[Closed] Sports Direct finally I agree with Wallace on this one!

as gobuchel said!

I've no experience of them so can someone explain what's wrong with a zero hour contract? Is it simply no guaranteed income for the employee or does the zero hour aspect remove certain rights from the employee and obligations from the employer?

If it gives the employer a larger flexible workforce that seems a bit daft. For example why employ three people to cover a 35 hour working week. That's three sets of wages to process, three uniforms to buy etc.

What about workplaces where you're contracted for 35 hours but you're on a salary and the unwritten rule is you're expected to work way beyond your contracted hours, thus diminishing your true hourly wage. Plenty of places like that, exploiting their workforce.

The girl next door to me works in a call centre on a ZHC

She often gets sent home shortly after arriving at work as they don't want her that day, that's after she's paid her child minder for the day etc.
The top-up benefits she gets are a nightmare to manage and are often stopped altogether until the DWP have managed to work it out.

Wasn't it Sports Direct where longer-serving staff recently got a massive cash handout from a share sale/going public or somesuch? Probably not the ZHC lot, admittedly, but it doesn't totally chime with the idea of an exploitative employer.

Comment from the PR about Milliband was funny, but hopefully came direct from Ashley, or it will come back to bite him.

iirc the biggest difference between ZHC at sports direct and the ZHC that deviant seems to enjoy is the compusion to work. Deviant gets whatever weekends and holidays he wants. (Fwiw i did this for the nhs too in the 90's and it was not bad at all) but at sports direct if you don't change your plans and cancel stuff often at very short notice to fit in with them [s]asking[/s] telling you to come into work you get sacked. Imho this is an impossible way of life if you have children or dependents or even if you don't -effectively it means it is impossible to have a second job in shop/business hours alongside as the first one requires you to be available all the time and yet means you have no way of garuanteeing a baseline monthly income. Try renting somewhere to live or god forbid getting a mortgage with that!

deviant - Member
The hysteria with ZHC is hilarious, yes we're all press ganged into working then, no choice guvnor, etc etc....

Well said.

Ordered 2 pairs of running tights 3.95 pair, late wednesday night, 11.30 next day lady delivering them, in between 2 text messages and 3 emails telling me the location iof them.

Great service and low prices, check out their cheap cycling gear.

Seems like a 50/50 spilt with the ZHC fans quite happy to prop up Sports Direct workers with Tax Credits out of the Government Benefit purse.
Royal Mail are going the same way will no more new full-time jobs and only offering 24 hr contracts even though the workers are doing full time (39)hrs, saves on paying sick pay holiday and pro rata bonuses it stinks!

Depends if you are reading the conclusions you want, nice use of emotive language too.
The defenders of ZHC's are pointing out that they work for some people therefore getting rid of them is not a good idea. Babies and bathwater and all that.

Whats wrong is the attitude of certain companies and they way they use their tools.

I wonder if this forum's staunch right wing capitalists' sociopathic selfishness is some kind of mental illness..

Could they be sectioned under the mental health act? They certainly seem to pose a danger to themselves and others

Just as bad as the black and white lefties Yunki

I don't bloody doubt it

My old workplace was staffed by about 50% agency staff on zero hours, don't remember any of them praising the glories of the system. Shifts being cut at short notice and refusing a shift would normally mean less shifts in the future.

mikewsmith - Member
Just as bad as the black and white lefties Yunki

Not as bad as the Black and White Minstrels though, surely?

You often find people supporting something because it's commonly associated with a particular party view or belief system they self identify with.
Not because they actually believe it.

See the unquestioning support of violent dictatorships, excusing atrocities for 'cultural' reasons etc.

I'm a proper romantic old lefty in most respects, but not a huge fan of state intervention in many personal choices - motorbike helmets, seat belts, smoking, fox hunting etc.

It does tend to confuse people.
🙂

The only beneficiaries of ZHC are rapacious businessmen who care nothing for those they employ.
I can't see how this could be anymore self evident.

