[Closed] STW Junior Designer job £15.6k- did I read that right?

I am a terrible pedant.

So why do you keep using the term "average" instead of mean? (clearly my point wasn't explicit enough for you)

I'd have whoever created the report publicly flogged.

Along with anybody with a post-grad degree in stats who continually uses the term "average" instead of mean?

glitchy bump

Why is a degree required? I can't believe people will put themselves through uni for 3/4/5 years and then take that salary - it's derisory.

The most shocking part is that it's part funded by the EU! I dread to think what it'd be without their contribution.

PS. The median is as valid an average as the mean (or the mode for that matter). It is also the average the ONS use when quoting salaries as it's less skewed by banks. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/nov/12/pay-salaries-survey-ashe-ons

I dread to think what it'd be without their contribution.

Non-existent presumably.

Why is a degree required? I can't believe people will put themselves through uni for 3/4/5 years and then take that salary - it's derisory.

Sweet Jesus of Nazareth... 🙄

I went to uniservity to get an [i]education[/i], not simply to get a job paying £Xthousands of pounds a year.

I got what I went for, and would do it again in a heartbeat, even if I had to pay loads for doing so.

The experience gained from being in an environment with so many talented and intelligent people around you all the time, sharing ideas, learning new stuffs, cannot be commodified or quantified.

As for 'they take anyone these days'; well, apart from me, the uni I went to din't, they had very high standards indeed. Which is why so many foreign students were happy to pay thousands and thousands of pounds to go there. I'm well chuffed to have gone to such a wonderful place.

Uni isn't the only place for education

True, but it's a bloody good one though, and I find it quite sad that someone who has no personal experience of it would be actively opposed to their own child going.

And those of us who worked in engineering and got city and guilds and apprenticesghip indenturesthen and qualiifed as a craftsmen think differently.

Sadly nowadays just saying youre going to some technical college that is now rebranded as a uni, and geting some weird degree in a made up subject that you could study at night school or part time with a gulllable employer paying for the course is seen as great and good for the masses.

Then when you go to an employer with your bit of paper saying youve been book learning for 3 years reading about and writing about some weird subject, and he politely points out you dont have the relevant experience, or personality, or even relevat paper qualifications to do the job.

Welcome to the real world.

...actually, it's even more concerning that somebody with a post-grad degree in stats trys to shoot down people's shock that the "average" starting salary is £29k by pointing out that £29k is the median, when that actually means the average is even higher (and median is the correct average to use for salaries as it avoids the distortion created by a few earning silly amounts).

Why offer more than you need to get the right candidate? Only once the person is working for you do you find out if they're right for the job and if you see them as adding significant value then you can reward that by increasing their salary or paying bonuses. Start too high and where are the affordable carrots?!

And those of us who worked in engineering and got city and guilds and apprenticesghip indenturesthen and qualiifed as a craftsmen think differently.

Think differently to what, that education is actually a Good Idea?

Don't get what you're on about. Please explain.

Jeez, really?

Yep. There are a lot of lawyers who aren't earning megabucks.

And, of those that are earning piles of cash, there are (relatively) very few of them.

Elfin, peple who work in engineering think all this book learning, and interpretations and essay writing is just a load of words.

In engineering you buld something, and it must work, it cant be your interpretation of it may work, same with science you need to examine why it works or doesnt.

Yep. There are a lot of lawyers who aren't earning megabucks.

I went to uniservity to get an education, not simply to get a job paying £Xthousands of pounds a year.

I presume you would think differently if you were paying £9000 a year? The 5 year MEng degree I took would have resulted in an astounding £45k debt! Just another way that those over 40 have made their children pay for their lifestyle.

Leaving that aside, I agree that I went to uni (paying 'only' £1200 a year) to get more than just an engineering education (ooo err) but if I were doing it again I would be thinking very very carefully about my job prospects at the end of it.

Elfin, peple who work in engineering think all this book learning, and interpretations and essay writing is just a load of words.

Ah, like my neighbour who calls himself an 'engineer', but who has little more than a rudimentary grasp of engineering principles, mathematics, physics and geometry.

He's good at welding bits of metal together, making the odd raised bed out of old scaffold boards, but needed someone else to work out the angles for the corner brackets they had to have made.

