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I'm just back from a family get together near Maidstone. We travelled from Carmarthenshire using local A roads, M4, M329, A3, M25- a mix of roads. I am genuinely surprised that my car is still dent free. Awful road manners from many drivers which so often seemed to be either arrogance or total ambivalence to ther road users. Surrey/ Kent locals- how the hell do you cope?
On the return trip once past Reading and the ever prevalent roadworks everything was so much more relaxed. This includes the M4 Newport- Cardiff and the Port Toilet section.
Surrey/ Kent locals- how the hell do you cope?
I have driven all over the UK and not noticed much difference between quality of driving standards.
I think it's fair to say that nearer London people tend to have higher expectations of other drivers reacting quickly, such as pulling out smartish when they have a chance and that might be mis-interpreted by those from rural west Wales? But I think similar attitudes are seen in most big cities such as Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow.
Idiotic driving seems to be the norm nowadays. But I've yet to experience anything worse than the standards of driving in Bradford, having had the unfortunate requirement to commute there on a daily basis until recently.
I was hoping you all would agree SE is p00h driving standards. Dam so pinch point of the UK are all the same then. Where I live KT7 near home is shocking and is notably worse since end of Covid. Its all good once you get out to the hills (Surrey Hills) baring the odd close pass. Tbf its traffic volume is the worse
@Ambrose I have the same experiences, it's like all rules are out the window and you have to expect anything.
But they probably think much the same of rural roads out west where people pass without pause on roads with no centre line whilst aiming to keep it at national limit.
The M25 is horrific. Pick a lane, any lane and do whatever speed you feel like in said lane with zero awareness of any other traffic around you.
I do have a further observation, but racist etc.....
The M25 is horrific. Pick a lane, any lane and do whatever speed you feel like in said lane with zero awareness of any other traffic around you.
I’ll be heading to Enfield from Reading shortly, no doubt I’ll be leaning on the horn whilst passing the driving dead with two empty lanes to their left doing 60 👍.
The issue is that roads policing is expensive (as it requires specialist officers) and not seen as a priority despite bad driving leading to 5 deaths a day and many more serious injuries.
This is also why we have about a million unlicensed/uninsured drivers on UK roads, who are 5x more likely to be in a collision.
Personal vid cameras and send the footage of the offender into the police,making sure you do a follow up.
Some people only change when there is the threat of an anonymous source sending in evidence of their wrongdoing, resulting in a fine/points
I agree that the closer to London, the poorer driving standards are. It's about people's attitude not skills imo.
It's a numbers/population thing init.
The ratio of selfish muppets increases the closer you get to most large cities,or as soon as you are south of the Lake District.
Add road works,accidents and rush hours to the mix and you can be in a world of misery.
I live in Cheltenham and the driving standards here are as poor as most other places I have visited including those in the South East. I have had enough close passes/close calls to buy some cameras for my bike but have only reported one driver in four months as he was the only one who genuinely would have caused damage without some swift action on my part.
I do pass a line of stationary/slow moving traffic during my commute and have been pleasantly surprised how few drivers use their phones whilst queuing. Maybe one or two a week and certainly not the quantity that the likes of Cyclingmikey encounter in that London so maybe there is something in the OP's observations.
Used to live in Ashford. When out on my bike I'd have an incident of one sort or another every other day. Moved to rural Suffolk three years ago. Have an incident of one doctor another once a year. Suffolk being the same size as Kent but with only half the population might have something to do with it. Driving the car is far more relaxed too.
It definitely varies around the country, not necessarily worse but there's certainly 'expectations' of what drivers will do.
Manchester (and to and extent the rest of the Pennine towns across to Leeds) has optional red lights, not just the usual accelerating through amber, drivers seemed to to just keep going untill the other lights were green and cars coming the other way (and sometimes not even stopping the !).
When. I did my motorbike test in Darlington having done all the training down south the instructor commented that whilst he could see why I'd pick up the habbit of doing rolling stops with my head on a swivel, could I dab a foot down at junctions for the examiners sake.
