[Closed] Something happened to me today that was truly vile and deeply upsetting.

I'd echo the earlier comments about the possibility of the women being with the Fair, but rather than a distraction theft, using it as a tactic to remove people who may be press, or taking photos and capturing employees that perhaps they don't want appearing in the newspaper.

You might get one mouthy mum with her mates standing behind in a concerned manner, but to have six right in your face and aggressive seems a bit unusual? Unless they were genuinely convinced you were up to no good, but then they'd have prevented you from leaving...

Hi Greg - that is a horrible thing, and apart from anything else, it has a bit of a chiling effect, such that next time you are out doing something you enjoy you will have this unpleasantness at the back of your mind. Maybe the best thing is to get back in the saddle and go out and shoot some of your great street portraits!

Fun fairs are where the Brits demonstrate their true ugliness.

At a fun fair with a camera single man without children.

On the one hand you have a point, but on the other, your point is predicated on and indicative of precisely the kind of bigoted and prejudicial belief systems that lead people to conclude 'she's dressed like a whore so therefore she's up for it' or 'he black, wearing a baseball cap and walking in a funny way, he must be a drug dealer'.

Think about it; what possible harm or pernicious intent could a man with a camera taking pictures really have. If I had been female, do you really think they would have reacted the same way; would you?

I'm entirely sensitive to their response, which is precisely why my immediate reaction was to try and diffuse the situation with an apology and a reassurance that I wouldn't take any pictures where their children might end up being in the frame.

But I draw the line at being instructed (really rather aggressively) to delete my pictures by anyone. No one has the legal authority to do that.

To be honest, if they had been polite about it, heck I'd even settle for purely civil, I would have done that. But this wasn't about anything other than hate, bile and vindictiveness.

Where is society when you start pandering to the vicious baying mob? My pictures might not be that significant, but the values and beliefs that they are made with are.

On the local Fb page a driver did a screenshot from his dashcam of a kid riding her bike in front of her mum without a helmet on . The point the driver was trying to make was that is was safer to wear a helmet . He got attacked instantly for posting photos of children online ( no face in pic , no name ) by alot of mums. Some people asked for the post to be removed by the admin , some were spouting that it was illegal and the police should be involved.
Poor bloke was trying to say , ' be safer to wear a helemt' next thing the peado police are burning his car. .

Thats what the world has come to and its a shame .
insert unsuitable stw joke to lighten mood.- You didnt have a gold shiney tracksuit and a cigar per chance ?

That's all very nice GeeTee but we don't live in a perfect world and people are on a hair trigger on a number of issues these days and don't always behave or react in a politically correct manner. A harrowing experience for the OP indeed, but people seem to be on a hair trigger these days with this sort of thing. I'm afraid if I was at a fun fair, or any other public venue, and thought I saw a stranger taking pics of my kids i'd confront them. My approach would be perfectly pleasant and polite, but would demand to view the pics and if there were pics of my kids on there then i'd demand they deleted them - in fact I might go a step further and demand they re-format their memory card altogether as I wouldn't trust them to not recover the photo's later. Legal authority or not there is absolutely not a cat in hells chance of them leaving with photo's of my kids on their camera.

And if I did confront someone and if they did have photo's of my kids on their camera which they refused to delete to my satisfaction, that would only serve to confirm my concerns/worries/suspicions and things would escalate from there.

I even get a bit narked at friends posting pics that include my kids in them on social media. I think it's a bit wrong to do that without the permission of the parents. Nowt I can do about that I just have to take it, but I wouldn't take it from a total stranger deliberately targeting my kids with their camera. I wouldn't do it, if I was on my own with a camera in a public area i'd make sure that I wasn't pointing my camera in the direction of a bunch of other people's kids. And if I were genuinely taking pics of general people at a public place i'd seek out parents to ask permission because I am aware of the sensitivities being a parent myself.

Parents behaviour is not always logical or reasonable when it comes to their kids.

geetee1972

Think about it; what possible harm or pernicious intent could a man with a camera taking pictures really have. If I had been female, do you really think they would have reacted the same way; would you?

No, but the majority of paedophiles are men. I'm not saying that to excuse what they did though as I empathise with you. What they did was stupid, irrational, prejudiced and reactionary and no doubt unpleasant for you.

