[Closed] STUPID RULES at your workplace for the terminally thick

So all of those 600 falls down stairs will have been work related and will therefore exclude the (presumably many more) falls down stairs outside of work.

How many were caused by not holding onto the handrail?

The previous occupants of my workshop used it as a venue for mud wrestling and lady fighting. There were two signs high up on the wall when I moved in and I've kept them.
One says ' Make your slaps count' the other is ' Never turn your back on your opponent'.

I forget about them and sometimes see customers gazing at them wondering what they have to do with the design and manafacture of furniture.

Is there a subset of statistics to show how many of those stairs related injuries occurred whilst holding the handrail? That would then enable us to better judge whether it's a silly rule or not. I've witnessed people falling whilst holding on to one. That's why I always slide down them. Avoid using the stairs entirely 😉

Edit - beaten to it by Drac

Nick - one that is not faced and dealt with safely by virtually everyone every day. Do you put in control measures for walking along a corridor? so why do it for stairs [i]where there is no other factor involved[/i]

Read my post and the one above it to try to understand why putting in place control measures for imaginary or petty hazards actually reduces safety by bringing the systems into disrepute

Did you read billytinkle's post a few above this?

Firstly the 100,000 to 500 riddor stat indicats that most non domestic falls are not in the workplace.

2ndly as TJ stated the suitable control measure is often related to the architecture of the building not the behaviour. Stair design, lighting etc. Lobbing a user related control measure in is just blame passing.

So is it stupid to remind people to use the handrail?

Or is it just stupid to use the handrail?

If you take the signs away should you take the handrails away too?

Don't agree. It is cost free in so much as it costs nothing to implement and very little to enforce. What it costs is goodwill and further education on more important issues. The overall attitude to H&S is pretty good at the centre in question but the rule is considered petty and 'big brother' like by the majority of employees. A feeling of being treated like children. This then spills over into a general scepticism of most other edicts that come out of 'rules central'. It also empowers the wrong kind of people who get off on reporting others.

From experience the majority of people in large organisations appear to behave like children a lot of the time. I'm sure the figures above on fatality rates are not a coincidence with the stronger H&S rules.

On reporting I've worked in a culture where challenging of anyone is actively encouraged to the level where the new apprentice should be comfortable challenging the MD. If your outside of the rules,not holding the hand rail, having a meeting on the stairs or walking outside of the pedestrian areas then you were not paying attention and not being safe. No clever come backs, no there was nothing coming. Learn from it.

A good H&S Department (and everyone there) will be looking at all things, the big hitters may be the once in a 10000 occurrence, stairs are used every day by most people so the usage hrs is massive.

Stairs are not a hazard that is unusual or needs to be controlled unless you have to carry stuff up and down them, they are steep and awkward or there are other factors at play such as noise, fatigue, bad lighting etc

How many were caused by not holding onto the handrail?

How about just leave it up to the individual to decided their own handrail related fate?

It's second nature now, I laughed when told in '99 out H&S guy felt out of place in a large airport where the stairs were so wide there were no hand rails, feels the same now.

And yet you go mountain biking. You must literally be crying inside on every pedal stroke. How do you square the risk in your head of going for a bike ride if you can't walk up a set of stairs in your own time without feeling weirded out by not having a rail to cling to?

How many were prevented by holding the hand rails? I certainly know of a lot of times a foot has slipped etc. and handrails have done their job.

I certainly know of many that haven't. The point being as you've also demonstrated is that those figures show reported accidents not the cause or prevented ones.

Nick - one that is not faced and dealt with safely by virtually everyone every day. Do you put in control measures for walking along a corridor? so why do it for stairs where there is no other factor involved

funkmasterp - Member
How about just leave it up to the individual to decided their own handrail related fate?

And yet you go mountain biking. You must literally be crying inside on every pedal stroke. How do you square the risk in your head of going for a bike ride if you can't walk up a set of stairs in your own time without feeling weirded out by not having a rail to cling to?

It's amazing how many people trip slip and fall on them isn't it.

Yeah but [i]they [/i]are all idiots though, they probably couldn't even read the sign. They're not like [i]us[/i] - we've got 'Common Sense'. Sometimes our Common Sense is actually 'Commonly Held Misconceptions' - but we still feel good about it.