Oh, and who said 'no problem, I can just weld that up for you', when my Dynatech frame came apart. I tried to explain that it was a titanium tube into a cromoly lug, but he simply said 'So? It's still steel, innit?' 🙄

And then there's people like my uncle who's worked for NASA, the ESA amongst other major organisations, who's had to read a shed load of books in order to do his job....

Engineer should be a protected term. I.e. you're not an engineer unless you have at least a degree in the subject and an affiliation to a professional organisation.

Ah, like my neighbour who calls himself an 'engineer', but who has little more than a rudimentary grasp of engineering principles, mathematics, physics and geometry

A handy neighbour to have then.:-)

Engineer should be a protected term. I.e. you're not an engineer unless you have at least a degree in the subject and an affiliation to a professional organisation.

don simon- ex sales engineer.
[img] http://www.smileys4me.com/getsmiley.php?show=1863 [/img]

Not really; he's got me to make him a cabinet, cos he 'cant get his head round all the numbers and stuff'.

Not an engineer then. He's a technician - nothing wrong with that either.

an affiliation to a professional organisation

The job is part funded under an EC graduate placement scheme. It's part funded for 14 weeks and then they are all ours 🙂

Just a thought are so many peoples lives so unfulfilled that they are complaining about a job they wouldn't even apply for?

Fred - for £45k, I'd rather she went travelling the world for a couple of years. Far more educational and rewarding than spending 5 years getting shitfaced, smoking weed and attending dubious parties.

I'd rather she went travelling the world for a couple of years. Far more educational and rewarding than spending 5 years getting shitfaced, smoking weed and attending dubious parties.

Cos that would only be 2 years spent getting shitfaced, smoking weed and attending dubious parties?

Why is a degree required? I can't believe people will put themselves through uni for 3/4/5 years and then take that salary - it's derisory.

Because just by getting a degree you do not become entitled to anything.

You make yourself more appealing to some employers, and you learn some stuff, but it does not entitle you to anything.

To say that salary is derisory is more insulting to all the intelligent hard working people without degrees. Do you think they deserve less because they don't have the paper work?

*Yes I have a degree, I still think I should be evaluated and employed on my demonstrable experience and skills and do not think I should be paid more for having a degree, it's just a bit of evidence that I can learn and apply myself.

**Masters in Physics if you must know, and no, I don't work in and industry where I can make use of it.

I'd rather she went travelling the world for a couple of years. Far more educational and rewarding than spending 5 years getting shitfaced, smoking weed and attending dubious parties.

Cos that would only be 2 years spent getting shitfaced, smoking weed and attending dubious parties?

😆

STR; without your household income (that you are so often keen to tell us about), I would've thought that you could now be putting money aside for when your daughter is old enough to make her own decision. That way, she won't be saddled with such debt.

Your view of what a university education is actually really like is ignorant and narrow minded. But then, you've never bin, so how would you know what it's actually about? Far better, to form your own misconceptions based on misinformation and prejudice, eh?

Education can of course be found in many forms, and in many places. Maybe travelling for two years would be better for her personally, than 3-5 years in uni. But how do you know this?

Better to at least allow her the opportunity and luxury of choice, eh, than making up her mind for her already based on your own narrow view.

Professional organisations are generally absolute rackets.

I agree but in the absence of a better solution, if you were looking to differentiate between people that fix things and people that do engineering it would be a good place to start.

Oh ffs, give over Fred. Did you not bother reading my first post "unless of course she really wants to go". Your endless search for an argument is getting a bit bloody boring now, grow up.

I think most art&design grads would be happy with that salary - I graduate in May and I feel rather underprepared for the 'real world', so I think the opportunity and experience offered by such a job would be worth it and then some. If I wasn't still finishing Uni I'd be applying straight away

Rather depressed by this thread now! (but at least I haven't paid 9,000 a year for the privilege of earning peanuts)

Personally it's quite refreshing to see complaints about a wage being too low.

Far more educational and rewarding than spending 5 years getting shitfaced, smoking weed and attending dubious parties.

That's exactly what I spent [b]all[/b] my time doing on my engineering degree - anybody would have thought you were there.

Can we have the student loans debate again please? The one where we point out that if you are on a low wage, "paying" £9k a year is kind of irrelevant.

