[Closed] summer rugby

I reckon it'll be:
Vunipola
Youngs
Adam
Parling
AW Jones
Croft
Warbs
Heaslip
Phillips
Sexton
North
Davies
Bod
Bowe
1/2p

Grant
Hibbard
Cole
Evans
SOB
Youngs
Farrell
Maitland

anagallis_arvensis - Member

I reckon it'll be:

I think your probably right but no Cuthbert?

Its harsh because he took his try well but Bowe is the bettr player

Fans of cole and vunipola look away now. Wallaby scrum could dominate on saturday!!!

A closer look at some of Pillocks decisions. Got the BOD first one right to be fair some others are odd to say the least.

With Kepu likely to start at tighthead for Oz i think they have to start Grant, Lions can't afford to be conceding pens or getting ball on the back foot off the scrums. I think Vunipola is good but he is thought of as a weak scrummager so anything goes down on his side he is likely to be pinged.

Huw Bennett forced to retire with an achillies problem, feels like there has been a lot of forced retirements this season

Adam Jones is a world class scrummager, part of that skill set is conning the ref from time to time as per the YouTube clip. The Lions scrum was poor after the substitutions and should have lost us the game in the last 10 mins. The scrum was definitely affected by Pollocks bizarre calling of the hit right from the start. We need to be much better on Saturday and Australia's confidence will be high in this area.

I think Tuilagi will be on the bench and he may possibly even start, I don't think BOD's place in the side is a certainty.

As an aside McCaw was part of the commentary team for the NZ/France series

ijs445ra - Member

i think they have to start Grant

Problem with that is that Grant is Scottish; Gatland will see him and IMMEDIATELY be reminded that another Scot in the party has refused to marry his daughter and indeed is demanding a DNA test.

The Lions scrum was poor after [s]the substitutions and should have lost us the game in the last 10 mins.[/s] their best player fractured his arm, but played on and packed down anyway to do what he could to keep us in the game

Can't all be blamed on the subs.
But tbh, Heaslip should have been packing down at second row if they knew there was a problem.

I don't think BOD's place in the side is a certainty.

He's not welsh, so that's true.
We'd be two tries less on the scoreboard without him. There's been enough talk about the block for Cuthbert already. The ref allowed it 🙂
But have a re-watch of North's try too and watch the perfect line he run's in front of Folau when the kick's in the air. Keeps moving so as not to stop and visibly block him, but times it so subtly that most people, ref included, would miss it.
north might have won it in the air and ran it in anyway, but the other contests suggest not.

The Lions scrum was poor after their best player fractured his arm, but played on and packed down anyway to do what he could to keep us in the game

But have a re-watch of North's try too and watch the perfect line he run's in front of Folau when the kick's in the air. Keeps moving so as not to stop and visibly block him, but times it so subtly that most people, ref included, would miss it.
north might have won it in the air and ran it in anyway, but the other contests suggest not.

number three the kick was waaaaaay tooooo loooong Folau would have got nowhere near it any way.

re Tuilagi
I'd love it if he was involved. He's the best twelve available with Robert's injured.
JD had a couple of good games, but he's not a twelve , he's the third best thirteen in the party.
But can't see G****** going for it after giving Manu 80 minutes yesterday.

Scrums will be a big focus on Saturday given the variance in performance in the 1st test, we started ok but then tapered off - Aussies may perceive an advantage but we still have some good operators and a key theme is going to be adapting to the ref in the game. We didn’t do so well with the way he policed the engage, we need to learn from that and use the experience to get over it.

If we can adapt and tighten up the discipline then no problem or at least an even chance in the lottery of penalties called when they collapse.

nicked from elsewhere but I thought it worth a read.

From a Sports writer called Murray Kinsella
http://elverysblog.com/2013/06/25/lions-breaking-down-the-back-row/

Lions: Breaking Down the Back Row
The Lions are lucky to be 1-0 up in the Test series, and Warren Gatland certainly needs to re-think his use of the bench, kicking tactics, lineout strategy and player selection. One area in particular that needs a change is the back row.

The balance in the first Test just wasn’t right. Many critics have highlighted Tom Croft as anonymous, while others are suggesting Sam Warburton’s lack of carries as reason to drop him. The stats that are freely available can be misleading, so I’ve taken a detailed look at each the back row’s performances.

Jamie Heaslip

The Leinster man turned in an excellent performance, with a huge work-rate. In attack, Heaslip made 10 carries for around 30 metres. In the tight, his leg drive was impressive as he eked out every possible inch. On the two occasions he got possession in midfield, he made big gains, busting a tackle the first time and making an offload the second.