Watching the right wing intelligentsia attempting to defend this on dogmatic grounds is very sad.
People denying their essential humanity, just so they don't have to challenge their own unthinking belief in a pre-packaged, spoon fed ideology they've never had the balls or self-awareness to question.

Equally applies to the other side too, obviously.

The only beneficiaries of ZHC are rapacious businessmen who care nothing for those they employ.
I can't see how this could be anymore self evident.

Reforms are needed but Millibands headline grabbing isn't going to do that.

Part time, flexible work has always been available for those who need and want it.
ZHC are imposed on those who, in the most part, don't.

Well said mike. But let's be fair to Wallace, his zero hours, zero taxes mantra will need re-writing now that the HRMC has disproved his argument. Still when have facts been important?!?

If there is any dogma in evidence, it is from those dismissing ZHC out of hand, surely?

My nephew has been on zero hours contracts at two different jobs. He's unskilled and not in a position to be choosy about his employment.

At both jobs he had to be available for work each day but would be told that he wasn't needed at short notice, often after he'd already boarded the train to get to work (costing him money on the days that he'd earn nothing), he would rarely work a full week and occasionally wouldn't work at all. He had a level of free time that some of us might be envious of but ultimately it left him unable to plan or budget with any degree of certainty despite supposedly being in 'employment'.

Flexible working for a well regulated employer is a great thing, but I really can't see how zero hours contracts implemented in the way that I know they are can be of benefit to anyone other than the employer.

I really can't see how zero hours contracts implemented in the way that I know they are can be of benefit to anyone other than the employer.

But only to those two employers who offer your nephew no job/income security, it's detrimental to other employers because as you say due to his situation he is "unable to plan or budget with any degree of certainty", which must make him a rather poor consumer, employers need consumers (and consumer confidence) to sell their products and services, without them they go under.

Well said.

Why not then ?
As others note most employers use it as leverage to force/compel employees to work what they [ the employer] want and to send you home, without pay, when you have already turned up.

Very few , if any, employee, is choosing that and it is more typical [ what high 90% ish?] than the atypical exemplar you have chosen to praise.

Well said.

Out of interest what % of the workforce would choose a zero hours contract over an alternative contract?
Have you chosen one for yourself?

As i mentioned earlier i had what amounted to a zhc with nhs inthe 90's. Advantages were being able to have whatever time iff i wanted when it suited me, and if a shift was cancelled within a certain time before it started (only 12 hours i think) i still got paid for it. Oh and i was allowed in the pension scheme.

But when i got the opportunity for the exact same job on a proper full time contract i bit their arm off, because
-i had a predictable income which meant i could (and did) get mortgage rather than renting (which had also been a struggle convincing landlords the the "likelihood" was that i would be able to pay the rent each month since i had no garuanteed hours and the odd really short/quiet month)
-i also got paid holidays,
- sick pay and
-injury/death benefits.
-when i did over 37.5 hours a week i got proper overtime payments at a third my hourly rate on top.
-annual pay increments.
-length of service increases in annual leave.
-looooads of free in-service training useful for other jobs too not just the one i did.

So for the sake of having to accept one weekend in two and not getting exactly the holiday i wanted, it was an easy decision to make and not one i can imagine regretting under any circumstances.

As others note most employers use it as leverage to force/compel employees to work what they [ the employer] want and to send you home, without pay, when you have already turned up.

This is the worst aspect of it and what should be legislated against. And if that happened, Plenty of ambulance chasing legal firms out there could get lots of business supporting people who were managed out, discrimninated against or sacked through that sort of behaviour. Of course the nhs permanent employees versus zhc is nothing like the difference between them at Sports Direct, but Nevertheless, still on a sunday thm could buy his studs from a slightly less gloomy and slightly more financially secure shop assistant, for probably fifty pence more than he would have paid this afternoon.

I think the over all point is that very few employees would chose them because they are crap whatever the pro group say about "choice". Worth noting that the supporters have not chose them personally, that tells us all we need to know about why they are crap ...even they can see.