And yet you go mountain biking

Woah! Steady on. There's no need to begin accusing people of actually riding their bikes. That's a low blow

But by putting in control measures that are widely ignored like in my workplace the handrails thing you undermine the whole culture of H&S in the workplace making it easier for staff to ignore much more important control measures

for sure if you have to carry things or there are other aspects that increase the hazard of the stairs then control measures are needed

I also understand risk assessment, control measures and so on - but I also understand the human factor in this.

Quite easily, a hand rial is the safest way to climb stairs, I don't want to hurt or injure myself at work, I'm also happy not to get fired or escorted off site for disregarding H&S - it happens with plenty of serious employers.

I (and you) are not talking about work now. You said you H&S felt out of place at a large airport and you now do too. The safest way to get your self and mountain bike up or down a hill is to get off and push.

And yet you go mountain biking

Only if you got home from work in one piece. Half a million new cases of work related injury and ill health tends to curtail people's hobbies a bit. 🙂

most non domestic falls are not in the workplace

and at home it;s great not to slip on the stairs, and in airports. I choose my level of risk on the bike. It's not that hard to understand is it?

The majority of this is about work, and how in many cases the reinforcement of certain things makes them the normal occurrence, hence finding a set of stairs with no hand rail is now a very uncommon occurrence and something that does not feel natural. When climbing stairs my hand move to the hand rail. It's second nature.

Given the UK have a very good safety record (still not zero which should always be the target) something is working.

most ridiculous i have ever come across was on a staircase, about 8foot wide. maintain three points of contact at all times.

So where are they?

Public spaces. Last time I looked 'domestic' was a surprisingly tight term. Communal spaces in blocks of flats were not deemed as domestic for example.

Not a sign, but at a health and safety induction at a new job I was told to always keep 3 points of contact when climbing stairs.

This shows that said rep is out of his/her depth and a more competent individual should be appointed. Applying this to stairs was explicitly excluded in the HSE guidance when the regs came in.

To further qualify slips and trips are a huge risk (risk based on frequency and outcome, where lots of minor injuries make a task high risk, as would one fatality).

if you have to carry things or there are other aspects that increase the hazard of the stairs then control measures are needed

Manual handling will cover taking items up and down stairs, a decent RA will tell you to use the lift for moving things between floors.

Nice to see a few people asking the right questions! How many falls down stairs caused by holding a hand rail? None would be my guess, how could holding a hand rail cause you to fall? Holding a hand rail is a control measure introduced to limit the consequences of a slip or fall down stairs.

My personal opinion for my work place is that rules for handrail holding is over the top. But then the building I work in is only 3 years old and has lovely wide, evenly spaced stairs that are visually easy to judge. This is due to building regulations that ensure this is the case.

Not all buildings are the same though and some stairs will be safer than others by design, so it's entirely plausible that another buildings will have less safe stairs that a competent person has identified and needing additional control measures through their own incident? monitoring. And that's before you look at individuals who may have poor eyesight, coordination, disabilities, etc...

So if stairs are so dangerous why do we have them?

Surely, on the fundamental principles of risk management they should be "eliminated" and replaced with lifts?

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gobuchul - Member
So if stairs are so dangerous why do we have them?

Surely, on the fundamental principles of risk management they should be "eliminated" and replaced with lifts?

Dangerous is a very broad term - almost emotive really. There are risks associated with stairs. Using a hand rail reduces or eliminates most of them, not using them to move goods etc. removes a load more. The risk level from stairs being used correctly and maintained well is low.

All the WC's at Chilwell had a sign on them saying "Use a brush before you flush".....

I kid you not.

I once read a COSHH data sheet for barrier cream, I was supposed to wear latex gloves before applying it. H and S legislation is of vital importance in the workplace but taking it too far devalues it in the eyes of the employees and causes resentment.

The risk level from stairs being used correctly and maintained well is low.

So why put extra signage on them?

So why put extra signage on them?

This is why I love STW. What started as a light hearted 'comedy sign' thread has become a discussion on the dangers of staircases.

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This part, for those who think running up them is clever etc.

How does a sign stop people from running up them?

is it that bloody difficult to understand? I can see why so many signs are needed.

Using stairs correctly is not difficult to understand.

No signs are needed at all.

Pointless signs detract from safety.

Focus on the real issues.

There you go, what are the real issues?
Especially when going for zero accidents

There is a sign in our toilets forbidding stand-up wees, it's sit-down girl-style only.