When he wasn’t carrying, Heaslip didn’t hang about waiting for the ball. He was involved in 16 attacking rucks. Seven of those were accurate cleanouts; one was ineffective; he leeched onto attackers twice to aggressively drive them through contact; conceded one penalty; and was ‘guard’ at five rucks (meaning he didn’t clear anyone away but protected the ball).

Heaslip made six passes over the course of the 80 minutes. It was interesting to see him used as first receiver, from where he either popped the ball to forward runners outside him or made a longer pass back to Sexton. These passing skills are one of the areas where Heaslip is slightly ahead of Toby Faletau.

At the lineout, the No. 8 was an important part of the jigsaw. He claimed four throws, all at the front. Again, his lineout ability nudges him ahead of Faletau.

Heaslip was superb defensively. With nine (two assisted), his tackle count wasn’t the highest but his impact was immense. Three of those tackles were dominant, where he either sent the attacker backwards or into touch. He also managed to strip the ball from James O’Connor inside the Lions 22.

All in all, this was a complete display from Heaslip and he deserves to keep his place.

Sam Warburton

It’s becoming popular to question Warburton’s contributions and I can understand that. I’m a big fan of Justin Tipuric and would love to see him start at 7, but I feel that some of the criticism leveled at Warburton is over the top. On Saturday, he did his job and should keep his place for the second Test.

In attack, Warburton contributed three carries for a total of eight metres. All three of them were in midfield. We will come back to that. In the Lions’ attacking phase play, the captain was involved in 22 rucks. 12 of those were effective cleanouts; one was ineffective; one saw the Lions awarded a penalty; one saw them concede a penalty; and in seven of them Warburton acted as the ‘guard’.

Helping the Lions win the breakdown is Warburton’s main function, and he did well in attack. Defensively, referee Chris Pollock ruled out any chance of turnovers meaning Warburton only had five half-hearted efforts at stealing Wallabies’ possession. The second Test will be a truer illustration of Warburton’s ability at the breakdown.

The Lions captain kept himself busy in defence, with 17 tackle involvements. Seven of those saw him assisted in the tackle, with the majority of the rest being low one-on-one tackles. Warburton did miss two tackles, but neither resulted in Wallaby points.

At the lineout, Warburton didn’t catch any ball, but he contributed two lifts. Elsewhere, he made a partial block down of a Genia kick early in the second half.

Warburton’s role for the Lions is to make tackles and be the first to the breakdown. He did that job well and has done enough to keep his place in the starting team. If the Wallabies add George Smith to the mix, things get a lot more interesting.

Tom Croft

Croft’s main strengths are his lineout excellence and his pacy running game out wide. Starting with the latter, the Englishman delivered, with four clean takes on the Lions’ throw. Three of those were at the front, with one catch at the tail. Job done in the lineout.

Unfortunately for Croft, he only got one chance to show his running game out wide and he took it poorly. With around 20 minutes to go he finally got space but it ended with a forward pass to O’Driscoll and a wasted opportunity. In total, Croft made 6 carries for 30 metres. The rest of them were in midfield or in tight, where Croft isn’t particularly effective.

In defence, Croft made 10 tackles (three of which were assisted). That looks good on paper, but his tackles lacked impact. The Englishman missed at least two chances to smash Wallaby attackers. On top of that, his decision making for Folau’s second try has to be questioned. He shot up out of the line, but didn’t tackle anyone. The try certainly wasn’t his fault alone, but he should have done better.

Likewise for the first Folau try, when he shot up on James O’Connor and created space either side of himself. In this instance, he needed to at least block O’Connor’s progress. In his place, Dan Lydiate or Sean O’Brien would have put a shoulder on O’Connor. For me, Croft just lacks that aggressive edge.

Supporters of Croft often mention that his breakdown work isn’t appreciated, but that wasn’t backed up by his display on Saturday. In 24 ruck involvements, just seven were effective cleanouts. Six of them were technically poor; four were weak leeches where his lack of aggression showed up; and seven saw him acting as ‘guard’.

Overall, I don’t think that Croft did enough to keep his place in the team.

O’Brien or Lydiate the Answer?

Between Warburton and Croft, there were eight carries close to the rucks and in midfield on Saturday. If O’Brien can come into the team and be the guy in those positions, the Lions are likely to get over the gain line more regularly.

Furthermore, O’Brien’s threat in attack would draw defenders to him and free up space for others. It usually takes two men to bring him down, and that would mean one less defender harassing Mike Phillips or marking George North out wide.