London and SE definitely have a higher expectation of both getting a move on and reacting to other drivers. You just wouldn't get anywhere if you didn't.
Newcastle felt like the epicenter of people being on their phones.
Used to live in Ashford. When out on my bike I'd have an incident of one sort or another every other day. Moved to rural Suffolk three years ago. Have an incident of one doctor another once a year. Suffolk being the same size as Kent but with only half the population might have something to do with it. Driving the car is far more relaxed too.
The M25 is horrific. Pick a lane, any lane and do whatever speed you feel like in said lane with zero awareness of any other traffic around you.
I was just gonna say similar, and mix in a few Fast & Furious wannabes weaving through the traffic at 95mph as well.
Whenever I head down to see my family, I notice the drivers get more aggressive past Brum until the M25.
Drivers definitely get more aggressive as you get closer to London. Worst drivers in the world are just outside Watford. General incompetence is also worse in the SE, from the 50mph in lane 3 brigade to the sheer number driving at 30mph on the motorway with steamed-up windows and no lights on in bad weather.
Can't wait for self-driving cars to hit the roads.
It definitely varies around the country, not necessarily worse but there's certainly 'expectations' of what drivers will do.
Manchester (and to and extent the rest of the Pennine towns across to Leeds) has optional red lights, not just the usual accelerating through amber, drivers seemed to to just keep going untill the other lights were green and cars coming the other way (and sometimes not even stopping the !).
When. I did my motorbike test in Darlington having done all the training down south the instructor commented that whilst he could see why I'd pick up the habbit of doing rolling stops with my head on a swivel, could I dab a foot down at junctions for the examiners sake.
London and SE definitely have a higher expectation of both getting a move on and reacting to other drivers. You just wouldn't get anywhere if you didn't.
Newcastle felt like the epicenter of people being on their phones.
The issue is that roads policing is expensive (as it requires specialist officers) and not seen as a priority despite bad driving leading to 5 deaths a day and many more serious injuries.
AFAIK, there isn't a statutory duty to reduce collisions, but there is a statutory duty to "prevent crime". There is an overlap between collisions and crime which is considered for local policing priorities for your area.
The overlap is arguably all collisions, but the reality is that you won't get a police response to many collisions
There is a statutory duty for the Fire Service to train for and attend collisions as requested, but that isn't preventative. The NFCC have requested a more preventative role and argue that governments should increase their mandate accordingly
The Blair government went down the road of Highways Agency Traffic Officers (HATOs) in the early 2000s, which is where we remain (now National Highways).
I don't know the £££, but I can't help feeling that setting up a new branch of the Highways Agency, giving them buildings, management, communications and training infrastructure, vehicles, kit and people that the same money could have been better spent on roads police who can exceed speed limits, have statutory powers, etc and provide a more rounded service to the public
Boris started a review of collisions and roads policing 5 years ago when he increased police numbers massively, but it's probably dropped off the radar now
Standards have steadily declined since Surfmatt flounced.
Standards have steadily declined since Surfmatt flounced.
We are just back from our annual winter lakes trip and it is noticeable different in the SE. Although for lane hogging I think the M40 is just as bad if not worse than the M25.
Kent traffic is particularly frenetic, 3 major motorways, Dartford crossing & port traffic.
Maidstone in particular has terrible traffic, they have built & are building so many houses the roads can't cope.
I go to Farnborough for work regularly, my 70 mile commute has about 55 miles of roadworks currently, what should be a 1h20 journey is frequently 3 hours.
The run from the Chunnel exit at Folkstone up to about Bishop's Stortford on the M11 is just awful. Welcome back to under-invested under-educated Britain. Drivers with a total lack of lane discipline & situational awareness, a crap road surface and infrastructure that's at least 20 years behind demand.
We're not immune from crap driving in the North East either mind: the A1 and A19 from about Teesside/Scotch Corner up are filled with the observationally challenged.
I've been driving for 30 years and therse been roadworks the entire time somewhere or other.