To play devils advocate for just a second though, I have to imagine myself in their position, and if I was convinced a lone man was taking pictures directly of my children, I would go and politely ask to see the photographs. A single woman can't confront a man alone though, so you get the kind of mob reaction you recieved.

Now, removing my devils advocate hat, and replacing it with a street photographers one, I would say you should have kept on shooting. Take pictures of them as they screamed at you. Call the cops yourself and photograph them as they show up. It would make for a potentially great body of work.

OP your social radar is out. I am afraid people with this mentality frequent these places. It is not a scene from a fairground of a Mary Poppins movie at traveling fun fairs nowadays!

Legal authority or not there is absolutely not a cat in hells chance of them leaving with photo's of my kids on their camera.

I respect your position and in response to a polite request I would almost certainly comply (categorically that is not what happened here and I work on the assumption that you've acknowledged that).

But, and this is really important, for as much as I might respect your request and your view, you do realise that if you ask and I refuse, that really is all there is to it. You have no authority and neither do the police. And as others have pointed out, your kids are being photographed and observed a thousand times a day whenever they walk down the high street of any town or city in the UK. And in those instances, the observer is remote and unknown, sitting in a private building somewhere else. At least what I do is open and honest; I'm not hiding it form anyone.

This is important debate and it one I make with sincere respect and understanding. But the debate is about freedoms, from prejudice, from pernicious assumptions about your intent, about civil liberties. Your children, as are mine, are precious and the most important things in our world (I am a father of two young boys btw, not that I think that mitigates anything but it does show I understand your position), but taking pictures of them, either directly or by accident, is not evidence of evil intent nor does anyone have the right to demand you don't do it.

Geetee, you have my sympathies, it sounds like a nasty experience.

But without meaning to sound harsh, what did you expect might happen? Although your actions are completely innocent, other people don't know that.

To them, you're just a stranger with unknown motivations. Right or wrong, they're just protecting themselves. And when the mob-handed mentality descends there's no reasoning with them.

You should have called the police and let them resolve. Live and learn I guess.

I would say you should have kept on shooting. Take pictures of them as they screamed at you. Call the cops yourself and photograph them as they show up. It would make for a potentially great body of work.

^ My immediate thoughts.

Probably would've wound up wearing camera down throat along with teeth. For art!

When my dogs were attending puppy classes, there was a session where they had a small child on a scooter riding around the hall.

One of them really didn't like it, the noise and possibly the speed of movement.

The trainer suggested that I go and hang around at a playground with the puppies to get them used to children. I declined.

But without meaning to sound harsh, what did you expect might happen? Although your actions are completely innocent, other people don't know that.

I guess I was thinking that I shouldn't have to rely on other people not reaching stupid, illogical or baseless conclusions.

It's the same thing a 'slut shaming' or saying 'what did you expect was going to happen, you were drunk, dressed like a slut and in a bad neighbourhood on your own late at night?'

That's a vile line of reasoning and while my situation is different, it is the exact same logic.

There is nothing inherently wrong, permicious or vile about anyone taking a photograph of anyone, even a child, in a public place.

geetee1972

It's the same thing a 'slut shaming' or saying 'what did you expect was going to happen, you were drunk, dressed like a slut and in a bad neighbourhood on your own late at night?'

I think you should probably avoid implying that what happened to you is in any way similar to rape, or rape apologists. I would say that's an ill advised comparison.

That's a vile line of reasoning and while my situation is different, it is the exact same logic.

I don't think that it is. At the end of the day, even though these women seem to be over reacting massively to your actions they are doing so out of some misguided form of parental instinct to protect their child.

geetee1972 -

There is nothing inherently wrong, permicious or vile about anyone taking a photograph of anyone, even a child, in a public place.

Legally, you are correct. And you know your intentions were innocent. But. When the current laws were created it wasn't possible to take a photograph and instantly broadcast it or share to anyone or everyone in the world instantaneously.

then i'd demand they deleted them - in fact I might go a step further and demand they re-format their memory card altogether as I wouldn't trust them to not recover the photo's later. Legal authority or not there is absolutely not a cat in hells chance of them leaving with photo's of my kids on their camera.

You can demand till you are blue in the face, if it's in a publc space with no specific bylaws you will be told to jog on or the police would be called to be told to jog on politely.
Reformatting will just delete the directory and the images are easily recovered.