However, Dan Lydiate is a tempting option for Gatland in a potential role as stifler-in-chief of Will Genia. Lydiate could certainly perform that role expertly. The big Welshman also contributes plenty of clean-outs. His excellent discipline is another advantage over O’Brien.

Either way, Gatland needs to change the back row and my preference would be to see O’Brien in the starting team, with Lydiate coming off the bench for the last 20 minutes.

Huw Bennett forced to retire 🙁

Backs - Halfpenny, Bowe, O'Driscoll, Davies, North, Sexton, B Youngs

Forwards - Vunipola, T Youngs, A Jones, AW Jones, Parling, Lydiate, Warburton(c), Heaslip

Replacements - Hibbard, Grant, Cole, Croft, O'Brien, Murray, Farrell, Cuthbert

Happy to see O'Brien on the bench

I would prefer to see SOB start but nench option is good. Not happy to see Croft covering lock. If one of them goes down early we are screwed.

AusXV v Lions: Beale Folau A-Cooper Leali'ifano Tomane O'Connor Genia Robinson Moore Alexander Douglas Horwill Mowen Hooper Palu

Gatland said Phillips was "fit and available", although the Welshman - who started all three Tests in South Africa - has not been able to take a full part in training with a knee injury that also hindered him in the first Test.
"The decision was to rest him this week," Gatland explained. "He is potentially an important component for next week. Given the quality of the nines we have got, all of them have done a great job for us. We felt it was prudent to make sure he was 100% fit for next week."

more Gatland Gibberish?

Phillips dropped - simple as. Hopefully Youngs/Murray can distribute a bit quicker. Lydiate should provide a bit more protection for them too. Front five looks a bit creaky if we're unlucky with injuries.

Does parling pack down behind vunipola or is he other side?

Think croft as 2nd row and Cuthbert as back three bench cover is a bit risky.

Duckman, looks like your right Grant for token of the test.

Think croft as 2nd row and Cuthbert as back three bench cover is a bit risky.

interchangeable though, Croft could cover wing and Cuthbert lock 😆

My guess is Lydiate is in to provide the dog we lose with O'Connell's injury. We lose a little in the lineout though, and pace out wide. Worried about Vunipola starting, he has to get the serums bang on from the start before thinking about the big carries.

The pack seems less balanced this week, carrying a weak(er) scrummager and a lighter lock means we lose athleticism in the back row, but the Aussies have more dangerous broken field runners on the pitch from the first whistle, which could expose a slower back row. let's hope our rock blunts their scissors...

Having Bowe back is a big plus, but I'd never drop Phillips from the 23

Given the forced changes I didn’t think Gatland would do much tinkering but he has gone for it. Can’t argue with Philips and Croft being disappointing in the first test so they are out on their arses. Cuthbert will feel hard done by as he didn’t do anything wrong but Tommy Bowe probably does have the edge on him. Brave and positive move I think.

Cuthbert should not feel hard done by he should feel lucky he is on the Tour he is p1sh. Tommy Bowe has more rugby skill in his broken bone than Cuthbert does in his whole body. I can appreciate Cuthbert is a fine athlete (big, strong, fast in a straight line) but he really does lack rugby skill, Haskell is similar the over muscled under skilled ****t. Unfortunately that is the way the game has gone in the NH gym work before skill work.

Maitland is the one who should feel hard done by, he has had a hand in quite a lot f tries through his support play, running lines etc and that comes from his [s]Scottish[/s] NZ upbringing 🙂

Maitland is the one who should feel hard done by

Maitland has missed one as far as i recall when the Lions were a man down in the backs, and while he scrambled well to make it across, i know he should not have missed the player having made it across.

Maitland is a far better rugby player than Cuthbert, perhaps not as good an athlete, but a better rugby player

Cuthbert may not always have the safest hands but he is not a disaster zone, he likes a tackle and takes a lot of stopping on the Ball, he puts a shift in and has pace and height. Not a lot wrong with that, I agree Bowe has the edge but if you play well and score in a winning performance then you should feel hard done by.

His try looked quite easy but it was all down to isolating a poor defender in their line and executing the perfect line and timing, he did it so well it looked like a knife through butter.

He's missed more than that, and even worse has left gaping holes where he should be standing/running.
He's an exciting talent but I'd go for Cuthbert against the aussie wingers over Maitland every time.

Would rather take a chance on Tuilagi on the bench than either of them. Actually, would much rather have him start at 12, tbh.
JD was hardly a success there, even against a forward. Good 13, not a 12 at this level.

