[Closed] STW 2014/15 Rugby Thread

Getting beaten by the best part of 20 points [i]should[/i] be embarrassing, brave performance or not. The day Wales start accepting nothing but a victory might be the day they end 60+ years of choking against the ABs.

Ford has to start next week. Very poor overall. Well done Ireland.

Doof_doof. Chocking is whenbyou are the better side and lose. Wales had 15 player that could match the All Blacks. When Dane Coles tired Kevin Mealamu came on wales bough on Scot Baldwin, when Kaino tired Liam Messam came on Wales bought on an ineffective Tipuric and shunted the outstanding Warburton to 6 where he was much quieter. Thats the difference wales had 15 good players NZ had 23 outstanding ones.

The stats at HT were an obvious indicator of the final result. Wales had to (and did) work much, much harder to simply stay with the ABs. To their credit they did. But rugby is an 80 minute game. And that is why the AB are the best in the world at the moment. The other side has to work so much harder that the ABs will always have the superiority and mental and physical strength at the end - and as others have said a much better squad. Bringing on the B team players at the seemingly standard 60m doesn't win matched, more often than bit it simply disturbs the rhythm etc.

Having said that these matches suggest that we should be on for a humdinger of a 6N. Even Scotland are upping their game. Ireland will have a lot of confidence and Wales and England just need to rid themselves of this self-imposed angst and simple play as they can do. Bring it on.

Good news is that the AB are peaking too early again!!!!!

The worrying thing is, the AB's haven't played all that well for this series. At least England have come out top of the home nations against them. [/troll]

Regardless of that, love this image and what it represents to our sport:

[img] [/img]

England pushed the all blacks because their bench isnt a huge drop off in quality like the welsh one is. Also the welsh lock pairing whilst being great at tackling rucking and general work rate are lacking at the lineout. Add Richie Grey or Lawes to that welsh team it would make a massive difference. Shame Ian Evans pissed off to Bristol as he's Wales only good middle of the lineout jumper. Missing Ken Owens from the bench is a big loss too as Hibbards mad man act only lasts 50 mins.
Glad to see Lydiate playing well again, although SBW did kind of play to his and Roberts strengths. Warburton has been outstanding in defeat v Aus and NZ, still rather have AW Jones as captain though.

While we're still on this weekend's details, just wtf were England doing playing in red? More marketing bullshit, clearly. Let's leave that to soccer, shall we?

Hopefully the world cup group will be brilliant. If wales are picking from a fully fit squad they will really scare england who as these autumn tests show have a very over optimistic support/press who put the team under pressure.
Ireland look red hot 6 nations favs atvthe moment a lot of good players and a very good coach.

Question for our resident ref. In the scotland game if a player knocked on and his team mate picked it up in front it was a pen. In the wales game it was a scrum. Who is correct? And do the refs tell the players beforehand or does it depend on how the ref feels that day? It could be an important decision by a player. When nz did it about 5 mins into the game you could hear Warbs ask for a pen and Barnes (who I thought was very good) responded no we'll take a scrum. I reckon Sam was correct.

The worrying thing is, the AB's haven't played all that well for this series. At least England have come out top of the home nations against them. [/troll]

Only cause we didn't play them. NZ bosses reckoned it was too close last year 😀

How did the other home nations do against the big 3?

Seriously I'm really happy with where are at currently under Schmidt. You can see the development in our game and the structures he has put in place. We still have around 10 players to return from injury so it bodes well. We also have something you Welsh and English boys would love, a quality half back pairing. The best around currently.

Still work to be done on our set piece but that will improve.

AA I always thought that was a pen

If wales are picking from a fully fit squad they will really scare england who as these autumn tests show have a very over optimistic support/press who put the team under pressure.

It was ever thus. Wales always do this looking shite in the autumn just so they can come back with vim and vigour in spring. I reckon Gatland does it on purpose..
Lancaster could earn a thing or two from him.

toys I think you are giving us too much credit 😆

Another couple for our Resident Ref.

England game. Line out prior to Brown's try at 45 minutes. England pack bind up for a maul but Samoa do not engage. Ball carrier is at the back. Is that not obstruction by England?

The "high" tackle that resulted in a yellow card. The tacklers arms were not around the neck or head, or wrapped over a shoulder. Why is that a high tackle? I heard Woodwood's explanation but his opinion is even more one eyed than Andy Nichol's.