Did you not bother reading my first post "unless of course she really wants to go"

Yeah I did, but I also read this:

I will be actively discouraging my daughter to go to Uni

So, quite contradictory then, and it seems you're more intent on foisting your prejudices onto your daughter, than you are in allowing her to grow up to be the person she wants to be herself. As though you'd prefer to mould her in your own image.

Your endless search for an argument is getting a bit bloody boring now, grow up.

I'm merely challenging what I consider to be a very ignorant and negative attitude towards university education. It's a [b]public[/b] forum. I'm quite mature enough I think to be able to engage in intelligent discussion with others. 🙂

You have no experience of a university education, yet you'd 'actively discourage' your own child from exploring an avenue you yourself have not even bin down?

Why?

Ewan, your other differentiator was that engineers should have a degree though. Plenty of fantastic engineers don't.

A few yrs ago that sort of money would have allowed you to buy a small house in Tod and not live too badly. Unfortunately house prices and rents have gone through the roof.

however, i'm once again struck by how out of touch the STW 'intelligentsia' actually are, £15'000 is a livable wage for many people at the moment.

I could reply Fred, but I really can't be arsed with you today.

Actively discouraging ..... Great role model

So is your daughter going to be an electrician too ?

I'd actually be very interested in your views, as they echo those of the parents of various friends of mine who struggled to get themselves to university despite parental adversity. Then suffered a great deal of familial hostility, in some cases to the point of having to lose contact with those they loved.

I find it depressing that people can be so ideologically opposed to something they themselves have no experience of.

Ewan, your other differentiator was that engineers should have a degree though. Plenty of fantastic engineers don't.

Really? I've come across a few who didn't go to uni, but generally they've all got degrees - where else do you get that level of knowledge? I certainly couldn't do certain aspects of my job without making use of stuff I learnt doing my degree.

FWIW I've also interviewed graduates who appear to have already forgotten everything they learnt on their degree.

Muddydwarf i dont doubt 15,600 to be a livable wage

2 years ago i worked in alpine bikes for 11k a year and my mrs was doing a pgde at the uni Renting a flat in aberdeen

I didnt think times were too tough tbh ... You could never buy a house on it but buying a house isnt a god given right

Cut your cloth to suit your means not your wants !

What is an engineer though - the guy who sits behind the desk all day designing the equipment - but ime doesnt know how to put it together . The guy who can take a drawing and turn it into reality ? The guy who can put a system of ready designed parts together to solve a problem ?

Or simply the guy who given a problem can supply a safe , long term solution to fit the criteria and regulations ?

Er, i DID buy a house on a similar wage!

Fair enough, it was before prices went stupid and the house was only £33'000 (now priced at 3 times that) but it was a viable option - i'm still here after all.
My Mortgage is paid weekly and is £35 per week 🙂

A refuse engineer can empty the bins.

Engineering ain't all that 🙂

What is an engineer though - the guy who sits behind the desk all day designing the equipment - but ime doesnt know how to put it together . The guy who can take a drawing and turn it into reality ? The guy who can put a system of ready designed parts together to solve a problem ?

Or simply the guy who given a problem can supply a safe , long term solution to fit the criteria and regulations ?

Combination of the first and last. The second is a technician.

RichPenny - I've come across a few who I would say were genuine 'engineers' (i.e. understood the physics and materials science behind what they were doing) without an engineering degree, however they generally did have degrees in maths or physics.

Combination of the first and last. The second is a technician

however we are digressing.....

Has anyone applied?

FWIW I've also interviewed graduates who appear to have already forgotten everything they learnt on their degree.

What is an engineer though - blah blah blah

wel that's obvious innit..!

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Some snowy loveless, Happy xmas all 🙂

What is an engineer though - the guy who sits behind the desk all day designing the equipment - but ime doesnt know how to put it together . The guy who can take a drawing and turn it into reality ? The guy who can put a system of ready designed parts together to solve a problem ?

Or simply the guy who given a problem can supply a safe , long term solution to fit the criteria and regulations ?

Hmm, it's an interesting one. I understand an 'engineer' to be someone to come up with a safe, working solution to a particular problem I spose.

