[Closed] STW:argue....

Now clearly if i wereto start meeting folks from here than it might lead to some awkwardness

Really ? Meeting folk from here has never caused me awkwardness, nor would I expect it to.

It's a different type of social media but the messages and the intent of those messages can be the same. I utterly fail to comprehend how you think communication on here is to be treated less seriously than elsewhere? It's complete nonsense. The policeman resigned because he didnt realise in time that there is no difference. He does now but it's too late. He's lost his job.

Do,you really think all communication is to be treated equally seriously?

Really ? Meeting folk from here has never caused me awkwardness, nor would I expect it to.

No, but it [i]might[/i].

STW: argue ...what an excellent thread title!

nothing about being a union person, johndoh-- its all about perspective....

So CM, you think because your never going to meet anyone from here, none of those people are real ?

People are real, the internetz virtual , not that hard to grasp.
But it doesn't give one the right to act badly just cos it isn't real.

So CM, you think because your never going to meet anyone from here, none of those people are real ?

In the mathematical sense, they are not. Of course i know they are flesh and blood. But they are not real beyond this forum as they have no effect outside of it.

you think because your never going to meet anyone from here, none of those people are real ?

It all depends what reference frame you're using.

Aracer has it!

and perhaps, what reference frame the other users are using..?

Of course, but my stw world does not overlap with my real world, so for me it's not real and i'm not real in their world

Yay, it's "deprive the moderators of any free time" week!

Regarding the arguing thing, I know at least three MTB racers who are in proper sponsored teams, plus a couple of other very fast riders, who would all be an asset to any MTB forum, yet they won't post on STW, or post very rarely, because of the atmosphere here.

STW's got a bit of a reputation for banning people who type the word shobgite, while doing nothing to stop people acting like one.

If they ride bikes and don't like arguments, just what benefit would they be?

In the mathematical sense, they are not. Of course i know they are flesh and blood. But they are not real beyond this forum as they have no effect outside of it.

So you have decided that people here have no effect.

But you may have an effect on them. You have no way of knowing.

Just like real life 😉

So you have decided that people here have no effect.

It wasn't a decision, it's just the way it is

But you may have an effect on them. You have no way of knowing.

This is The point we are discussing, that my actions need not affect their real world unless they choose to have it so.

ICharlieMungus - Member
Of course, but my stw world does not overlap with my real world, so for me it's not real and i'm not real in their world

It's maths. Set theory probably.

Back in the mists of time (or GoFar as it was known) all [i]this[/i] was about a bit of chat between meeting up in real life. Bonkers I know, but a lot of people who've been around here a long time have met and know a lot of people on here in real life. It's not 'virtual', they're real people, friends in fact.

Now a lot of those people have moved along, but that's the ethos that Mark et al have tried to maintain, despite what a lot of other people think the Internet is for. Some of us were writing shit and arguing about bikes on the Internet a good (ahem) 18 years plus ago... all using our real names and actual email addresses, no hiding or pretending its just 'virtual'.

This is real life, so grow a pair and deal with it.

so it's fredbra's facebook page....

shocking and sad in unequal measures. 😕

This is The point we are discussing, that my actions need not affect their real world unless they choose to have it so.

So as I said, it can have a real effect, on real people.

And you have no way of knowing what that effect is.

So it's real life, wether you like that or not.

Yes, it can, of course it can i've seen that it can. The point is that it needn't

This is real life, so grow a pair and deal with it

Oh! I see! Well, i don't know why no one said that before. All much clearer now, thanks!.

Yes, it can, of course it can i've seen that it can. The point is that it needn't

So we agree then really. People don't[b] have [/b]to be effected by it, but they very often are.

So the standard claim that "it's the Internet, its not real life" isn't really true.

I utterly fail to comprehend how you think communication on here is to be treated less seriously than elsewhere? It's complete nonsense.

Mark, your comprehension failure doesn't make your opinion correct. This is an Internet discussion forum where people who've never met can discuss things in their free time under the protection of anonymity. By definition it is therefore a lot less serious than almost any other form of communication

I can appreciate that you take it seriously as the forum is a major part of yours and you staff's livelihoods. But you really can't class it as a medium of serious discussion. At best, it is like being in a pub and another group the other side say something you disagree with. I'd be very surprised if you went and did something about that; most would just ignore them. And it would soon be a very empty pub if as landlord you barred everyone who said something that might be construed as offensive by a hypothetical someone.

ISTR we did the analogy about the pub landlord banning the bloke everybody thumped when a certain member got banhammered 😉

So we agree then really. People don't have to be affected by it, but they very often are.