While we are asking questions...

In Wales v nz game nz had advantage and kicked the ball welsh player caught it so they came back for a pen. Then later Wales were playing the advantage kicked nz cathch and ref says advantage is over and nz play on.

Does it vary depending on what the pen/advantage is for?

Knock on advantages over after any kick it seems. Pen advantages only after a gainline break.

Ben Youngs dropped. Wow, what exactly did he do wrong?

Anyone else get the impression that the england camp is not a happy one?

Could be just wishfull thinking 😆

Ben Youngs dropped. Wow, what exactly did he do wrong?

Tight-head props
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Back rows
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, captain)
Thomas Waldrom (Exeter Chiefs)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Outside backs
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Back threes
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Semesa Rokoguduni (Bath Rugby)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

I wonder what the NZ result will do to Wales. Hard to imagine their confidence about being able to close out against a top side will have been done any favours. I was cheering for them to get the win but the line out failed at a crucial time and as others have posted the bench isn't strong and at the end they where out of their feet as the ABs took it up a notch.

Didn't watch England as had other plans, glad Ford seems to have done well. He must must start against Australia !

With Hibbard out for the SA match Baldwin best be practising his lineout chucking this week.

What makes you think BY has been dropped?

It was in the Sky Sports headline today along with Waldron's call up, but I see its been amended now.

Tigers have confirmed the signing of Aaron Mauger as head coach next season! Amazing signing. God knows we need someone to tell the backs how to play again.

BTW a colleague just got two tickets for Wales/Australia RWC group match as they came up on sale today for those that missed out first time

didn't watch England as had other plans,

You were lucky. They were terrible. Nearly 20pts up with half an hour to go and no more scores? If they play the first 15 minutes against the Aussies as they did on Saturday they'll have already lost the match.

Mike Brown appears to have attended the Owen Farrell school of charm and graduated [I]magna cum laude[/I] plus his ability to drop a pass in a try scoring position is improving steadily.

How on earth did Scotland get Vern Cotter? I know it's early days but he could be the first coach in recent memory who's reputation might be enhanced by coaching Scotland.

Why didn't England get him???

Tigers have confirmed the signing of Aaron Mauger as head coach next season!

his ability to drop a pass in a try scoring position is improving steadily.

I have no idea why, but the form of far too many players is on the floor. Care lacks his usual edge, Brown is a shadow of himself, the normally dependent Wood is a liability, Billy V has gone missing and the less said about Farrell the better!

Tigers have confirmed the signing of Aaron Mauger as head coach next season! Amazing signing. God knows we need someone to tell the backs how to play again.

That's the best bit of news I've seen from Leicester in a long time!

Is that the end of cockers then?

I don't think so, Cockers is the DoR, and Mauger would replace Matt O'Conner who went to coach Leinster. Mauger was bloody excellent for Leicester when himself and Murphy were taking care of coaching the backs. Crusaders don't look too shabby either!

Lancaster covers both briefs, revealing recently that he spends 40 per cent of his time on media and commercial duties, another 40 per cent on other management matters, and 20 per cent on coaching itself.

Mentioned in a telegraph article. Think how good we'd be if it was 100%! 😯

The "high" tackle that resulted in a yellow card. The tacklers arms were not around the neck or head, or wrapped over a shoulder. Why is that a high tackle? I heard Woodwood's explanation but his opinion is even more one eyed than Andy Nichol's.

Don't know what the TV coverage said but it was called as 'dangerous play' which has a wide definition these days. He did go to the video ref for confirmation before showing the card. The tackle itself was heard from some distance away too. 😯

[url= http://www.irbplayerwelfare.com/?documentid=63 ]Rule 10.4[/url]

It was high because his shoulder hit Fords chin and he made no attempt to wrap his arms around him.

Good news for England fans everywhere, Farrell has been benched in favour of Ford & 36. I have long waited for this day. (Well it would be better if he had been sent home but it is a start.)

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/nov/24/owen-farrell-dropped-england-billy-twelvetrees-george-ford-rugby

Whoop! Whoop!

Yay.....36 is just what we need! Jebus!