When are they going to get these roads finished??
I agree that the closer to London, the poorer driving standards are. It's about people's attitude not skills imo.
I don't think it's an attitude thing, it's more that different parts of the country have different 'unwritten rules' or bits of the highway code they flat out ignore.
Manchester and the north Pennines - red lights seems to be advisory unless the car's on green are actually moving, and in some cases they'll still through the junction. Not just the usual accelerate through amber.
Newcastle - everyone seemed to be on their phone and lane discipline was non existent.
Scotland - Motorway discipline seems appalling, forget middle lane driving, it's keep right unless broken down up there. Off the motorways there aren't enough cars to actually draw any conclusions.
SE - agree with the other poster, it's driving borne out of necessity. If you waited for a gap big enough that no one had to react to you pulling out, you'd still be parked up at Watford Gap services. Conversely no one is going to give you a gap if they can help it, if you wanted to be ahead of me, you should have had your Weetabix.
M1 and M4 since growing to 4 or 5 lanes, the middle lane drivers seem to adopt an n-1 approach.
Cambridgeshire, the B in B-road stands for autoBahn
When I took my motorbike test in Darlington having done all my training down south the instructor did remark that I'd clearly been taught the habit of doing a rolling stop at junctions with my head on a swivel to jump into smaller gaps. But for the sake of the examiner I'd have to at least put my left foot down even if not stopping was objectively safer. It's just what you get used to.
I used to commute up to London in the mid noughties every day and it wasn’t until i visited friends in the north of England that I realised how much I’d adapted to the madness of the southeast. Driving up north was serene.
However occasionally I drive on the Dublin M50 (M25 twin) and that is like something out of mad max. You must change lane to avoid something not to overtake. In the southwest of Ireland it’s an offence not to tailgate.
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The issue is that roads policing is expensive (as it requires specialist officers) and not seen as a priority despite bad driving leading to 5 deaths a day and many more serious injuries.all police officers have the powers necessary to enforce road traffic laws. Some of it is more likely to result in a conviction if done by an traffic officer with additional training, but stopping and advising would probably be a good start. Road policing isn't that expensive - compared to the costs of serious injury / fatal road collisions. The last estimate I saw a fatal road accident cost about £1M a time (thats direct costs not the economic costs of closing roads, loss of income for the families involves etc).
We have a status quo where ordinary "beet bobbies" seem to ignore some bad driving, which means "everyone" thinks its OK to go through on amber, stop on a yellow box, park on zig zags, bump up the kerb to get passed a queue etc. I've seen all of those go without any response. A few police constables ago in Scotland we had one who had a particular agenda on traffic (we was a motorcyclist!). He made the point you were much more likely to be killed on the roads in Scotland than murdered and nobody would criticise him for tackling crime that leads to murder.
This is also why we have about a million unlicensed/uninsured drivers on UK roads, who are 5x more likely to be in a collision.
Almost certainly the "never get caught" factor is an element, but uninsured drivers are at least in part because paying by monthly instalments makes it easy for people with no money to miss payments. Those people often don't open all mail, junk etc. And its actually quite easy for an insurer to cancel a policy.
One of the arguments against having a separate "traffic police" force (granting extra powers to highways agency to enforce) - is that often people stopped for these sort of offences are wanted on warrant, are involved in other crime (e.g. my have knives, drugs, stolen property etc in the vehicle).
I don't know the £££, but I can't help feeling that setting up a new branch of the Highways Agency, giving them buildings, management, communications and training infrastructure, vehicles, kit and people that the same money could have been better spent on roads police who can exceed speed limits, have statutory powers, etc and provide a more rounded service to the public
Boris started a review of collisions and roads policing 5 years ago when he increased police numbers massively, but it's probably dropped off the radar now
I'd rather see more US style policing, less focus on 12 points which is pointless when the odds of actually getting caught are so slim. 4 speeding offences leads to a driving ban is all well and good, but plenty of people manage that before breakfast with absolute impunity. There was outrage on the local facebook page when the static M4 cameras were switched on (as opposed to the roadworks average speed) and caught people!
