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I do wonder if the suicide rate is as high in 'laid back' countries like Spain , Portugal, Greece , Turkey and to some extent france?
TJ has a valid point though , we are bombarded with adverts for shiney trinkets all day , everyday . When in reality who gives a stuff if your car is 3 or 9 years old.
Maybe its spendaholic women who see burning through the family joint income as some sort of mission, on stuff you could happily live without , I really dont know.
There will be background causes that will never come to light , someone having 'mental health issues ' could be being sexually abused , bullied at work , PTSD , a torrid affair or unrequited love , marriage break down . Without sounding like Geetee some guys may be suffering domstic abuse. Alot of the time there will be no evidence.
I do know that parents should never have to bury their children , that must be soul destroying.
Maybe it just seems like the only way out of the situation they are in , there is no option , no plan b . No point in carrying on , no point in getting out of bed, no point in going to work to be shouted at for doing the best you can in a job you despise.
I sometimes wonder if cycling doesnt help.Like an addictive drug the endorphin high of a great day out on a bike , thn returning to the mundane , when all you want to do is to get out in the sunshine and ride for even longer. You do not get the same buzz watching Pointless.
Life is tough , and I do think we make it tougher on ourselves
When you see populations in very poor countries there doesn't seem to be much depression. In our first world consumer driven country it seems that we expect to have a right to happiness.
As TJ says, it seems the simple things such as going out into the hills, visiting your close friends and only family members that you love and they love you.
This world is phone mad. Facebook is full of people seemingly having a wonderful time, lets face it we're not going to show pictures of misery and things going wrong in our lives. This constant bombardment of things such as strava isn't healthy either, too competitive and taking away time from doing proper things. Family life gets disrupted when screen time takes up hobbies,sport or activities that can be done together.
As a female it is indeed easier to talk about mental health issues to other females. Men do need to take note and talk about their depression. It's so important.
I've spoken to complete strangers and just started to ask questions and trying to listen. Men often open up to me (when I used to lead walks, or in the local swimming baths, even out mtbing in the hills).
Sorry for waffling on but if one life can be saved and help given then that is worth it.
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Rant\Society is ****. We’ve no community any more. We live in bubbles isolated by distance from family and friends. Kids can’t play in the park because of all the dogshit. We work, watch telly and sleep.
Agree with this. My wifes family were/are pretty well of Filipinos - she went to an American international school then a UK university. She's clever, speaks three more languages than I do and English in an American accent, works in finance and earns a good whack. She's a bit of a melancholy soul though.
Some of her extended family are pretty poor, tin roofing etc - not living in a shanty town but live day to day, most of the older males are dead, lots of kids and unemployed family members. However, they always have massive shit eating grins - the family and friendship bonds are strong and the weather is good.
When you see populations in very poor countries there doesn’t seem to be much depression. In our first world consumer driven country it seems that we expect to have a right to happiness.
It's not that westerners have an expectation to be happy, it's that a lot of developing worlders are happier. For the reasons TJ states and my points above.
Even the people who work long hours in Vietnam, Thailand and the Philippines are happier - because at night time - food is cheap, the cities are vibrant 24/7, you can always afford to eat street food out with your friends after work if you are a professional, you stay out late with friends and family, enjoy the smells and good company and then crash out for 6 hours and rinse and repeat.
Men often open up to me (when I used to lead walks, or in the local swimming baths, even out mtbing in the hills).
If you have a male friend who you feel needs to talk then take the above route and do something where you will be side by side and not face to face and will have another reason to be there. A few years ago I listened to an ex soldier on Radio 4 talking about his work with men suffering from depression and he took them walking while they talked.He made the point that men opened up far more that way, he likened it to sitting at a bar where you'd get far more out of someone than sat across a table. I also recall an ex colleague who always said how his son only really talked openly to him when they were walking or cycling together.
Such a shame, but you have to want to help yourself too.
That's real tricky, just starting on helping a family member on this long journey
Hate to say this, but I think in private industry the attitude of "pull yourself together" still exists, and the pace of communication that exists now is not helpful.
I'm 55, when I first started working we had the telex, which moved onto fax, then it sped up with email, then email on your phone. There is no escape from technology, and it's destroying families, communities, society.
I don't think technology is itself to blame, how we use it reflects social attitudes towards commercialism, inclusion and status. For myself it's a lifeline where I can communicate to such diverse network of people, whereas I can't in my physical life.