Indeed they are done to save money and not for the employee

The most depressing thing about all this is that we're now going to have that sock puppet repeating the phrase "zero zero economy" every ten seconds between now and may. Seeing as repeating the phrase "cost of living crisis" aproximately 27,890,764 times hasn't made the remotest difference to the polls, as it's being delivered by someone who is about as genuine, animated and passionate about it as an item of cheap plastic patio furniture

Julian as I said,

teamhurtmore - Member
Prefer the local sports shop though.

But not open when you need them, hence....sports direct..

like ZHR, it has a place filling a need.

Wallace's zero mantra should have limited shelf life, if facts are important. Ditto, Dave's tax cuts promises. Bet your bottom dollar we will hear a lot more of both.

The hysteria with ZHC is hilarious, yes we're all press ganged into working then, no choice guvnor, etc etc....

I may be mistaken but arent benefits with held if you refuse work?

I haven't read everyone's posts ,sorry.
I think rolling zero hour contracts should be illegal.
They could be at least limited to 90 day, trial/seasonal periods.
That should give the business owners some flexibility.

Julian as I said,

Prefer the local sports shop though.
But not open when you need them, hence....sports direct..

Indeed.

And I was careful to point out that this would still be a sunday afternoon you would be visiting them, and that for the sake of some improvment in the quality of life and financial stability of the poor souls who served you today, regulation of some aspects of Zhc would cost you personally say 50p more [i]for the convenience of being able to buy your studs from sports direct on a Sunday[/i]. THM you are no doubt in a better position than me to judge what if any impact regulation on zhc might also have on you as a taxpayer subsidising sports direct through their zhc employees' tax credits.

Swings and roundabouts Julian.

Anyway the two staff that helped me today were (unusually) very cheery and helpful. There English wasn't that bad either and much better than my Slovak. 😉

There English wasn't that bad either

Were they any good at spelling ?

Yes, they're speling and grammer was oursome

Swings and roundabouts Julian.
Anyway the two staff that helped me today were (unusually) very cheery and helpful. There English wasn't that bad either and much better than my Slovak.

Just as well,
I don't know any Slovak, and my polish is limited to "I sleep with old women for money".
And **** obviously.

" I can think of worse jobs."

I don't think anyone's job should be changed until the worst possible job has been improved.

@binners - I'm getting this impression that you're not the biggest fan of Ed - or am I mistaken about that?

senor j - Member

I haven't read everyone's posts ,sorry.

Which is why you don't realise there are good and bad ZHCs. I like mine and wouldn't thank you for it being replaced with a fixed hours contract.

I've read them now. Glad it works out for you irc but this summed it up for me.....

"Part time, flexible work has always been available for those who need and want it.
ZHC are imposed on those who, in the most part, don't. "

I like mine and wouldn't thank you for it being replaced with a fixed hours contract.

Like the MW it is, generally, "supported" by people who do not have to work like that or for so little themselves . Do unto others springs to mind here tbh.

Though in my case I'm offered shifts and can take or leave them. So if I want a free week or fortnight I don't take any shifts.

But then it's also a third income source for me. A zero hours contract as a primary job where the employee has to be available for work at all times is a bit 19th century.

In my case most of the work is done by staff on contracted hours and ZH staff are used to cover sickness/holidays etc. An employer with the majority of staff on zero hours contracts is taking advantage of the unemployed.

I'm getting this impression that you're not the biggest fan of Ed - or am I mistaken about that?

Seeing as repeating the phrase "cost of living crisis" aproximately 27,890,764 times hasn't made the remotest difference to the polls,

Shame on you. You forgot the electoral dynamite that was the fabled 'squeezed middle' soundbite.

Well said IFC.

Although I assume that those who would wish to take this away from you are well meaning. Perhaps a less dogmatic approach would suffice. After all The Resolution Foundation can manage it...