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First time I came across the handrail thing was working on a conference for BP. I get the whole "taking oil rig procedures and applying to office staff, so if they ever end up on a rig it's second nature" thing, but they did tend to push things a bit far.

There was an easy way round it though. The event H&S guy from BP only worked 0900 - 17.30 as obviously working longer hours is not healthy and is unsafe, so we just worked 18.00-08.00. 🙂

It also tickled me that they wanted a large heavy wooden bar moving between floors. It was a 6-8 man carry, but the lift was too small for it and the stairwell sufficiently tight we could only get 4 people round it. He stood and watched us bust our asses getting this thing up the stairs and didn't say a word. We'd have very happily been told to stop doing it, but it needed to come from a client rep, not from us saying "we can't".

Using stairs correctly is not difficult to understand.

No signs are needed at all.

And yet, 1000 major stair related accidents each year...

Genuine question from someone who never frequents a modern office etc do the companies advocating handrail use also restrict wearing of high heeled shoes?

I used to work at a place with a sign in the kitchen

All electrical appliances must be attended while in use*

* excludes fridge

This is my favourite work signage. It's at a design agency I regularly do work for. It's on the wall outside the meeting room, for when you've had clients in 😀

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I worked at a place that had a microwave, but it had a time lock on it. We weren't allowed to use it to heat our own food, unless we were one of the few people on a nightshift. Presumably because they didn't want people carrying hot food around the office. Annoying, but I can see the logic.

Excpet you could buy as much tea, coffee, soup and hot food as you wished from the canteen and carry that anywhere.

Eventually everyone managed to persuade whoever was responsible for HSE to change their minds.

Especially when going for zero accidents

You can go for it but you will never achieve it. When people are involved you will always have accidents. No amount of signage will help.

I was told a few years ago, by a H&S professional, that there had been no fatalities in the North Sea for a number of years, when I highlighted the Super Puma fatalities from 2009 and a number of diving accidents, he happily pointed out that the diving accidents were counted separately and the helicopter crash was an air accident.

He then happily carried on telling people to reserve park and use the handrail on the stairs.

I worked at a Government site for a short period, a new speed bump was installed over a weekend. The facilities manager sent an email to everyone to inform them and instructing us to stop our vehicle before the new speed bump, then get out and inspect it, so could have an appreciation of what we were going to be driving over.

At the same place we had to read and sign instructions before we could use the shared Tom Tom satnavs.

I guess you think that's all part of risks being ALARP?

And yet, 1000 major stair related accidents each year..

How many had signs?

And yet, 1000 major stair related accidents each year..
How many had signs?

What numbe of stairs were involved and what were they made out of?

[quote=tjagain ]But by putting in control measures that are widely ignored like in my workplace the handrails thing you undermine the whole culture of H&S in the workplace making it easier for staff to ignore much more important control measures

Which is why you then have to do what convert is complaining about and enforce them rigorously. benefit/cost ratio of getting people to use the handrail is incredibly high.

[quote=gobuchul ]I was told a few years ago, by a H&S professional, that there had been no fatalities in the North Sea for a number of years, when I highlighted the Super Puma fatalities from 2009 and a number of diving accidents, he happily pointed out that the diving accidents were counted separately and the helicopter crash was an air accident.
He then happily carried on telling people to reserve park and use the handrail on the stairs.

Ah, whataboutery.

Following your logic, using the handrail and reverse parking would be more important if a helicopter crash hadn't happened?

Ah, whataboutery.

Following your logic, using the handrail and reverse parking would be more important if a helicopter crash hadn't happened?

No. Not at all.

I was highlighting the mentality of a large number of H&S professionals I have worked with. It's all about statistics and numbers, with loads of petty rules and procedures.

Maybe you could help me out then - why did the 2009 helicopter crash mean he shouldn't provide advice on reverse parking or using the handrail on stairs?

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My brother has wee stickers that he puts into lighting rigs "before falling from height, don fall arrest gear".

Not signs but the Bank of Scotland had an amazing collection of videos. The "what to do in a bank raid" was like a guy ritchie film, complete with someone getting beaten to a pulp with a pool ball in a sock. "What to do in the event of a bomb threat" had a bored receptionist taking down the details like any other phone call "What was it regarding? A bomb, lovely. What sort of bomb? Semtex, classic choice sir. Do you have a job number already, or is it a new bombing? And who shall I say is calling? The IRA? OK everyone's out for lunch but I'll pass on the threat. Is there a number we can get you back on?"