A month before he killed himself my dad came home in tears saying that he'd made a mistake and had to speak to my mum, he never spoke to anyone about it despite having a lot of good friends. A week after my 17th birthday I had an argument with him and told him where to go, the next morning he decided to take the day off work as he had a headache and went to put his van in the lockup. He was found 4 days later, then buried on Christmas eve.
It's not the memories which hurt but the social stigma it attached to those who were left behind did. It's not talked about, even as a family and my mum was a therapist!
I've felt a sob rise a few times reading this thread, some of you are having such a rough time and others have been so thoughtful and taken time out to let someone know that they care and to just listen. Unfortunately it's rare, it takes a lot of courage to talk of the difficulties you are having, and too many dismiss concerns or issues as drama or chin up if you're feeling not worthy.
aweeshoe - I am so sorry to read your post. Your situation is one I wouldn't wish on anyone.
bunnyhop x
but something must have been seriously wrong in his mind
Ever been to a party where everyone is having a great time, but you feel a little out of place? You try to get along and wear a smile, it's a party after all so you want to look happy like everyone else. But secretly you're just waiting for the right moment to slip away unnoticed confident that no one will miss you when you're gone.
I guess for some people life is a bit like this.
Ever been to a party where everyone is having a great time, but you feel a little out of place?
Sounds similar to a guy I was talking to the other day. He said, no matter what was going on around him, he felt like the 'designated driver' on a night out. Irrespective of who he was with, or where, it was like he was missing out/not enjoying himself like everyone else. This made him feel that he was different to everyone else & that feeling made him feel like he didn't belong/fit in whether socially or at work.
His turning point was both simple & fortuitous. He was asked to walk his mum's dog as she'd hurt her knee. He didn't want to but did so & within minutes, another dog came over (as they do) & the owner followed & started talking to him. They walked round the park for 45 mins & he completely opened up to the stranger. Since then he's sought help & is getting his life back (& has a new friend in that dog walker).
He considers himself one of the lucky ones.
Ever been to a party where everyone is having a great time, but you feel a little out of place? You try to get along and wear a smile, it’s a party after all so you want to look happy like everyone else. But secretly you’re just waiting for the right moment to slip away unnoticed confident that no one will miss you when you’re gone.
I guess for some people life is a bit like this.
That’s what I was trying to say earlier in the thread, but you’ve explained it so much better than I did.
aweeshoe after your kind words to me I can't imagine what you went through and I'm sorry that you had to.
Nobby, every now and then you read a summary that describes how you feel more eloquently than you could. What you wrote is that for me. I've never felt I fitted in and have always been an outsider even with those I love and who love me.
Ever been to a party where everyone is having a great time, but you feel a little out of place? You try to get along and wear a smile, it’s a party after all so you want to look happy like everyone else. But secretly you’re just waiting for the right moment to slip away unnoticed confident that no one will miss you when you’re gone.
I guess for some people life is a bit like this.
That is a very good description of it. And unfortunately that describes me and my way of thinking. Thinking back to my teens, I've always been this way so maybe it's a long term underlying issue I've not faced or dealt with.
The only place (I hope) I fit in is here. But I question that sometimes too.
I never contribute to these threads, but I always read them. Someone always comes out with a little nugget of info or a description of something that I can directly relate to. It's a useful reminder that no matter how far down you are your situation is far from uniquely horrible.
This struck a chord with me yesterday,
The thing is, once you’ve been to a place where you’ve considered ending it all it’s pretty tough to get all the way back. I’ve never managed it.
That's how I tried to explain it to my girlfriend. I feel like I've been so far down for so long that I can't come all the way back to normal. I never fully switch off or fully enjoy myself. It's ruined my family and social life. Everything i do for 'fun' is just a distraction. As soon as it's over and I'm on my own my brain goes straight back to the same old places.
I'm alright at the minute, everything is going well, but I'm not the same person I used to be. It's when you can't get any enjoyment from the things that you know you love it just feels like all the reasons to do anything have been sucked out of your life. When all the things that usually get you excited or cheer you up stop working, why bother with them? Getting ready for a bike ride now is a major battle which half the time I lose and I just waste the day.
I can't type much more, I'm at work but I'll keep reading.
Stevet1 - Exactly this. Even at large family gatherings I'll find somewhere to hide away.