Its not quite deck chairs and Titanic as they are all good players but I dont see any of them taking England to the next level. What did that big fast centre from Northampton do to get dropped, him at 13 Barritt at 12 and healing vibes/prayers to Tuilagi would be my thoughts. Seems odd that Eastmond showed some nice touches was given a couple of games and then sent packing. It seems to be an england problem that they have too many good players and cannot decide on their best ones, although the pack has a nice settled strong look.

Yay.....36 is just what we need! Jebus!

Australia will be without their injured centre Tevita Kuridrani

Excellent news and long overdue.

@aa Tuilagi will be back, he's a threat to any team.

What did that big fast centre from Northampton do to get dropped,

Hand injury - but he's available now so I'm not sure why Lancaster isn't playing him as this is a "must win" game. He's big, he's fast and he scores - ??

What did that big fast centre from Northampton do to get dropped, him at 13 Barritt at 12

Eastmond showed some nice touches was given a couple of games and then sent packing.

Wasn't it concussion? edit: Turns out it's not, was in the training camp.

Interestingly from a Tigers perspective, 12T was sold on from Leicester as he was never going to get game time against Flood and Ford. Then Ford moved on from Leicester while Flood went to France and suddenly we see what could have been an all leicester 9,10, 12 & 13 (if Tuilagi was fit), yet Leicester couldn't conjour up some good attacking back play if they were playing against the local under 5's tag rugby team!

Except that Burrel is a 12 and Barritt is a 13

Funny because Barritt has played with Tuilagi before is Tuilagi a 12? and Burrel played at 13 last six nations. Neither look especially wedded to either 12 or 13 to me

Eastmond played for Bath last sat, maybe he wanted to play outside the great Gav instead.

Burrell is a 12 but has played 13 for England in the past. I think the fear with Burrell is that he doesn't have much of a kicking game which leaves you exposed if the 10 is at the bottom of a ruck. This is the reason for persisting with Twelvetrees as he is a big lad who can also kick, a perfect combo for a 12 in theory at least.

Personally, I think if you play Youngs at 9 and Brown or Alex Goode at 15 you have enough kicking cover to warrant Burrell at 12 but Lancaster clearly knows more than I. I'd also stop planning on Tuilangi coming back, he spends far too much time injured to build a team around, England have to think beyond him for the moment.

Except that Burrel is a 12 and Barritt is a 13

I'd still rather see Burrell at 12 and Tuilagi at 13 as a first choice partnership, the likes of 36 or Barritt warming the bench would be bloody good cover.

Re:Aaron Mauger at Tigers - As tinybits said, Cockers will stay on as DOR and Mauger will be head coach as we've never replaced Matt O'connor since he left for Leinster. Geordan Murphy will stay on as backs coach as well.

Re:Aaron Mauger at Tigers - As tinybits said, Cockers will stay on as DOR and Mauger will be head coach as we've never replaced Matt O'connor since he left for Leinster. Geordan Murphy will stay on as backs coach as well.

Manu, Burrell, Slade, Joseph, Barritt, maybe Eastmond. We need to experiment with those.

Agreed on the Slade front. Looks very good each time I see him play for Exeter, reminds me of a Will Greenwood, only with a bit of pace!

I'd also stop planning on Tuilangi coming back, he spends far too much time injured to build a team around,

I know, but I've loved watching the Tuilagis play since Freddy came to play for Leicester probably 13 years ago. When his brothers turned up, Henry, Alex, Manu and Andy turned up, it's a freak of a family (in a very good way). Understand there's another generation coming through as well now!

Manu, Burrell, Slade, Joseph, Barritt, maybe Eastmond. We need to experiment with those.

I would suggest making a bloody decision and going with it.

I would suggest making a bloody decision and going with it.

I think you hit the nail on the head there! That's the one thing that hasn't been done.

SCW's take on England selection:

My England team for Saturday that I would have developed based on those fit to play: Watson; May, Burrell, Slade, Wade; Cipriani, Youngs; Marler, Hartley, Wilson; Lawes, Attwood; Robshaw, Haskell, Armitage.

I would suggest making a bloody decision and going with it.

Does SCW have any credibility left? I take it thats daily mail clickbait?