But the best was the pyromaniac fire inspector dude who showed us the official video, then always broke out his own personal collection of videos... You could hear him get excited as he talked about the Bradford City fire, or the Station Nightclub... If our building ever burned down, we'd all have told the police "he did it"

Are the handrails on stairs to be held going, up, down or both? What if someone is coming the opposite way?

I've never heard this rule before, so I am quite perplexed that adults have to be told how to use the stairs properly.

What is the limitation for what one can carry up the stairs? If I carry a laptop bag in my hand is that allowed or do I need to use the shoulder strap?

Surely the signs are there to stop them being sued by someone falling down / tripping up on the stairs. If they can show that they have warned the people using the stair about holding the rail, then the likely hood of being sued is lessened ? I hate having to hold a handrail in a public place, due to so many people not following the signs in the bathroom telling you to wash your hands !!

Years back whilst constructing a scrubber platform in a quarry , we installed a 32 step staircase that had a 90° turn in it. The handrails were not put on it for a couple of days, but we used it for access. To everyone else's amusement i used to go up it on my hands and knees and come down on my arse , as im not good with heights (approx 6 metres at its highest).
Funny thing was, once the hand railing was on , i could walk up and down it without having to touch the rail.

Excpet you could buy as much tea, coffee, soup and hot food as you wished from the canteen and carry that anywhere.

We were once at a garden centre cafe and we asked for a mug of hot water (to warm a bottle for the baby).

We were told they couldn't do it [i]"because of the elf'n'safety"[/i]

[i]"Right... ...well... just the five mugs of scalding hot tea then please."[/i] 😕

(Nothing against H&S itself - but unfortunately it does seem to empower bureaucrats and jobsworths who seem incapable of applying it with sense)

I always descend stairs with my hands in my pockets. Living on the edge!

There used to be a sign in our toilets

'Please do not wash feet in the sinks'

I don't know either.

Some folk are required to wash their feet before prayers. I don't mind so long as they dry floor afterwards.

Well the fun got kicked out of this thread fairly quickly.

That's what we do 🙂

One of my current roles is being a taxi driver. Council rules on clothing are that I'm not allowed to wear a t-shirt or shorts whilst on duty. No mention of kilts or sarongs, nor of being topless.

SSE is folklore in contractor circles - for a contractor isn't it instant dismissal if you go down the stairs not holding the rail?

We have a big posh (multi-million £) staircase in this building with a leather wrapped rail on each side. Below each rail is a glass partition type thing, which our contract cleaners decided to try to polish with pledge...with obvious results. All the signs in the world aren't going to help Big Donna when she goes top to bottom on the way to the canteen...

Aint habd rails likely to be covered in germs n fecal matter

How many times are stairs used in the workplace over a year? This is needed to make sense of the number of accidents

Lol! Thought my place of work would be mentioned a number of times in this thread 🙂

Are the handrails on stairs to be held going, up, down or both? What if someone is coming the opposite way?

Yes, there should also be a hold the left handrail rule.

I know a few folk who work in H&S and none have been able to provide stats to back up reverse parking, so anyone ever found them?

One for the AvE fans:

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https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/530489313/2-toolbox-security-stickers-for-5

The last time I had 'health and safety innit' thrown at me for why something had to happen, I asked to see the risk assessment. Amazingly, there was not one, just some jobsworth trying to make something happen.

Which reminds me, I need to make a sign encouraging people to wash their hands after goign to the toilet. I think something like "Wash your hands, you're not some kind of filthy savage" should be subtle enough.

I pretty much always reverse park - it makes it so much quicker to get out of the space.
I did the first CDM risk assessments in my office in about 96/97 - those soon spiralled completely out of control into telling people how to put their shoes on, completely obscuring the real risks of things such as scary working over a 25m deep shaft, or next to a 25kV power cable. I always liked putting in the risk of the presence of pre-1920s hair plaster and the unlikely, but potential top-event of death.
On transportation systems one of the top-events in stations is always falling down stairs and escalators, I think it has by far the highest likelihood during operation.