So the standard claim that "it's the Internet, its not real life" isn't really true.

Maybe not, but you can see why folks might see it differently.

It's not real.
If you piss someone off in the pub, they punch you.
If you piss someone off on stw, they sulk and leave.
There is a big difference between talking too someone via a keyboard, and in real life.

So wether you get punched or not is your frame of reference for gauging if something is real.

Ok 😐

I am struggling to understand those who think it's ok to type unpleasant and insulting things on their keyboards, based on the imaginary premise that "It's not real". If someone tells you your mama's so fat that (insert degrading metaphor here), you'll feel hurt, angry and upset. These feelings are real. Your feelings are real. Post bearing this in mind.

And there is a crossover - I bought a bike on here last week which turned out to be a hopeless wreck. This 'unimportant internet interaction' has left me less trustworthy and skint.

Do as you would be done by is good enough for me online and offline

Edit: I had to roll her in flour btw.

If someone tells you your mama's so fat that (insert degrading metaphor here), you'll feel hurt, angry and upset.

If you're so easily upset by things that perhaps you shouldn't be in real life, never mind the internet, then yes.

Or, you might just assume that either it was a crap joke and no hard feelings, or that they're a moron, and get on with your life.

Thats the point.
Most people say things on the internet, that they wouldn't say in real life.

Oh stop being silly. I'm no wilting flower zokes, but I'm pretty sure no-one likes being insulted, either over the ether or in real life. If you've never been upset by something you've read or seen online, I respectfully suggest you need to MTFdown.

It really is not hard to be a pleasant and respectful human being, even whilst making a point, having a humorous dig or refuting a point of view. A modicum of dignity and self respect helps. In the pub or on here - zero difference in my eyes.

Oh stop being silly

Right. I'm offended!

It really is not hard to be a pleasant and respectful human being, even whilst making a point, having a humorous dig or refuting a point of view. A modicum of dignity and self respect helps. In the pub or on here - zero difference in my eyes.

Correct. But just as with the pub, if someone says something I don't like on here, I generally ignore it. I don't go on some self-righteous holier-than-thou crusade to stop people saying things in the fear that somewhere, someone might be slightly upset or offended.

IIRC, general advice as a child was to ignore idiots and they'll go away. That seems particularly pertinent advice when dealing with internet trolls. Personally I've got much bigger things to worry about than whether or not someone somewhere might be slightly offended by something I've said or heard.

And as for whether people like being insulted or not, well that comes back to it. You can choose to get all worked up about it, citing cases of psychological damage reported in the red tops, or you can choose to ignore it. The people I know who ignore these slight niggles in life seem much happier and more well rounded individuals than the few who take life far far too seriously, be it on the internet or not.

self-righteous holier-than-thou crusade to stop people saying things in the fear that somewhere, someone might be slightly upset or offended.

Honestly a bit bemused - who's done this? Do you mean Fred? Or me? This has gone so far OT that I'm not sure what we're discussing any more.

I fully agree that ignoring bellends is a good policy but there's no harm in encouraging people not to be bellends.

It really is not hard to be a pleasant and respectful human being

STW often provides evidence to the contrary.

He's feeding off this thread.

yup.. stw:argue has some new members since this thread was launched.. 😀

Personally I've got much bigger things to worry about than whether or not someone somewhere might be slightly offended by something I've said

that is very clear

that is very clear

Good.

Offence is taken, not given. I find making the decision not to be offended by many things keeps my blood pressure nice and low. That advice might be quite useful to a good few on here, handwringing or otherwise.

So if the Internet is not real, I assume it is okay to tell everyone I am going assassinate someone famous or write racist or homophobic rhetoric then?

So thats why you decided to make offensive comments about welsh people? I too am happy to be offensive but I reserve such comments for those that desrve them. Same as real life if people make their offensive views known I will challenge them over it. Its not about having decided to be offended its about having respect for yourself.

I like Zokes defence..

'I have the capacity to be an unbearably odious little prick, in fact I quite enjoy it, but I'm going to tell you how to deal with it.. after that, if you can't cope with me it's your problem..'

You're correct Zokes.. that's certainly the way to enjoy life..

Me and my bezzers lived like that in the pubs around town for many years.. I'm just not really certain that it's the answer to society's ills though.. 😆

Zokes you are such a hypocrite 😆

[img] [/img]

That Facebook page is quite something. What a sad, sad, little man. He really has got issues.