My England team for Saturday that I would have developed based on those fit to play: Watson; May, Burrell, Slade, Wade; Cipriani, Youngs; Marler, Hartley, Wilson; Lawes, Attwood; Robshaw, Haskell, Armitage

I don't think he's a million miles off there you know. I'd play Webber over Hartley at the moment but that's a marginal call. I'd also pick Morgan over Armitage but again, that is marginal.

It's bold, but I very much doubt that he'd have the balls to select that side against aus if he were the current manager. The minute fatty armitage gets in the squad, England players would be scampering to France. I hope it doesn't happen.

Does SCW have any credibility left?

Not a lot IMO but that looks like a decent lineup and it's picked as if it had been developed up to this point rather than thrown together suddenly.

I was thinking about the disastrous 2005 Lions Tour and despite all the terrible mistakes we'd still have got hammered with Geech in charge of all the right players. That NZ team was unstoppable and Dan Carter emerged as a true world class player.

Contrast to 2013 when a well selected, coached and managed squad faced an Australia team in total disarray and yet only won the series by virtue of a slip of a non-kicking foot.

Can't see it happening (Armitage).
If he was gonna try him, he'd be in the squad by now.
Year out from WC is fine for a bit of experimenting. These games are for finding out about players and what they can offer for next year. And more important, who's not quite up to it.
I see it as good management to be trying the combos they are, and testing a few players out of position for cover in future 23s. All this "Must Win" nonsense is just media hype. As long as they don't get completely spanked, and they find out a bit about they're oppo's, then there's no disaster. But I also think with direct WC group oppos, there's a bit of kidology going on too, holding something back for next year. (Personally, I'm convinced that's what's happening with Burrell - IMO no way they'll play in the WC without either him or Manu at 13 'cos he already knows it works)
ABs have been doing it all autumn - back up 10s playing 14 and 15, 12s and 13s swapped, finding who offers best option for next year. There's injuries involved too, but they won the last match without Carter, Nonu, Fekitoa, Jane, and Dagg.

Carter was pants v scotland, Nonu is injured, Fekitoa not as good as Smith, Jane is broken and other Smith playing better than Dagg. NZ know there first 15 though and its a settled team unlike england who dont have a settled team less than a year out from the world cup. Its a worry, although not for me. England dont need to develop back up they need to develop a pattern in the backs, that doesnt come from changing players like I change my pants.

that doesnt come from changing players like I change my pants.

Ok so not that often just once in autumn and spring, not weekely I'm not that posh!

@loum I'm not so sure a year out from the world cup is the time for experimenting. Most of your starting XV should be inked in with space for injury swaps and late bolters.

The problem is, England don't seem to know how they're going to play so it's impossible to determine who is going to play.

The ABs have system of play and Super Rugby sides play a similar way so players can slot in easily.

England should aim for a 6N win because they CANNOT win the RWC. Frankly the 6N looks beyond them too.

Can't really see what the questions over style of play are. If they're to get out of that group, then they'll play the "England" way. They need to beat Oz and/or Wales. They won't be looking for an open game.
They'll try to dominate up front. Rely on set pieces, kick territory, maul, big carriers at lock and 8. Deny ball to the oppo's backs, grind the oppo's pack out of the game. Back's will be picked for their defense at least as much as their attack - Farrell and Barrit will be there. And one of Manu or Burrell at 13 if fit.

It won't be pretty, but it is the way they know to beat the teams they need to.

Any team can win the RWC. Nonsense to suggest otherwise, especially on the the top 5 teams and on home soil.

I'm going to go on record and state Wales cant win the world cup. Or scotland.

Havent looked at the draw but would expect england to have to beat at least two of Aus, SA and NZ, cant see it happening.

I'm going to go on record and state Wales cant win the world cup. Or scotland.

Wales can beat england at twickers or aus then at least one of SA or NZ...yeah right

tbh I always thought this was the lucky draw for wales. If they are going to raise their game it will be against us. Then they might get a head of steam and go and do it.

Have you seen pool c? Or D beating either ireland or france would be easier or pool b. Beat SA Samoa or scotland

😀

@Loum the style of play you suggest will beat most 6N teams most of the time but it's just been proved it can't beat NZ or SA.
To beat those sides you need to score more tries and that's not going to happen.
The aim is winning the RWC not just getting out of the group and to do that you're probably gonna have to beat one or both of the top 2.

http://www.bloodandmud.com/2014/11/shitgood-ratings-autumn-internationals-week-three.html

Some rude words but mostly sfw. Quite funny view on Brad Barrit and the welsh lineout.