Ever been to a party where everyone is having a great time, but you feel a little out of place? You try to get along and wear a smile, it’s a party after all so you want to look happy like everyone else. But secretly you’re just waiting for the right moment to slip away unnoticed confident that no one will miss you when you’re gone.
I guess for some people life is a bit like this.
every single ****ing day of my life for the past couple of years or so. it's awful. and i don't feel able to talk to anyone about it, because i just assume i'm an annoyance. literally the only thing keeping me going is my little boy.
Is this ^^^^^^ not just your personality? I.e an introvert as opposed to an extrovert? I used to feel jealous of people that were life and soul of any gathering as opposed to how i have always been, but I have just accepted that that is how I am and am happy with it this way.
I'm not trying to make light of any issues raised here, I know its a very serious issue and something that a lot of people are struggling with.
i think, for me definitely, there's an element of being an introvert to it, yes. but it doesn't explain it all, i mean i don't go to parties if i can help it anyway but feeling like i'm out of place even when just in a public place with a few people isn't simple personality type, is it?
gonefishin, the guy who said those words to me had spent a good 30 years of his life believing he didn't fit in, even with his limited circle of friends. The mini-epiphany he had when, for the first time he could remember, a complete stranger spoke to him without reason (not a shop assistant, colleague etc) was all it took to turn a corner. He says he's a long way from getting his head fully straight but the therapy he's been having has taught him that we are all different and that any perceived 'norm' is simply a construct of society.
I did suggest he got a bike & started riding a bit (he's not really a walker nor can he have a dog of his own at the moment) as they do seem to have a way of disarming people's natural wariness of strangers. There's also other cyclists who will usually be happy to pootle along with you talking absolute **** too.
He reminds himself every day that many of the most influential humans that ever lived didn't exactly fit in or conform to 'normality', whatever that might be. I think that's sound advice for anyone.
Edit: Just remembered that a much younger lad on the same walk said he often felt like "a fish in a tree" which struck a chord with quite a few. Thought that was funny at first but it soon made sense listening to them talk.
I'm another one who is on the fringes and never fitted in, it's a lonely place to be and I reached out to someone I thought was a friend but was told that I'm a drama queen (among other insults, and this person wants to be a special needs mtb coach!) . I no longer have any friends to turn to when I'm down as I'm autistic, and reluctantly beginning to accept that I won't ever be
feeling like i’m out of place even when just in a public place with a few people isn’t simple personality type, is it?
xherbivorex (and others) - You. are. not. alone.
Edit - meant that in a reassuring way, rather then a serial killer hiding in your attic kind of way.
The thing is, once you’ve been to a place where you’ve considered ending it all it’s pretty tough to get all the way back. I’ve never managed it.
That’s how I tried to explain it to my girlfriend. I feel like I’ve been so far down for so long that I can’t come all the way back to normal. I never fully switch off or fully enjoy myself. It’s ruined my family and social life. Everything i do for ‘fun’ is just a distraction. As soon as it’s over and I’m on my own my brain goes straight back to the same old places.
I’m alright at the minute, everything is going well, but I’m not the same person I used to be. It’s when you can’t get any enjoyment from the things that you know you love it just feels like all the reasons to do anything have been sucked out of your life. When all the things that usually get you excited or cheer you up stop working, why bother with them? Getting ready for a bike ride now is a major battle which half the time I lose and I just waste the day.
Funny thing is that I typed what struck a chord with you and you’re response has done the same for me. The worst part for me is how it affects my wife, she deserves better. Living with someone who has depression is really hard.
My biggest fear is that the kids will pick up on it and I don’t want my problems to impact them. My little immediate family are my life raft and I cling to them for dear life. My son telling me about his day (mostly made up craziness) and cuddling my sweet natured daughter or just watching her amble about are the things I still take pleasure from.
Funny thing is that I typed what struck a chord with you and you’re response has done the same for me.
See that's why this place is amazing sometimes!
I don't feel like I explained the second bit very well. I just think years ago I had lots of things that were guaranteed pick-me-ups that would get me out of a slump. Now, when I'm doing something or in a situation where I should be thrilled or excited or whatever, I'm just not into it and finding yourself indifferent about what used to be your passions give me a huge deflating sense of 'well what's the point?' I get really miserable about the thought that I used to have so much going on in my life and I've let almost all of it go.
My girlfriend is an absolute saint. I've literally never met a nicer, more generous person in my life. I don't have crazy mood swings or treat her badly or anything but when I'm in a slump I'm not much fun to be around. She always just knows to do the right thing at the right time. We don't have kids yet. I'm terrified in case they grow up like me!