Still waitng for answers from Mark and nealglover

While I agree that it is much more pleasant to have a decent standard of behaviour on here, I' m definitely in the 'Internet isn't real' side of the argument. I suspect the vast majority of people here 'troll' to the extent they feel able to say things to perfect strangers they wouldn't in real life.
Take the 'Overtaking' thread for example. As molgrips keeps pointing out. Nobody has actually ever seen him drive. That doesn't stop people from inferring all sorts of things about his driving based on what he has posted. This is why he keeps complaining that people don't understand/misrepresent him. But the fact remains molgrips could be an absolutely fantastic driver, he could be confident, decisive, whatever. He could be Lewis Hamilton in disguise and just having a laugh for all we know. Until someone pops up to say
'I've actually driven with molgrips & he makes my granny look like Stirling Moss' then all the suppositions people make are just that. Molgrips would be stupid to take offence at what people say about his ability to overtake. The reality of the Internet is just a mental construct which passes through multiple filters before it reflects the real world. I could be Steve Peat's more talented & fearless younger brother or my username could be entirely accurate. Until you ride with me you won't know, so personally I wouldn't take anything anyone says on here to heart until they have met me in the flesh.

This 'unimportant internet interaction' has left me less trustworthy and skint.

I'm sure you meant "trusting" rather than "trustworthy", but in a way, according to some you're right. It's your fault that you bought the shitty bike.

My point is that if youreal life and your internet life do not overlap then you may be offfended on line but you can easily walk away from it and get on with other things

Correct. But just as with the pub, if someone says something I don't like on here, I generally ignore it. I don't go on some self-righteous holier-than-thou crusade to stop people saying things in the fear that somewhere, someone might be slightly upset or offended.

Except when someone said your friend wasn't as hot as she thought she was, and you threw a massive hissy fit - getting all 'offended on her behalf', even though she wasn't bothered.

the simple fact is, offence is taken, not given

That's not always the case though is it..?
I like to think that I'm more than capable of giving offence when the situation calls for it..

Still waitng for answers from Mark and nealglover

You seem to be taken this too seriously, maybe you should walk away.

So thats why you decided to make offensive comments about welsh people?

When / where? Just because you appear to have a very poor temperament thankfully doesn't mean the entire populace of a country does.

You seem to be taken this too seriously, maybe you should walk away.

I wonder how seriously he's taking this in 'real life'

Except when someone said your friend wasn't as hot as she thought she was, and you threw a massive hissy fit - getting all 'offended on her behalf', even though she wasn't bothered.

Oh! 🙂

There's a word I'm thinking of...begins with P, ends with D, five letters...

AARGH!

It's all bloody real, but I can understand where people are trying to draw boundaries, but there are none - no such thing, it's a mental construct for some people, which is fine, that's your noggin looking after itself.

We all know communication is at root of our evolution and we all convey and interpret facial expressions, grunts and things we write down.

The format is irrespective in terms of defining what is 'real'.

You have have more, and a better quality of information to interpret when face to face with someone, and less when on this new fangled interweb, using just the written word.

It's all communication, it's all interpreted, it's all fine 😀

I wonder how seriously he's taking this in 'real life'

Her online/offline persona don't interact so how would anyone know.

good work there bearnecessities.. good work

It's all a matter of personal detachment, well for me it is anyway.

A direct face to face interaction will always have more 'real life' feel than a trolling comment on the EDL Facebook page.

Face to face = real life factor 100
Work email = 72
STW = 48
Yahoo comments = -247

They all involve real life, but some have more impact than others.

My name is Piemonster, my perception of the world may vary to yours.

Edited to revalue STW

Her online/offline persona don't interact so how would anyone know.

We are all wired in now, maybe there is no offline anymore

Ooowwwwooooooowwoooo cue tetchy matrix music

When you came blundering into a previous rugby thread making all sorts of sweeping negative generalisations about the welsh. Thats known as racism. Edited to say this is in response to Zokes.

Still waitng for answers from Mark and nealglover
You seem to be taken this too seriously, maybe you should walk away.

Well, it didn't keep me awake and once i close this it won't bother me. See, the thing is i know you havevthe ultimate control as a mod, but within that i can choose when to walk away.. An example is where you were posting some racist comments a while back, it annoyed me, but only when i read them. Once i closed down, it didn't bother me that there was a forum out there with a racist mod. I know there are plenty more, but they don't bother me either.

Once i closed down, it didn't bother me that there was a forum out there with a racist mod. I know there are plenty more, but they don't bother me either.

only it very obviously did bother you.. as you have plainly stated here..