Geetee, (Greg?), what on earth were you thinking?
A single man with a camera ? At a fun- fair? Taking pictures?
Next you'll find yourself drawn to crowded beaches or 'God forbid', youth sporting events!!!!
It's a slippery slope.
Rise above it my man, you're not the problem. 🙂

Hope you're feeling better OP. Live and learn, some people are reactionary cockwombles. Personally, if I saw someone randomly snapping pictures at a fun fair my first thought would be 'Street Photography' and not 'Oh my Godz Peado' then again I like to think I'm fairly reasonable. Experience has taught me a lot of people aren't.

It sounds like you handled the situation well. I'd have probably started apologetic, but lost my shit when the shoving started. Never raised a hand to a woman, but reckon I could take six Carny ladies using the camera as a swingy weapon 🙂 (that's a joke hand wringers of STW)

Legally, you are correct. And you know your intentions were innocent. But. When the current laws were created it wasn't possible to take a photograph and instantly broadcast it or share to anyone or everyone in the world instantaneously.

This is sort of true but mass media is not a new thing. It has acquired a lot more mass recently but I'm not sure why it changes anything. I am of course entirely aware of peoples feelings, which is why i always react sensitively to these, thankfully rare, instances.

My other parallels are contentious I grant you, but since I was technically assaulted it's not quite the stretch in comparison you suggest. Ultimately their reaction was based prejudice and power. Everyone has natural urges and instincts and however laudable or natural they may be, that's no excuse for behaving in the way they didn't

My other parallels are contentious I grant you, but since I was technically assaulted it's not quite the stretch in comparison you suggest. Ultimately their reaction was based prejudice and power.

No mate it isn't a remotely close comparison.

"Technically assaulted".FFS. MTFU.

You could of walked away at anytime but chose not to as point of principle. How does that compare with a victim of rape or sexual assault? 🙄

I don't for a second think those women really, truly believed he was a paedophile. If they had, they would have called the police. I deal with morons like this all the time. They enjoy the confrontation and it's an easy one to be self-righteous about. It's also about asserting their "human rights". It's their kids innit.

Sorry this happened to you OP this and the reaction of some posters on here is reminding me of a Brass eye episode and the fact that the general public are complete idiots who oiver react to many situations

Its a public place folk where people may take pics the chances of them being a deranged paedo who wants pics of fully clothed kids in public places for their own sexual arousal is, to put it mildly, slim.

I'm afraid if I was at a fun fair, or any other public venue, and thought I saw a stranger taking pics of my kids i'd confront them. My approach would be perfectly pleasant and polite,

I get why we are all protective of our kids but here folk are over reacting massively due to their own inner paranoia of a highly unlikely to occur event

I had to drop my eldest son off at a scout camp night and my wife had said I could have an hour with my camera

Is disappointed with the direction that things went from here 😕

wobbliscott - Member
I'm afraid if I was at a fun fair, or any other public venue, and thought I saw a stranger taking pics of my kids i'd confront them. My approach would be perfectly pleasant and polite, but would demand to view the pics and if there were pics of my kids on there then i'd demand they deleted them - in fact I might go a step further and demand they re-format their memory card altogether as I wouldn't trust them to not recover the photo's later. Legal authority or not there is absolutely not a cat in hells chance of them leaving with photo's of my kids on their camera.
And if I did confront someone and if they did have photo's of my kids on their camera which they refused to delete to my satisfaction, that would only serve to confirm my concerns/worries/suspicions and things would escalate from there

What could somebody do with photos of (let's assume fully dressed) kids at a funfair/public space that would require you to act like that to prevent it ?

Presumably, as a stranger, there's no way of them even "tagging" the photos so they'd be anonymous whatever was done - never mind finding your address to follow up this contact (unless they work for some imaginary superspy agency or whatever)

"Technically assaulted".FFS. MTFU.

Yeah because I'm a bloke it's less of a prolem and you're OK with it.

Assaults, including rape, are always about power. This situation was no different. Why does my gender mean your reaction is 'mtfu'?

The majority of any abuse, including sexual, is carried out by someone known to the child. Mostly family members.

Statistically, there is more chance of those mums being child abusers than a single man with a camera in a theme park in the UK...