Hate to say this, but I think in private industry the attitude of “pull yourself together” still exists, and the pace of communication that exists now is not helpful.
This attitude is still incredibly prevalent. Privately people do feel some sympathy - although often they'll feel unable to help because they think it's so incomprehensible - but outwardly and in business settings the default is still there's something "wrong" with you.
And "wrong" -> "weird" -> "disturbing/ not someone you want to work with".
So it's like the onus is on *you* to pull yourself together and sort it out. Possibly some of this is perception that we imagine in our heads, but there's still a gap between the public statements of "we encourage people to talk about it" and the actual behaviour and support in the workplace.
And if you find yourself in tears at your desk because... well, you don't really know why... where tf do you start in trying to explain to colleagues that this is OK, it just comes and goes but mostly you have it under control?
I’m another one who is on the fringes and never fitted in, it’s a lonely place to be and I reached out to someone I thought was a friend but was told that I’m a drama queen (among other insults, and this person wants to be a special needs mtb coach!) . I no longer have any friends to turn to when I’m down as I’m autistic, and reluctantly beginning to accept that I won’t ever be
As a fellow ASD I sometimes feel this and go through stages of wanting alone time and to wallow in it, but my friends are there because they want to be and are pretty good at giving me a reason to come out of it.
All my closest friends I made as an adult, so there's no reason why you can't make new and brilliant friends right now. I've got an incredibly understanding and supportive mate who I've only known a couple of years but can turn to if i need to talk.
Whatever your passion is, there must be an avenue to meet new people through that?
See that’s why this place is amazing sometimes!
I don’t feel like I explained the second bit very well. I just think years ago I had lots of things that were guaranteed pick-me-ups that would get me out of a slump. Now, when I’m doing something or in a situation where I should be thrilled or excited or whatever, I’m just not into it and finding yourself indifferent about what used to be your passions give me a huge deflating sense of ‘well what’s the point?’ I get really miserable about the thought that I used to have so much going on in my life and I’ve let almost all of it go.
Sums up my feelings too. Nothing surprises me any more, be that in a good or bad way. I just have a kind of detachment from 99.9% of the things going on around me. Recently quit going to the gym and slowly losing interest in other pursuits as my motivation has gone completely.
The thing is I don’t know how much of this feeling is down to antidepressants. They kind of numb me and I can’t weigh up if the pros (not getting as low, more stable mood, no panic attack’s etc) outweigh the cons (feeling like a robot, loss of really good moods etc). Keep toying with coming off them as it’s been five years now. Not sure how I’ll be though and that worries me.
I should have really created another login before unloading on this thread 😂
It’s not the memories which hurt but the social stigma it attached to those who were left behind did. It’s not talked about, even as a family and my mum was a therapist!
This.
When my brother took his own life we found that some people shied away from us and the subject was always quickly moved along if I made the mistake of mentioning it in conversation. We also found that the police & coroners assistants etc treated it still as a crime - his truck was continually referred to as a crime scene etc.
The inquest was awful - ghouls in the public gallery whispering excitedly whenever anything came up of interest.
As I mentioned earlier I do feel that the stress caused by the whole prolonged experience was a direct cause of my mother's cancer. Although she didn't help matters herself by refusing to talk about it to anyone other than immediate family. When she was dying I had to contact her relatives and explain that she was dying and then also explain that my brother took his own life last year - which was slightly awkward.
Privately people do feel some sympathy – although often they’ll feel unable to help because they think it’s so incomprehensible – but outwardly and in business settings the default is still there’s something “wrong” with you.
And “wrong” -> “weird” -> “disturbing/ not someone you want to work with”.So it’s like the onus is on *you* to pull yourself together and sort it out. Possibly some of this is perception that we imagine in our heads, but there’s still a gap between the public statements of “we encourage people to talk about it” and the actual behaviour and support in the workplace.
And if you find yourself in tears at your desk because… well, you don’t really know why… where tf do you start in trying to explain to colleagues that this is OK, it just comes and goes but mostly you have it under control?
this is definitely my experience at my work- employer made a big show of "supporting" mental health awareness week/month, but actual, genuine empathy, understanding and support for anyone who needed it was more or less non-existent. and as for direct line managers/colleagues- nope. "hand back your man card" was said to me one day after a bit of an episode at my desk when things got too much for me.