This is proved by the fact that you still hold a grudge about it and are raising it again now.. so yes, I would say it bothered you a fair bit.. 😀

When i am on here and only then.

I don't hold a grudge, there is no one to hold a grudge against. I brought it up as an example

Of course i know they are flesh and blood. But they are not real beyond this forum as they have no effect outside of it.

I had a chat with a psychologist at work about this once, and alas I can't remember the name he gave this particular thought process (dissociative anonymity springs to mind, but I'm not sure about that).

Anyway, it's the same thought process that allows some people act like dicks when they get behind the wheel of a car and behave in a manner that they never would if they met those same people if they were walking rather than driving.

Of course psychologists will have a name for it.

An example is where you were posting some racist comments a while back, it annoyed me, but only when i read them. Once i closed down, it didn't bother me that there was a forum out there with a racist mod.

Ah the food thread from months ago but look you seem to have come back, as predicted, and now you posting about something you'd forgot about but clearly haven't.

This is the point and bearnecessaties has given a good example. It's a form of communication which means you are interacting with people, that means some people can be offended by what you post. This makes it real no matter how you deal with it.

Your own example being you took huge offensive to what I call Chinese food, I was honest and open that I didn't think it was offensive but yet clearly it was to some. Because some people on here said they found it offensive I agreed to stop using it here, I'll continue to use it amongst those who I know don't find it offensive.

Can you see now?

Complicated stuff this wwwdotpsychology isn't it?

S'gonna keep psychology bods and philosophers scratching their head for blinkin' aeons I reckon..

You're all just voices in my head, be quiet your giving me a headache.

Well, it's either you or that red wine. Probably you, hard to blame you of course with you not being real.....but I found a way.

Here you go zokes:

The only difference being if we were all in a pub, and STR came out with that line, I suspect there would have been a queue of WGs friends ready to flatten him. [b]It's all very well making offensive comments from behind your keyboard, but just remember it is a real person on the end of them.[/b] In this instance, that real person happens to be a friend of mine, hence why I might appear a little narked.

Care to try and explain why posting the above doesn't make you a massive hypocrite? 🙂

When you came blundering into a previous rugby thread making all sorts of sweeping negative generalisations about the welsh. That's known as racism.

As you do so about the English, does that make you racist?

As an Englishman who spent ten years watching the 6N in North Wales, I can assure you that on certain days there were definite no-go areas for anyone not wearing red. That and the despicable behaviour by the Welsh fans at the first Eng vs Wal football match in a long time, with jeering by the Welsh supporters through the minute's silence for Ken Bigley.

Not sure which is more pathetic, Fred's vanity ranty shit or this navel gazing shit.

Not worth pondering any further on the matter, so I'm going for a ride instead.

Not worth pondering any further on the matter, so I'm going for a ride instead.

A real ride?

The difference is Zokes I've never made racist comments about the english just had impassind debates with the likes of wrecker about the relatives merits of dan cole and adam jones or whatever.

Wow, that vanity site is perhaps the saddest thing I've seen on line in a long time.

What a lonely fella.

A real ride?

State of my back at the moment, I'll only manage a virtual one on YouTube

Sigh

Care to try and explain why posting the above doesn't make you a massive hypocrite?

Well, clearly I chose to take offense. I could (should) have taken piggy's view and just laughed at him instead.

The difference is Zokes I've never made racist comments about the english just had impassind debates with the likes of wrecker about the relatives merits of dan cole and adam jones or whatever.

If they've upset you so much, why don't you just post them up, then I can see whether I either still stand by them, or can apologise? It seems to have been quite a long time ago.

You do seem to hate all things about English rugby though, with the main reason for this being that they're English. That, sir, is by your own definition, racism.

Still waitng for answers from Mark and nealglover

What's the question ?

Captain, that sounds like good advice and it's not raining here as predicted.

Personally I've got much bigger things to worry about than whether or not someone somewhere might be slightly offended by something I've said or heard.

Zokes, excuse me quoting you as this is not meant to be a personal comment, but I think this one sentence sums a lot up. Some reflection (hopefully while on a ride) about exactly what this kind of sentiment Is saying may not go amiss? It would make the "is it real" debate redundant.

One of the oddities about this thread is the page and a half of regular and unmoderated use of swear words (shit, prick,dick, nob etc) including mods and Mark. I have never understood what the swearing policy on here is and what is/is not expected from forumites?

morning all -- seems the knicker twisters have arrived, --- like real life,there are those whose views and values you respect, and there are the polar opposite-- just like on here .....so it is real...