We had a set of instructions sent around for those that run or walk at lunchtimes ordering us to double knot our laces and watch for cracks in the pavements.

those soon spiralled completely out of control into telling people how to put their shoes on, completely obscuring the real risks of things

This used to be in the Introduction to the 2007 CDM. I think this should be at the heart of Safety Management Systems.

[i]The effort devoted to planning and managing health and safety should be in proportion to the risks and complexity associated with the project.
When deciding what you need to do to comply with these Regulations, your focus should always be on action necessary to reduce and manage risks.
Any paperwork produced should help with communication and risk management.
Paperwork which adds little to the management of risk is a waste of effort, and can be a dangerous distraction from the real business of risk reduction and management.[/i]

Not sure if this is true or an urban myth but I understand that at the BP office in Canary Wharf if they have booked a meeting room for 8 people and 9 turn up i.e. more than the room is allocated to hold then rather than drag another chair into the room they will cancel/re-arrange the meeting.

It's supposed to be related to strict adherence to guidelines cos of like, well being on oil rigs n ever'thang.

EDIT: Oh dear, i have been 'Etna'd' as we would say at work. didn't read the whole thread and already been mentioned on previous page(s)

The hot water is a good one. Went to the Eden project in Cornwall about 7 years ago now. Asked for some hot water to warm some baby food and was told that they couldn't due to the scalding risk. Pointed out the hot tea, coffee, soup etc. that was also a scalding risk. Got my hot water in the end.

I've got a new one (I think, I scanned through) -

convert -

My wife's old place - SSE

Also SEE of the handrail and reverse park laws - no coats, cardigans etc on the back of chairs..! Sackable offence.
How many people have been killed by such items? I've always got a spare jacket on the back of my chair, it's never tried to strangle me or nuffing.

I am never sure what to make of this one.

On Edinburgh council business if you are cycling ie between places of work / to appointments you HAVE to wear hi vis but no mention of a helmet.

I would have thought cyclecraft training would be more appropriate

you HAVE to wear hi vis but no mention of a helmet.

Hi Viz is £1. Helmet £15? Inspection requirements etc. Costs a lot more.

I would have thought cyclecraft training would be more appropriate

It very probably would. However, again it definitely would cost a lot more.

Also SEE of the handrail and reverse park laws - no coats, cardigans etc on the back of chairs..! Sackable offence.
How many people have been killed by such items? I've always got a spare jacket on the back of my chair, it's never tried to strangle me or nuffing.

Yes, I forgot about that!

It's a real shame as SSE employees have to do some scary shit as part of their roles from climbing trees to free power lines after storms, to constructing and inspecting pylons and turbines as well as all the potential of power stations and sub stations to fry yourself and they are pretty marvellous at keeping their employees safe doing that stuff. Yet they are best known for their H&S overkill in the call centres.

I just scalded my finger, filling my cup out of the boiler whilst gazing around the kitchen walls for stupid signs 😳

Reverse parking was mandatory when I worked in the Middle East in the oil industry. Lots of different sized vehicles, in particular very big articulated trucks, and varying standards of drivers. Reversing out of a parking space trying to see past a high sided van when there's a 40 tonne rig heading your way = not a good idea.

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My previous institution had a supply of straitjackets which were occasionally necessary. Because each was used many times, we eventually had to put a label in them "Warning: May contain traces of nut"

Quite a bit of talk about overzealous H&S professionals here. Where I work we have a very sensible and very qualified HSE manager, talking to him he has a very sensible and proportionate approach to managing the risks we have.

Unfortunately, despite the fact we employ someone who really knows his stuff, our board of directors and CEO have self appointed themselves as experts without any qualifications whatsoever. And as they are the people steering the business, our H&S direction does not (in my opinion) encourage an improved culture.

We currently strive for zero harm through disciplinary procedures and incredibly frequent audits.

We need a rule at my place to tell people to stop people bringing in massive amounts of cake and biscuits pretty much every day - it's overwhelming.

Of course the risk is in the long term when everyone dies of obesity-related diseases...

If I didn't ride in I'd have joined the rest of the UK in the competition to see who can be the fattest 🙄

We need a rule at my place to tell people to bring in massive amounts of cake and biscuits pretty much every day

FTFY

My favourite gobsmackingly stupid bit of "safety" was when the safety officer bent the pins in the fire extinguishers to stop students pulling them out. We found this out when a litre of diethyl-ether went up in flames.

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