[Closed] Steve Jobs (Not a thread for the Dianaesque Handwringing)

I wanted to discuss the man's legacy from a sensible point of view (ie not hating). Very clever businessman - most people have visions but he controlled his company and produced the vision better than most I think.

Interesting that he has made computers into a brand, whereas most other companies were just trying to get them into as many homes/hands as possible. MS won that battle hands down - was Apple's pushing of the particular brand (post-iMac) a realisation of Jobs' vision for market domination, or was it a plan to create a cult/lifestyle option?

I've ordered 2 more Apple products in respect of him, including my first Mac computer. Well that's what I'll tell the Mrs it's for anyway.

I'm somewhat surprised by the outpouring of grief; he was certainly a great innovator, a technical wizard and had a vision which has shaped the world we live in, but he won't be remembered for being a nice guy, which to my mind is fairly important. Add in the profits made by Apple and consider the conditions abroad where iphones and the like are made and the hero worship begins to look a little bit silly.

In most people's vocabularies, design means veneer. It's interior decorating. It's the fabric of the curtains and the sofa. But to me, nothing could be further from the meaning of design. Design is the fundamental soul of a man-made creation that ends up expressing itself in successive outer layers of the product or service.

Now this is why apple have done what they've done. I would contend that all those who sneeringly dismiss Jobs are actually demonstrating a fundamental lack of understanding of the driver behind apple's success.

Jobs' vision for market domination

no - I don't think so. He pushed the Next platform because he believed it was the correct thing to do, a good idea, because it was technologically sound.

Now it lives on in the Mac.

pretty interesting bloke if you ask me.

"Nice man" - do you think Winston Churchill, Lance Armstrong, Thomas Edison et al were/are "nice"?

That can be said for all corporations though, they all have dirty secrets most of it being where the items are made. Then there's the argument that the business from these places provides jobs that wouldn't be there so these people would have even worse conditions.

As for not being a nice person, well the press loves to write about famous and successful people having a nasty side but we all do.

The tribute side isn't so shocking when you think how many people are using a product influenced by him and Apple. The very products themselves are why your viewing them so easily.

Nice?

Hmmm, so being successful and being nice should be exclusive?
A fairly sad way to view the world in my opinion.

Nice

No reason for them to be exclusive, but over-emphasis of "nice" is typical British underachieving bollox.

Hmmm, so being successful and being nice should be exclusive?
A fairly sad way to view the world in my opinion.

Not sure where I said that, I pointed out what the press love to do.

Was aimed at the hardcore DrJ, who seems to be some kind of killing MACHINE, stamping in the still warm carcasses of his business rivals as he drinks a toast to their weeping women.

Silly.

Nice straw man you've got there, crikey. Make sure you include him in the family photos.

consider the conditions abroad where iphones

You mean in the same Foxconn factory where components for practically all phones are made? Yes awful isn't it? But that's global markets and emerging economies for you. Hardly Apple or Steve's fault.

consider the conditions abroad where iphones

China's suicide rate is unfortunately very high (3x the UK) but the conditions in the Foxconn are much better than average.

Apple seems to be like McDonalds, in that it attracts criticism for things that are far worse in many other companies, but its got the brand name to get the headlines in the papers.

So its ok because everyone does it. Really?

Apple seems to be like McDonalds, in that it attracts criticism for things that are far worse in many other companies, but its got the brand name to get the headlines in the papers.

...and therefore has the opportunity to do something about it that would influence the world in a better way.

Shame they can't be arsed, eh?

I heard on radio 4 today that he was a pretty tough B'stard, very controlling and hard to work with. I have difficulty reconciling these aspects of his character with the concept of 'nice'.

That said, I never knew the bloke.

As above, let's give praise for what he was and what he achieved, but its important to see the whole picture, and turn down the hero worship.

Ultimately, a great man in many ways, but with the same human flaws as everyone. I think that is a more fitting tribute to anyone rather than slavish hero worship.

Ultimately, a great man in many ways, but with the same human flaws as everyone. I think that is a more fitting tribute to anyone rather than slavish hero worship.

He was human - did anyone say anything different?

IMO he helped to make computers/gadgets look more interesting rather than dull beige boxes.

So its ok because everyone does it. Really?

No, its not ok, but neither is it a problem unique to Apple so why present it as such?

...and therefore has the opportunity to do something about it that would influence the world in a better way.

... like ensure the factory has good working conditions?

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/02/ff_joelinchina/

"Up went a factory, up went a dorm. Up went an assembly line, up went a cafeteria. While other companies’ workers fended for themselves or slept under the tables they worked at, Gou’s employees were well fed, safe from the petty crime of a growing metropolis, and surrounded by peers and advocates."

You mean in the same Foxconn factory where components for practically all phones are made?

really? source?

the conditions in the Foxconn are much better than average.

really? source?

*cant be arsed..

Ooo look at the scotty policeman!

*cant be arsed

[i]for gods sake stop your stupid whiny bitchy moaning [/i]

Irony much?