In my neighbour's case, not knowing that you can't weld titanium to a steel alloy, and not even knowing that titanium is in fact a completely different metal to steel, is something that would negate his claims to be an 'engineer'.

He was in fact a Boilermaker/Welder. I think the term 'engineer' sounds more 'important', hence his use of it. An 'engineer' is a more prestigious role than a 'mere' welder.

But if I had an 'engineering' problem I needed solving, he'd not be someone I'd go to, as he does not in any way have the skills and knowledge required. Hence, he's not an 'engineer'.

But maybe his definition is one that's outdated, and that the current definition involves more extensive knowledge than what was required previously. I dunno.

I went to uni, got a degree, and I'll be actively discouraging my kids from doing the same until they've got a trade under their belt.

Now thats a good idea brucewee

I went to uni, got a degree, and I'll be actively discouraging my kids from doing the same until they've got a trade under their belt.

AWESOME

Btw muddy - was that 2 years ago ? The mere fact you mention it was before prices went mental suggests maybe 10/20 years ago maybe

Horses for courses when it comes to education. For some perspective I spent 4 years as an undergrad in medical school, 3 years at Uni for Biomedical science degree, 4 years in Entry Medicine and MRCS and now at least 6 years before I can consult. I'm 30 and feel like I've just started out.

I haven't slept in 12 years.

What constitutes a 'trade' though? is not Graphic Design a 'trade'?

I certainly do think there ought to be more vocational training type stuff in schools; woodwork, metalwork, even stuff like needlework and that. Why not? They're all good skills.

There does seem to be too much emphasis on education for service industries. I wish I'd bin taught woodwork and that at school, as I'd possibly be a bit better developed in a field I'm blindly stumbling into at the moment.

Have to say though; the practical skills I've learnt I've pretty much taught myself, and for what I'm doing, that's fine. It's the actual design bit, the ability to come up with the ideas, that's where the education stuff is invaluable. The knowledge of different styles and forms of design are what give me what I'd consider my own 'edge'; what differentiates my work from that of others.

Truth is we don't make enough stuff ourselves anymore. All too automated and instantly disposable. So wasteful. 🙁

I haven't slept in 12 years.

That's probbly beacuse you've bin shit-faced on drugs and booze all the time though. 😉

Trail Rat - bought the house December 2000 so eleven yrs ago now. I certainly couldn't have bought a house on that wage now!

I do think some folk on here live in a bubble, i don't earn a lot - a pittance by some peoples claims on here - but i own my own home, have 5K worth of bikes in the kitchen, a few grand in the bank, can afford a couple of holidays a year (Ciclo Montana trip etc) and have no debts apart from my mortgage.

have 5K worth of bikes in the kitchen

You pauper! 😆

But maybe his definition is one that's outdated, and that the current definition involves more extensive knowledge than what was required previously.

No - being an engineer has always required you to know more than how to weld. As you identified, he calls himself that because it sounds more impressive. In the distant past, it didn't involve a degree, but still involved high levels of knowledge and skill (in the distant past you didn't need a degree to be a doctor either).

I would say a trade is something where there is a regulatory body that requires you to have done a certain number of courses and worked a certain number of hours before you can be called a time served whatever.

For example, mechanics, aircraft techs, electricians, plumbers, NDT techs, etc.

Problem is that there just aren't that many apprenticeships available. If you happen to have the grades to go to uni then it almost makes it more difficult to get one which is a real shame.

i don't earn a lot - a pittance by some peoples claims on here - but i own my own home, [b]have 5K worth of bikes in the kitchen[/b],

i don't earn a lot - a pittance by some peoples claims on here - but i own my own home, have 5K worth of bikes in the kitchen,

If you earned a decent wage, you'd be able to keep the 5k of bikes in a specially designed storage facility.

DS - the silly thing is, i have HUGE garage, i just don't feel they are secure in there! Mind you, in the New Year i'm having one of those steel cycle security cabinets put into the garage.

That's probbly beacuse you've bin shit-faced on drugs and booze all the time though.

Absolutely. That's what I meant.

Fred - for £45k, I'd rather she went travelling the world for a couple of years. Far more educational and rewarding than spending 5 years getting shitfaced, smoking weed and attending dubious parties.

