would have been Turbold ?? and his father ?? ??

And Hungarians.

That's easy, he was known as the lead singer of the Smiths.

There's probably a Cure for your lack of knowledge.

My surname means 'servant of St. John', or son of

In MrsG's home Welsh villiage they have the same Mile the Taxi etc...

My favourite is Dai Man U. Since he organises trips to Man U and is a super fan. I'm not sure if anyone really knows his surname.

'Morrison' is son of Morris (Moorish/dark-skimmed). I didn't know that until today.

For some reason this thread got me thinking:

John Inman

His very name was a saucy quip!

Anyway there's a Dave The Bastard in my neck of the woods. I bet his dad wasn't happy about that.

My grandma was Mary. Everyone knew here as Mary and everyone knew her (publican in a small town).

When she died we found out she was actually Maud. Not even her kids knew.

Only her birth certificate was Maud, everything else said Mary but she'd never officially changed her name.

On one side of my Dads family pretty much everyone goes by a different name to their actual name... no idea why

My urname means little henry or something like that.

Its probably the best name for taking the piss going.

It's a great surname JV

I'm John The Bike in a disturbingly large number of places.

Used to know a guy called Tommy Ladders.

For ages I thought it was an unusual surname.

Then I found out he was a window cleaner.

There's probably a Cure for your lack of knowledge.

D'oh! Should have re-read it before posting!

Which lead singer will be most offended by being mistaken for the other?
Do either of them ride mountain bikes?

I went to school with a couple of lads called Ennis: Pete and Phil 🙄

The use of tags for names also goes on in rural Ireland at our place our friend Donal is Donal jacks, there's a Ger shooter and a Ger the yank and the other week we met handsome Mike. Seems to arise from a very limited pool of surnames, probably only a dozen or so in what used to be a well populated valley

my surname means rock or crag. gaelic.

You a Craig Ton?

They're still making up new ones in the Western Isles.

Murdo Wellies
Maggie Horse
Emily Big Tits
Maggie Joan Splatterpants

His first name's a surname and he's got two first names as a surname.

I used to work with a lad called Harsh Dave. First name Harsh, surname Dave.

I went to school with a couple of lads called Ennis: Pete and Phil

Similarly, there used to be a lad across the road from me, M. Barrass.

giantalkali - Member
It's a great surname JV

The finest

People still double-barrel their names. By still, I mean it seems a fairly recent thing.
Perhaps as it becoes less aspirational, the two will get bundled back together.

My wife's McGowan. I'm Eustace. I really wanted us to both be Mc Eustace.

Mc Eustace.

..... in da house.

I really wish I'd taken on my wife's surname when we married. It means Elf Friend and sounds like something from Middle Earth. Mine is an utterly boring place name.

Used to work with a guy called Diesel. In nine years I never knew his given or surname.

A colleague of mine is on maternity leave just now, she's Mrs Carpenter so you assume that some great-great-great-great was a carpenter that started a family of carpenters... But she's not a carpenter, and her dad was a scientist, and so is she, so she wants to call the baby Mary Biochemist.

giantalkali - Member
It's a great surname JV

The finest

Is your name Tesco then?

This has been an education to me.
My mum's husband has a bowed leg, but until today I just thought it was unfortunate. Now I realise it's damn right freaky because their surname is Cruikshank!

My surname means Easter ( probably - a fair bit of debate about it)

In Scotland you often get folk with surnames for firstnames and vice versa. I know of a Campbell Dick for example

My wife was at school with Everhard and Afelia (not sure of spelling). West Indian origin and brother and sister.

Their surname was Dick...

Smith isn't derived from blacksmith. It's an old word for soldier (Smite your enemy etc).

If it was blacksmith it would be as common as Miller, Baker or their derivatives, but it's far more common.

Really interesting thread.

The answer to the OP's question is, about 1450. Which is why medieval occupations, such as Joyner, Turner, Cooper, Archer, Fletcher, Baker, Smith, Miller, Fisher, Hunter, Ryder and Weaver are used as surnames, and not later occupations.

Pre-1066, people would have been given a "by-name" (literally a "village name") to distinguish them from other villagers. This could have described their occupation (Smith, Cooper, Turner), association with family (Johnson, Davies, Simmons etc), physical characteristics (Strong, Little, Fairhead etc) or association with a place (Sturridge, Heath, Shaw, etc).

The Domesday book did not begin the practice of fixed or hereditary surnaming for commoners, however hereditary surnaming did arrive with the Normans.

Hereditary naming was a feudal custom for the nobility and bourgeoisie, designed to ensure wealth was kept in the family. To have an inherited surname therefore became a status symbol, so the custom filtered down the social orders until almost every child, rich or poor, was given their father's surname. By the 15th Century, the custom was almost universal, and surnames were therefore relatively fixed by this time.

However, to state the obvious, immigration since then has brought new surnames into our language.

There has never been any legal requirement for a child to be named after either parent.

I'm son of Fergus. Only, having gained this name from my father and he from his, I'm confident there is no Scottish blood on my paternal side.

How so? My grandfather was an immigrant who changed his Italian-sounding first name and surname when he initially settled in Scotland.

Yep my Jewish grandfather did the same. It would have been tough doing your national service with an obviously-Jewish name (or, probably, an obviously-Italian name)

Smith isn't derived from blacksmith. It's an old word for soldier (Smite your enemy etc).

Smith does, indeed, come from the Anglo Saxon "Smitan", meaning to hit. Smiths were such named because they were beaters of metal. The surname comes from the occupation. However, the commonness of the name meant it was a popular surname given to non-blacksmiths too, hence its popularity today.

I can find no reference to a derivative of "smitan" as a synonym for soldier, but I'm intrigued. Do you have more details?

I'm an Armer, presumed to be derived from 'armourer', but also of great amusement to my German ex-girlfriend, to whom it simply meant 'poor'.

My surname gets me free beer in Germany, and a fuss made of me when I meet Germans abroad. 8)

Hasselhoff?

Alas, no. Less common. More posh.

Von Richthofen?

I fear we could dominate this thread and go on for pages at this rate. 🙂

" SaxonRider - Member

My surname gets me free beer in Germany, and a fuss made of me when I meet Germans abroad. "

Hitler?

there must be some knocking about.... i know a few Adolfs, albeit of an older generation...

Once I had written what I did, I wondered how long it would take for that suggestion to come up.

Sorry, alpin, but no. And much to my disappointment, my given name is seriously anglicised. I don't like the dissonance.

Bumgardener?

Elfenstone?

Windsor?

Hasselhoff?

Hoffmeister?

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At Christmas we had a ham as well as turkey. At some point the ham got knocked off the worktop but I was able to catch it by trapping it against the cupboard with my leg (I've just about got the stains out of my trousers). My brother in law suggested that in days gone by I'd be given a name for this - I quite liked the idea of being Mr Hamcatcher and my eldest was happy with being Sam Hamcatcherson 🙂

"But you **** one goat and..."

As for hereditary Welsh names, I believe there's an ap for that.

As for hereditary Welsh names, I believe there's an ap for that.

I have a friend whose family surname was Onions but they changed it to Runswick (after Runswick Bay)

I think the new president should nip down to the deed poll office for an alternative (facts) surname.

Donald Fwib perhaps

I think the new president should nip down to the deed poll office for an alternative (facts) surname.

Jon Stewart has a suggestion for him 🙂