Legal authority or not there is absolutely not a cat in hells chance of them leaving with photo's of my kids on their camera.
And if I did confront someone and if they did have photo's of my kids on their camera which they refused to delete to my satisfaction, that would only serve to confirm my concerns/worries/suspicions and things would escalate from there

And what would you do if they refuse? You would break the law to stop someone else doing something perfectly legal?

Refusing to do something that they have no obligation to do doesn't confirm any suspicions. Some people simply like their freedoms and won't pander to this paranoia. By your own admission, you wouldn't be sure they actually had photos of your kids.

I too would not have put myself in that position. We/you can gnash teeth as much as we like about the state of affairs where this is the case but like it or not the general populous have decreed that people walking around in public talking photos that might contain images of children without the consent of their parents is not socially acceptable. Lets face it we live in a world where in a controlled environment like a school or hospital DRB checked members of staff are not permitted to take personal phones just in case this sort of thing might happen. Schools have registers of children who must under no circumstances be photographed.

For context I like a bit of photography but rarely takes photos where a person unknown to me is a key aspect of the photo's composition rather than an accidental bystander. When I have taken that sort of shot I have always asked permission first. edit - actually not 100% true - I've taken photos of windsurfers/kite boarders/para gliders from distance with a big telephoto without asking. I'm not sure from your explanation where the children might have featured in your shots - where you taking photos of the lights with no human in frame or was it more a photo of a whole merry go round with riders on it or more close up of an individual child on a merry go round?

Where does your 'moral compass' put your limit on what should be reasonable? Would you want to be able to go to a local park (without a child of your own present) and take photos of kids enjoying themselves. What about the same at a beech or local open air pool?

Yeah because I'm a bloke it's less of a prolem and you're OK with it.

Assaults, including rape, are always about power. This situation was no different. Why does my gender mean your reaction is 'mtfu'?

Sexism, innit.

Take the Hasselblad next time GT, let them try and figure out how to delete the pics!

and here we have it turn into a mans right thread[ we are soooooo oppressed]

yes it was unpleasant but it was nothing like being raped and it was not really an expression of power or how weak and helpless men are

You do like to see the world as men being oppressed for some reason that facts dont support and now you will transform an encounter with some nobbers into a mans right issue where women oppressed you 🙄

included them shoving me. It ended because I walked away; I backed down in the face of hate and aggression and hostility (and a little fear – the bokes were starting to take an interest and while I could probably handle one on one, I’m too out of shape to be more aggressive).

Assaults, including rape, are always about power. This situation was no different. Why does my gender mean your reaction is 'mtfu'?

Simply because from your own admission, you weren't afraid of the 4 women. It was the "blokes" that caused any fear.

The 4 women didn't have any real power over you. If you had to it's very likely you could physically defended yourself against 4 "average" women if you had to.

and while I could probably handle one on one,

So you are confident in exerting violence against one man but are comparing getting "shoved" by a woman with rape? 🙄

Lets face it we live in a world where in a controlled environment like a school or hospital DRB checked members of staff are not permitted to take personal phones just in case this sort of thing might happen.

Although far more controlled, the children there are far more vulnerable to exploitation. The same is true in other scenarios like schools and sports coaching, although perhaps to a lesser extent.

Checks are a very crude gateway, they tell you little of value in over 90% of cases. The only thing a check flags up is really if you have known history. Managing risk and having rules around conduct in particular situations is at the core of child protection.

Where does your 'moral compass' put your limit on what should be reasonable? Would you want to be able to go to a local park (without a child of your own present) and take photos of kids enjoying themselves. What about the same at a beech or local open air pool?

So no photos anywhere children might be? No photos of your own kids anywhere like the above because you might capture another child in the same image?

yes it was unpleasant but it was nothing like being raped

4 times Junky??????

So you are confident in exerting violence against one man but are comparing getting "shoved" by a woman with rape?

The way I read it, he was comparing getting shoved with assault, not being raped.

So no photos anywhere children might be? No photos of your own kids anywhere like the above because you might capture another child in the same image?

It was a question, not a statement of what I think reasonable or unreasonable. Would you personally be happy that it should be socially acceptable to go to the beech and take photos of kids (not your own - you are there alone) splashing around in the water without the permission of the parents? I'm not prejudging your response - just interesting in a range of views of what should be ok.