Being £45k in debt only matters if you're ever going to pay it back. I'd be very happy if someone would offer me a loan on the same terms.

Absolutely. That's what I meant.

😆

Excellent. Taxpayers' money not wasted after all, then?

tbh 15.6k in Tod is okay.. product only comes out once in a month of sundays, cheap as chips to live locally, shops and a lidl close by chuck in a morrisons ( no banana soreen though) cracking market clean swimming pool, nice established employer,
if i was starting out my hand would be up like a shot..

Excellent. Taxpayers' money not wasted after all, then?

If I only save one life.... Then it probably wasn't worth it to be honest.

Don't think the term 'Engineer' necessarily means you should be an ace in the workshop, although you'd hope an engineer would at least know what they were talking about. So I'd say Adrian Newey (for example) is an engineer but he wouldn't be the first person I'd ask to weld a bike frame up for me.

A foot in the door is a foot in the door, **** the salary, better than doing a degree then pushing trolleys around waitrose car park like a lot of graduates end up doing.

My first graduate job paid £18.5k, a pittance compared to the fee I was earning the partners, but it was valuable experience, after two years I was earning double, after a few more years it's now a lot more.

If I was to be picky I could have waited and ended up stuck in a dead end job in a call centre earning bugger all and moaning about it on the Internet like someone posted on here the other week after doing a computing degree and not managing to get a job.

It's a small fortune to pay for what they'll probably get, some halfwit out of Uni that can't spell will have little idea of the real world and its costs and deadlines.

If it were down south it would be an internship with folk queing up to pay for the experience, they're very generous imv.

We used to use students from the very best college in St Gallon Switzerland, they'd come over, work a year just for board and keep and we'd learn stacks from them. Their typography was streets ahead of anything we were into.

So for that job the queue should stretch all the way down here and the lucky applicant should be prepared to work their balls off - but they wont, they'll expect all the usual bullshit brit employees want and get that bit of lead on a string swinging..

Have to say I was amazed at how low that job was offering - our in house designed (similar skill set, but not junior) was on £45k, but that's Cambridge wages for you...

As for University, I only went as I knew I had to get a degree to get the sort of job I wanted, it was a ticket you had to have to become an Engineer. NB My starting salary after graduating was £14,500 (1991).

Don't think the term 'Engineer' necessarily means you should be an ace in the workshop, although you'd hope an engineer would at least know what they were talking about.

If they're a fully trained engineer (as required to be chartered) they should have spent some time in a workshop, so know which end of a welding torch to hold, how to use machine tools etc. I had 3 months of workshop practice as part of my training (though I wouldn't be the first person I'd ask to weld up a bike frame 😉 ). This is a point folks seem to miss when they grumble about graduate engineers with no practical skills (that will be the ones not yet fully trained - though I did my workshop skills straight out of school before uni).

that nearly as much as me working in engineering for 20yrs the moneys shite thats why they cant make many to take it up

You know what you get if you pay your designer £15.6k per year? Dirt magazine.

I have always thought some people have that knack some don't

I had 3 months of workshop practice as part of my training

Blimey, i spent 4 years turning, milling, grinding and forming all manner of bits for my tutors steam traction engine!!

yeah the majority of the engineers i work with on a daily basis are mostly great theoretical engineers and useless in practical engineering applications, to the point where they can't assemble their own hardware :S

i'm actually an industrial designer, saw the add for the designer job, and as soon as i saw the salary closed the window. That's about 13k below what i was earning before i went back to finish my masters, and even then i was on an agency and not earning the normal amount.

Having said that, northern salary is generally lower than the south, and it's a graphic design position.

I asked the question as my role is operations engineer

Its a mix of technical support , running equipment offshore when we are short of folk/ i want extra money , building and testing new equipment and being the field focal point for engineering to bounce ideas off - i do have input into the design work of componants but only as much as discussing i dont actually have to do the design work or the calcs

My engineering comes when creating proceedures for the new equipment to be run through maths , theory ,proven techniques and testing.

Am i an engineer - imeche seems to think so but i have not really engineered anything ... Some would argue im a glorified technician with a degree. Its a battlei have with my self on a monthly basis ........

Oh and pinches i know that feeling - some of our lot didnt know one end of a pipe wrench from another when i had them in the workshop.