A £50 fine and 20min of your time wasted at the roadside might actually be more of a deterrent. Obviously the police couldn't keep the fines, but to the treasury it could be cost neutral?
I recently drove to South of Birmingham from central Scotland, the journey down was in the evening so the roads were fairly quite. On the return journey starting about midday I was hugely surprised by the high quality of driving on the motorways heading north, it felt like other drivers were being thoughtful, kind and spatially aware, anticipating other drivers movements and accomodating accordingly. I was quite elated at what I witnessed.
"beet bobbies" only get those in Norfolk & Suffolk I believe
One of the arguments against having a separate "traffic police" force (granting extra powers to highways agency to enforce) - is that often people stopped for these sort of offences are wanted on warrant, are involved in other crime (e.g. my have knives, drugs, stolen property etc in the vehicle).
That's staggeringly common - I'd have thought if you were running a county lines drug operation, you might try and slip under the radar a bit, drive a boring car in a fully legal manner, not draw any attention but nope, it seems to be the order of the day that they'll speed, drive uninsured, use the phone etc...
Roads policing is a great way to solve a LOT of crime cos everyone needs to travel.
One of the arguments against having a separate "traffic police" force (granting extra powers to highways agency to enforce) - is that often people stopped for these sort of offences are wanted on warrant, are involved in other crime (e.g. my have knives, drugs, stolen property etc in the vehicle).
That's staggeringly common - I'd have thought if you were running a county lines drug operation, you might try and slip under the radar a bit, drive a boring car in a fully legal manner, not draw any attention but nope, it seems to be the order of the day that they'll speed, drive uninsured, use the phone etc...
Roads policing is a great way to solve a LOT of crime cos everyone needs to travel.
It's crowded down here and you can't be dawdling. I don't think it's worse per-se, just pro-rata bellendry to populus.
Birmingham and its satellite state of Coventry are leagues ahead of any other conurbation for a total disdain of the Highway Code, or even general human awareness standards.
I find from 11 to about 4 on the M25 clock its horrible, the rest is okay. Since a speed awareness thing 10 years ago, and getting older I do let a lot of people out of junctions and pedestrians cross roads etc. Most car drivers dont seem to see I am flashing them out, its takes a few goes normally.
I would love to see a dedicated motoring police force funded by fines which would have at least a zero, if not two, added to the current rate. Ultimately they might work themselves out of a job but that's good anyway.
I would love to see a dedicated motoring police force funded by fines which would have at least a zero, if not two, added to the current rate. Ultimately they might work themselves out of a job but that's good anyway.
Isn't this pretty much the model elsewhere in lots of other places, where the Gendarmerie/Carabinieri/Guardia Civil police main roads?
Wouldn't do much for the abysmal state of urban driving but councils should be encouraged to police this and keep the fines (thanks again, Eric Pickles!) which is what the public think happens to speed camera fines anyway.
And there needs to be more robust/expanded third party video reporting, particularly in Scotland where PS seems unable to get its act together on this.
The M25 is horrific. Pick a lane, any lane and do whatever speed you feel like in said lane with zero awareness of any other traffic around you.
Lane discipline for the M25 is a pretty outdated theory IMHO. The volume of traffic is just so immense and variable speed limits (if adhered to) mean that there really isn't much to be gained in trying to force everyone back to the nearside lane. In fact the matrix signs encourage staying in lane when the variable limits are displaying. Chilling TFO and just sticking in a lane on dual four-lane, dual five-lane, or dual six-lane sections I think results in a smother journey.
It's possibly worse since covid began, but from the east edge of Southampton in SO18, that 2-3 miles closest to home going east or north east can be super hostile. My general rule of thumb was to avoid going out or returning home around school runs and the rush hours plus bit earlier on Fridays.
Beyond that closest few miles, it was and still is usually like pressing a light switch, so chilled beyond Hortons Heath; Durley; Curdridge.