Wobbliscott, I hope you pick on someone who stands up to you. Would a warning from the police temper your aggressive behaviour?

The way I read it, he was comparing getting shoved with assault, not being raped.

I disagree.

It's the same thing a 'slut shaming' or saying 'what did you expect was going to happen, you were drunk, dressed like a slut and in a bad neighbourhood on your own late at night?'

That's a vile line of reasoning and while my situation is different, it is the exact same logic.

My other parallels are contentious I grant you, but since I was technically assaulted it's not quite the stretch in comparison you suggest. Ultimately their reaction was based prejudice and power.

Taking about power. The 4 women didn't really have the physical power to harm him.

I did wonder when the thread would head in the direction of "men's rights".

Would you personally be happy to go to the beech and take photos of kids (not your own - you are there alone) splashing around in the water?

There are 2 different things here, taking photos of a scene that might have kids in it and purposely taking photos of kids for nefarious purposes.

Unless you have any evidence to believe it's the latter you need to assume it's the former. Otherwise we're into paranoia, assumptions of guilt and ridiculous scenes like the one the OP found himself in.

There are 2 different things here, taking photos of a scene that might have kids in it and purposely taking photos of kids for nefarious purposes.

Unless you have any evidence to believe it's the latter you need to assume it's the former. Otherwise we're into paranoia, assumptions of guilt and ridiculous scenes like the one the OP found himself in.

You too have not actually answered the question - from the context of the person taking the photos rather than a bystander or parent of said child. Would you personally be happy to go to the beach and take photos of kids (not your own - you are there alone) splashing around in the water?

I also don't agree there are only your two options. You could take a photo of the whole beach with the kids as comparative specks effectively incidental. You could also take a photo of a kid or small number of kids splashing around where the kids are the primary element of the composition and the beach/sea is the backdrop [b]without [/b]it being nefarious. It might just not be socially acceptable to some to take it without the the permission of the parent (or you being the parent).

edit - two photos from google for context
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

You too have not actually answered the question -

And you've missed my point.

I'd quite happily take photos of a beach scene with other people's kids in them. Photos of individuals is a different matter.

Sorry to hear about that OP I'd have rang plod.

I was asked once to take photos of a flyball training session (dogs) in Heaton Park (Greater Manchester).

I was in the park out side the training area with a longish lens. Started shooting a woman came across and asked what I was doing I told her I was asked to take photos of the dogs by a member of her club she told me I can't do that as it's like taking photos of kids!!! 😯

I told her I could, next min her and her mate came across and stood in the training area directly in front of me. I moved they moved.

I went home next day their club member rang me asked how I'd got on had I got many of her dog etc..
I explained the situation and they could not believe it themselves.I told them I would not be back. Ever.

And just for the keyboard warriors here you can take a photo of ANYONE in a public place so long as you do not use the photo for commercial gain (as you would need a model release).

An no one except the courts (with a court order) can have you photos deleted not even the police.

convert

You too have not actually answered the question - from the context of the person taking the photos rather than a bystander or parent of said child. Would you personally be happy to go to the beech and take photos of kids (not your own - you are there alone) splashing around in the water?

I certainly wouldn't. And it's an interesting question. We've deviated from the incident in the op now though.

Had my daughter's birthday party recently at a recently opened venue, they asked if they could take photos and use them on their website and facebook page to promote the venue, which we agreed to. It was still necessary to get the parents of all the children present to sign a consent form, one parent refused so photographer didn't use her on any of publicity shots. I later found out it was because the child's father was a wrong un, and they were in a witness protection type scheme so didn't want kid's photo on public websites.

Not saying this was what happened on OPs situation, but could be they had a more valid reason they didn't want kids being photographed.

the general populous have decreed that people walking around in public talking photos that might contain images of children without the consent of their parents is not socially acceptable.

Not quite, if your kids are in the frame too then it's seen as fine. I've taken photos in loads of places where random kids are in the frame, never been challenged. We live in an increasingly negative world where bad news sells and ignorance breeds hate. Doomed.

Have we considered that maybe the OP simply looks like a paedophile, hence the incident in the first place? 😕

Anyone who moderates their photographing behaviour due to the modern climate of fear and paranoia is complicit in maintaining that stupidity.
Go out and take photos if you want to help, I'm off to snap wobbliscott's kids in an effort to make the world a better place.