It may be too early to move toward an outright ban of zero-hours contracts given that a minority value the flexibility and choice they provide but there is an indisputable case for giving urgent consideration to what safeguards can be introduced to improve things for the majority.

A far more sensible assessment.

aracer - Member
@binners - I'm getting this impression that you're not the biggest fan of Ed - or am I mistaken about that?

Its the fact that he's so utterly ineffectual irritates me enormously. We've got the most right wing government we've ever had. They're a truly nasty bunch. They make Thatcher look like a kindly aunt. But they're also utterly incompetent. Look how Georges borrowing requirements are shaping up! And they're presently painting themselves into a corner by out-UKIPing UKIP, which could lead to us leaving the EU, sort of by accident. Which would be economically catastrophic. Its hardly a dream combination is it?

Any opposition worthy of the name would be absolutely running rings around this lot. Any opposition worthy of the name would be 10% clear in the polls and looking at a landslide, not flatlining and looking completely clueless as to why. Jesus!! A couple of weeks ago the half-wit almost managed to lose a nailed on labour stronghold to UKIP! Doesn't bode well, does it?

My problem with Ed isn't that he looks like a glove puppet. Its the fact that he's so totally and utterly politically inept. The tories present him with an open goal on an almost daily basis, and every time he lines the ball up, and spoons it into Row Z! And his cluelessness could well deliver us another tory government. Or worse.... a tory/UKIP coalition! Can you imagine? Bye bye NHS! Bye bye welfare state! Anyone fancy the cold harsh reality of us withdrawing from the EU. It'll be financial armageddon!

It surely shouldn't take much wit to point all this out, instead of just parroting crap meaningless catchphrases like the star of some particularly bad sitcom!

Hmm, still not quite sure which way you're leaning there - please tell us more, as I do enjoy it when you talk about him.

I think like JY I just struggle to have any interest - though I agree with you that it's quite incredible how badly he's doing, given that irrespective of what the current government is or has done, a loss at the next election appeared nailed on for whichever party won the last one.

A far more sensible assessment*

Have you chosen one for yourself or are you ,like the majority on them not to mention the majority overall, against them personally for yourself whilst advocating them for others ?

Ed is terrible and , as Binners et al note, failing to lead now is like failing to organise a piss up in a brewery. I am not a fan of personality politics but christ he needs a major transplant. If this is the best the opposition has to offer, Him , Clegg, farage then every voter and every party should take a long hard look in the mirror.

*

Its an interesting read to be fair.
Full report here and that quote is the only non criticising point in two pages of an executive summary and one page of a conclusion and pretty much in the 21 page report . For balance it says them may be ok/good for students and the [semi]retired who can work flexibly/ use it as additional income - or someone who uses it as a third income as here- for the majority the inability to plan budgets, get tax credits, plan their lives and being on permanent call is bad , the service they then provide is also poor [ care industry for example] and very few on them would chose them. There are almost no positives in the entire report for workers on them they are exploitative basically which is why even the "supporters" dont chose them for themselves but are happy for others tp have them thrust on them.

The most disturbing fact is that a large number of the new-to-work population will see them as a perfectly normal way to work.

Flexibility is great if you know and understand what you're missing out on. This kind of work was the cash in hand farm labouring type when I was younger, not a way to staff an office or a shop - it was pocket money (as students) and we were raely turned away, and if we did it didn't really matter. Trying to make a life might be a different matter if it were the norm for employment with a low bar for entry.

I knew I always hated Sports Direct, hideous shop. Oddly I'd guess it is primarily the people who work there on ZHC that are the types who buy all their cloths from there.

Interesting their business model of buying up bankrupt brands and re-marketing them, isn't unlike that Plant-X / On-One model people on here so love.

Oddly I'd guess it is primarily the people who work there on ZHC that are the types who buy all their cloths from there.

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My problem with Ed isn't that he looks like a glove puppet.

I think that's being a bit harsh on glove puppets, some of them are half decent.