Lots of reasons, lots of suffering, but one sentence stands out from all the above, "talk to somebody", they will usually listen, if they dont try someone else, a bike ride, a walk a drive in a vehicle, all help to start chat.
“hand back your man card” was said to me one day after a bit of an episode at my desk when things got too much for me.
Just wow. If I'd been there I'd have ignored my usual self control & punched his 'man card' into next week.
I think I'm fortunate that whilst my employer also "makes the right noises", they are fairly proactive. They openly encourage (& pay for) staff to undertake awareness training including 'mental first aid' with MHFA England.
One of the things I hate most about British culture is the 'stiff upper lip' tosh - it's grade A arse-chutney.
I'll happily listen to/talk to anyone.
Nobody is super human. Looking after the mind/head is as important as the body. Iv'e been on various CBT and counselling sessions the last 6 months - it's helped me cope (massive injury plus work pressure, finances and family issues - carer responsibility). Getting through it, but now have more work crap, but I'm 'well' enough to fight back and not take shoot from my employer.
I did need encouraging to get help, but it has worked. Fixing the head is important. As a fella it's too easy to feel a failure and it just gets worse.
just been to visit my son and his girlfriend.
they are in total turmoil.
they have spent the week trying to get to the bottom of all the hidden stuff that her husband has left.
lots and lots of debt from payday lenders, a house falling apart around him, and a girlfriend with a 3 month child that nobody knew about.
poor lad must have been in turmoil.
lots and lots of debt from payday lenders, a house falling apart around him, and a girlfriend with a 3 month child that nobody knew about.
poor lad must have been in turmoil.
& I'd be very surprised if his job had absolutely nothing to do with it as well Tony.
xherbivorex I think that you work in Manchester? If ever want to meet up for a coffee or a burrito or something then let me know. I'm happy to talk about anything or nothing 🙂
Ton - just sent you a PM.
Ton, sorry to read about that. I’d like to reiterate what others have said: do find someone to talk to and if you don’t have someone, do take up the offers here. Don’t hang around, just do it. I do fear that, as others have said, the loss of community makes people feel considerably more vulnerable and there is a lack of peer support.
Last September I set up a dads group when junior started at primary school, because it seemed to me that dads walk in the shadow of the mums during school time. My hope was that dads would have a group to meet up with each month for a beer and some grub and shoot the breeze, have a bit of banter, but also talk about the kid(s) and any issues at school or otherwise. Word has already got around with someone saying they wish they had a dads group.
just logged on anonymously, although I have been a member of Stw for longer that I care to remember, Its heartening to know there are so many others struggling with mental health issues and getting such good advice on here. It seems bewildering the amount of differing advice I have had over the years, I have tried the meds, but none have worked for me, I am currently taking counselling (cbt) and it seems to be helping a bit.
I think its worth mentioning the isolation and loneliness I feel while depressed, I hide it well in my office job but I could be sitting on the moon in my head as I don't often feel "in the present".
If you suspect some one isn't quite 100% I think the best thing you can do is to simply take them out for a walk/ride whatever and talk things through, someone is much more likely to open up and discuss things while actually doing something than being in a social situation.
If you suspect some one isn’t quite 100%
I think the main problem with this is that you usually don't. The OP (Ton) knew the lad that the initial thread is about. I also knew him in passing at work & I know lots of people that knew him who all agree that there were no indications of any real issues that he had.
Crying shame.
I lost a friend to suicide in 2016.
Incidentally, my next door neighbour (another Ben) lost his best childhood friend around the same time.
He's in media and spent 18 months working on Steve: A Documentary, which has just been released.
Ben is now touring the UK showing the film and is pretty heavily involved in the male mental health scene.
Do watch it if you've contributed to this thread.*
*Disclaimer: I'm on for a split second talking about how biking helps my mental health.
"They don't listen"
I do.
I am.
I understand people's good intentions by saying that you should "talk to someone" (as long as it's not them) or "seek help" (you're ****ed) I've asked for help, friends dismissed it and professionals just want to make money out of misery. It left me feeling worse than I did before. I've found that I've opened up to the wrong people, they've either not been able to cope or manipulated me.
So if you are in a position where you are willing to reach out to someone, give them some of your time and ask them if thing's are ok and then listen, only offer advice if asked. Don't expect to sort someone's life out over one pint or bike ride, they may need more time and if you can then give it. You don't have to be good friends, or even an aquaitence to make a difference, just a decent human being.