And Richie Gray, or even Ian Evans, is not as good a lock as Tom Croft?

IRB are appealing the Horwill decision :D. That could be interesting!!! The first decision was basically a dog ate my homework excuse that was accepted - rubbish.

Croft was not great in the first test, he might be a great player on his day but so is Philips and they both suffered the same fate.

Tuilagi is a very exciting player but maybe not a great all round player / safe pair of hands and that is why he is not getting a look in.

He's not getting a look in because there is no space on the bench!
5 forwards leaves 3 back spaces to cover wing, centre, FH, SH and FB. Gats have to pick the most versatile players, not necessarily the best ones. I'd have put him on the bench as wing/centre cover instead of Cuthbert *waits for a_a to froth at the mouth*. Nothing wrong with Tuilagis hands.

I wpuld agree wrecker no point having croft on the bench as SOB is there and Tuilagi might be a better option than Cuthbert. Cuthbert aint shit though, scores a shed load of tries for someone who is lucky to be on tour.Maitland a better bench option as cover 15 but not a better winger.

Good point, but you'd need to replace croft with another 2nd row. Evans and Grey have both been playing well and as you said, SOB can cover the back row. Has me wondering if gats plan is to bring SOB on for warbs?
I like Cuthbert as a player, like manu and north, he can be a game winner. Would like to see manu run at those backs though; create some space for BOD.

SOB would have been the perfect 7 for last weeks ref, dont need a ground hog if the breakdown is policed like that, with Lydiate hitting some rucks to secure our ball a 7 that carries would have been great. But has SOB played with Croft last week our own ball would have become more vulnerable.

North 12 BOD 13 Cuthbert 11 Bowe 14 and 1/2p 15, with Croft at 4 and SOB 6 or 7 would certainly pose an attacking threat for the last 20 if we are in the shit.

anyway whatever else happens I just hope Davies gets a good run up at Lealifano early on 😀

Won't make any odds if he does as do you think lealifano has any recollection of playing against him last week? 😈

Time to put it right irb[img] :medium[/img]

I too hope the IRB do the right thing, the original decision to clear Horwell was simply wrong

So George North is sorry and Craig Mitchell is really really sorry 😮

I despise Schalk Burger. The holder of the dubious record of most yellow cards since they were introduced. I hope he never returns to rugby, it's better off without him.
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Back in the amateur game a bit of cheating was all part of the fun but as the professional era dawned and the game got a lot faster / harder the tolerance for such things has been sliding. The direction of travel on these issues is against the big cheating Aussie and I was shocked he got away with it. The appeal makes a lot of sense to me. IRB taking a stand as to how such things should be interpreted. IMO what Horwill did is now completely unacceptable although was part of the game 20 years ago. Canadian QC to rule on the appeal I will be shocked again if he isn’t banned for the 3rd test.

There were, and are some expectations by players of a bit of naughty. I know that if I'm on the wrong side, I'll still probably get a bit of a shoeing. I know that there is a likelihood of being punched especially if I'm doing my job. One thing that (to my mind) has never been and will never be acceptable is high tackles. I am not prepared to accept that it's part of rugby. I generally play with a smile and like to enjoy the game. There is [i]very[/i] little which occurs on the field which will make me properly violent. The exception is a high tackle. If I receive one; I'm punching someone and that's it.

I don't see how they IRB can not ban Horwill. It's on video FFS. He's done it in one of the most high profile rugby games of the year. They have to send the message that it's unacceptable.

Funny how a high tackle was always frowned upon but a bit of a shoeing to the face was for years part of the game.

I’m getting squeaky bum re tomorrow’s game already.

I was on the plane home (from the Caribbean) today, and the bloke sitting next to me was on a connections based trip to Aus to meet with friends and watch the tests tomorrow - a 30hr trip to Gatwick, Heathrow, Hong Kong and then Aus.

Yet becuase tomorrow is designated "post holiday rest day" Mrs K is allowing me to reside on the Sofa for the Lions matched followed by and afternoon of the Grand Depart. *much grinning*

Funny how a high tackle was always frowned upon but a bit of a shoeing to the face was for years part of the game.

Different from when/where I played. Boot face interactions would result in a fight, high tackles would not normally if it was one of those accidental arm out type of things. Tip tackles were positively encouraged!
I once got sent off after smacking a guy who kicked one of our players in the face, he got sent off too. I did not recieve a ban, he did.
I once got sent of for a tip tackle too but that was in a touch rugby tournament 😳