I've been irked all day, but have been quiet all day out of the respect I'd give anyone who'd just passed away. But I'll rant here to release a bit of pressure.

All this press attention, blogging and forum posting is another sad reflection on our consumer and celebrity obsessed society. If I was a religious man I'd be pointing out that you shouldn't worship false idols. It's all a bit silly and Dianaesque is a good term for it. I can't wait for it to blow over.

Hopefully some good will come out of his death in the form of a legacy for cancer research; pancreatic cancer is a pretty mean disease, a friend of mine died from it two years ago in her late forties. Jobs did well living as long as he did.

1) He had a rather rare form of pancreatic cancer AFAIIK - his isn't really that relevant to others.
2) He wasn't always nice - show me a really successful businessman or politician who is.
3) It is a big company competing with other companies -and so they will use the same kind of supply chain.

So he wasn't a man who did the technical side of the innovation - but his record at Apple and Pixar does show him to be a business and packaging innovator. We need people like him to drive innovation and business.

I don't see any Diana-type hand-wringing, just people realising that - even if he was a not always generous nice person - he was significant.

really? source?

🙄

Foxconn is [b]the world's largest[/b] maker of electronic components including printed circuit boards.
...
Foxconn makes consumer electronics for a number of well-known companies, including:

Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
Amazon.com (United States)[16]
Apple Inc. (United States)[17]
Asus (Taiwan)
ASRock (Taiwan)
Intel (United States)
Cisco (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)[18]
Dell (United States)
Nintendo (Japan)
Nokia (Finland)[17]
Microsoft (United States)
MSI (Taiwan)
Motorola (United States)
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)[19]
Vizio (United States)

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#Clients

I assume you are equally angry with and boycotting those brands?

I like apple products and I'm writing this on one so that's something to thank him for

Difficult day though as the very rare cancer job's had is the very same one a guy in my team at work has so some tough discussions today, not least as the survival rate is zero. :-/

That can be said for all corporations though, they all have dirty secrets

Does that include Gofar?

Does that include Gofar?

No. They're not a corporation.

The tribute side isn't so shocking when you think how many people are using a product influenced by him and Apple

So will there be outpourings of grief when Bill Gates dies?

Do people realise what Gates has done for the modern world?

I'd like to think his philanthropy is from a deep seated sense of altruism and not a PR thing.

All this press attention, blogging and forum posting is another sad reflection on our consumer and celebrity obsessed society.

As one who is frequently concerned, perplexed and depressed by our consumer and celebrity obsessed society, I would have to completely disagree with you.

If you can't see the incredible impact that Jobs has had on our society then you're not looking hard enough.

In Jobs' case he actually does merit all of the press attention he is getting (but which actually he never seemed to court for it's own sake).

Like it or not, the man, his company and its products have had a big impact on all our lives over the last few years.

- written on my imac.

So will there be outpourings of grief when Bill Gates dies?

- written on my W7 netbook (with a proper keyboard)

just lots of geeks recognizing Jobs' influence

Haven't noticed that much geekery. Just lots of normal STWers from non geek to geek. Also your assertion that MS haters have more bile is bollocks. I rarely see any bile directed towards MS. Ambivalence? For sure. But for hatred, see any thread asking about iPhones.

You really don't think more people hate Bill? 😯

I'd write more, but I'm not getting into an argument over this, not today.

[url= http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/10/steve-jobs-disability/ ]read a bit of stuff on the net about him being a visionary blah blah blah, but this Wired article showed me a different side of the man, i think i'll admire him more for this than any aluminium coloured laptop[/url]

He'll be missed because of what he did and who he was.

Here's my tuppence worth: 😀

The doctors think it could have been a virus.

The funeral was poignant, but the reception was terrible.

10 years ago we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash - Now we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

[img] [/img]

If you can't see the incredible impact that Jobs has had on our society then you're not looking hard enough

Hmm.. incredible impact? There are a lot of innovators out there, the ideas in Apple products I'm sure would've made it to consumers anyway. Maybe more slowly, maybe slightly less polished, I dunno.

Most people don't use Macs, still. PCs are so ubiquitous (and brand-less) that we tend not to realise that they exist because of a few people and their decisions and market strategies.

In the early days Macs were terribly expensive compared to PCs, even more so than now. Without IBM's licensed PC idea computers would've stayed much more expensive I feel and seriously slowed their uptake.

Have't Apple always been higher end niche products? All well and good for advancing design and style, but in terms of the egalitarian ideal of putting enabling technology into as many hands as possible, it's pretty poor - surely?

As I said in the other [i]"Dianaesque Handwringing"[/i] thread mol, you don't actually have to use Apple products to feel the influence that Apple have had on design, style and consumerising complicated electronics.

Look at the concept Android phone before iPhone came along:
[img] [/img]
http://www.redmondpie.com/tablets-and-smartphones-before-and-after-the-iphone-and-ipad-images/

😯

I was questioning whether the influence on SOCIETY not just technology could be considered 'incredible' or not..?