Wales should have won the last world cup, they had a fantastic team and NZ where near paralyzed by nerves. If the ref had done a remotely decent job France would have won the final with two or three clear penalties not awarded in the closing minutes, France where a team who struggled to beat 14 man Wales.

Wales cannot win the 2015 RWC

@Loum the style of play you suggest will beat most 6N teams most of the time but it's just been proved it can't beat NZ or SA.

Wales lost to SA in the opening game, then lost to aus in the first place. No way should they have or would have beat NZ. Massive historical revisionism. Wales havent beaten , sa or nz for almost 15 years aus for about 8 years,

Jambalaya, I agree to some degree but along with disciplined play and good kicking you need to have the ability to take the opportunities when they're presented. No-one has beaten NZ since the last RWC without scoring a few tries.

England can be disciplined but good kicking/chasing and taking try scoring chances are not currently skills they have.

Wales record in 2011 RWC read: Lost to SA, beat Ireland , lost to France, lost to Australia. Not exactly world beating stuff. Fair enough, the unfair red card didn't help but France were woeful in the semi.

We'll never know what might have transpired in the final between NZ and Wales. My own hunch is Wales would've tried to play rugby and NZ, free of the terrible notion of losing to france, would have done the same and scored 50 points.

the unfair red card didn't help

the red card was fair, it was all the other refs not being fair and giving yellows for similar tackles that was unfair.

Personally I really don't think he should have been sent off as the ref had the option to work up or down to/from a red card or however it was worded. Take your point about consistency.

No matter. It's history now. I think SW took it like a true gentlemen and I'll always admire him for that.

I thought the red card was very harsh, a slight lapse from Sam in letting him go but no comparison to the spear tackle on BOD for example as per @aa's post.

@namaste - Even England score enough tries to beat NZ, we've beaten them or run them close the last 5 games. We lost the last one due to a dropped try scoring pass and losing our way/dire kicking from 9 & 10.

More RWC tickets on sale today, colleague got what should be a good QF in Cardiff Argentina vs Ireland or France.

@sputnik - those where the days when the ABs where mostly from NZ rather than the Pacific Islands

I remember when england were mostly english as well 😉

South Africa: Willie le Roux, Cornal Hendricks, Jan Serfontein, Jean de Villiers (captain), Lwazi Mvovo, Pat Lambie, Cobus Reinach; Tendai Mtawarira, Bismarck du Plessis, Coenie Oosthuizen, Eben Etzebeth, Victor Matfield (vice-captain), Marcell Coetzee, Teboho "Oupa" Mohoje, Duane Vermeulen
Replacements: Adriaan Strauss, Trevor Nyakane, Julian Redelinghuys, Lood de Jager, Nizaam Carr, Francois Hougaard, Handré Pollard, Damian de Allende

jambalaya - New Zealand IS a Pacific Island. What is your point aside from casual racism ?

@Jambalaya yeah we have scored a few tries against NZ but the trouble is - they've scored a few more!

In the last 5 tests, we played well in the autumn 2013 game and should have won the first test in the summer. The worrying thing is, we've been well beaten in the last three which indicates no improvement on England's part coupled with NZ figuring out how to exploit our weaknesses.

The one point second test loss in the summer concealed the fact that we were totally blown away during a 20 minute purple patch for the ABs and scored two late tries when we were 15pts adrift. We were thrashed in the third test and then this autumn, once again, a late score masked the fact that NZ were 10pts better.

England have not progressed one iota since SL's honeymoon period ended. Had he dispensed with OF and given Ford and Cipriani a few more run outs then something better might have developed by now. It's a lot to expect Ford to suddenly galvanize a back division which contains an outside centre thus described by [i]bloodandmud:[/i]

Brad Barritt - For the computer, this man in an international shirt has a low acceptance tolerance. Injuries and the "defensive" argument only go so far when the bottom line is he is not talented enough to play international rugby. Commentators wax about his tackling, as if making tackles is a skill of Phil Bennett sidestep proportions (hint: it isn't), but what is more important to point out is that his attacking has as much incision and threat as a dundee cake rolled down a disabled access ramp.

Is jambalaya saying that racism?