[Closed] Social distancing on aircraft ?

I'm not getting on one until I've had the jab

I thought the air was filtered and actually pretty clean so I suppose if you can stagger the seating (no middle seat passenger, or maybe one row per family group?), not let people people squeeze past and come up with a better way of boarding that avoids the chaos of locker loading then it might be possible. Not 100% but its all about reduction of risk, not eradication.

In the future* you likely won't get onto a plane until your implantable chip containing your biological passport declares you fit to fly.

*next week

I'm making some assumptions here, and am willing to be shot down!.

CV19 is not airborne (obvious exceptions are sneezing and coughing in vicinity of others, obviously) so won't pass around via air con, or most offices in the country would be the same.

I don't think missing out the middle seat is a goer tbh, this means you're about 50cm from person in same row, and probably even less between aisles.

So, if we limited to one person for every 3 seats, I'm not sure airlines would bother, unless you pay 3x the price of a ticket, as it won't be cost effective to them anyway.

They are not the germ boxes that you might think, air is filtered pretty rapidly and viruses are removed, I’ve flown upwards of 100 times in the last 2 years, had one cold I think and no other illnesses, don’t cough without covering mouth, don’t touch face.

No, planes = death.

(Hopefully everyone would take that chain of thought so I can have a plane all to myself).

On a more serious note, as Nobeer says its not airbourne so you'd only get infected if someone decided to cough and sneeze all over you/infect something and you pick it up and lick your hands afterwards, the droplets are too large to be picked up and carried around.

Theres going to be a lot of fear even once lockdown measures are reduced and in some instances rightly so, the fear will help reduce the level of transmission to a degree.

I'd go on a plane so long as theres controls in place to seriously minimise transmission or health screening such as testing passengers prior to getting on the plan.

So, if we limited to one person for every 3 seats, I’m not sure airlines would bother, unless you pay 3x the price of a ticket, as it won’t be cost effective to them anyway.

That's the problem isn't it? If you offer people the choice of not flying, paying 9x the price (if you want 3 seats in every direction) or squeezing in and taking a chance then quite a few will opt for the last one or be angry if only the first two are available. What we really need is measures at each end that reduce the risk of infected people travelling in the first place, then spreading the virus if they do travel.

So, if we limited to one person for every 3 seats, I’m not sure airlines would bother, unless you pay 3x the price of a ticket, as it won’t be cost effective to them anyway.

I think this is probably going to be the reality.

The interesting thing will be will the airlines remain shut or will they re-open and basically say it's your funeral. If you're fit and healthy and you trust everyone else to be fit and healthy or you've had a vaccine or antibodies are shown to offer immunity then crack on, otherwise how much do you really want to be present in that meeting................

Even under normal conditions, ALL cabin air is entirely replaced every 2 mins and when doing so is passed through 2 high energy particle filters in series. Under extreme conditions, air cycling can be dramatically increased, but this decreases the air temperature as more outside air is needed to cycle the system and it places increased demands on the air conditioners, requiring more fuel. This decrease in temperature is also a good thing (apart from a comfort point of view) as warm air holds more moisture than cold air and thus can hold suspended mucus particles better, thus cold air is better.

Plans are afoot to change cabin materials to make them self-disinfecting and to decrease the centrality of the air movement systems in the cabin to dramatically increase the rate at which air from a passengers mouth is evacuated from the cabin. The target is <5 seconds for air evacuation and <30 mins for surface decontamination without active intervention.

@daffy, don't come in here with your well-reasoned and articulated responses. We want STW arguments!

Surface contamination is still likely to be an issue. Maybe the longest flights will be dictated by the capacity of the human bladder.

Aircraft are MUCH safer (in viral terms) than buses, trains and cruise ships as they have forced, positive pressure ventilation of filtered air, everywhere. The systems are designed to make sure that all areas of the aircraft receive fresh air within a fixed period. The problem is that the perceived risk is still high and we (Airbus) must do everything possible to further reduce both the real and perceived risk, by adapting the aircraft and demonstrating to the public that the Aircraft is safe.

But, and as highlighted above, the real problem is at either end. Are you virus free when you leave? Are you Virus free when you return...how do you know? 100000 tests a day wouldn't come close to meeting passenger demand if air travel were at full strength.

As for proper social distancing in either the short or long term. The former is, potentially feasible by checkerboarding the cabin seating and charging more, but is everyone essentially willing to pay business class pricing? In the longer term, assuming that 75% of previous travelers are willing to pay the cost, we'd need 25-30% MORE aircraft...

Nick
Subscriber
They are not the germ boxes that you might think, air is filtered pretty rapidly and viruses are removed

Daffy
Subscriber
Even under normal conditions, ALL cabin air is entirely replaced every 2 mins and when doing so is passed through 2 high energy particle filters in series

really, never knew that i thought it was pretty much basic hepa type filters and that's it, which wont get rid of a virus hepa will remove 0.3micron and the covid is 0.125micron.

That aside, i fly quite a lot with work, and it's only when i've recently been on a short haul fliht that i might feel a bit groggy for my 1-2 times a year man illness.

side note, does anyone else get a massive amount of dry bogies on planes?

scotroutes
Subscriber
Surface contamination is still likely to be an issue. Maybe the longest flights will be dictated by the capacity of the human bladder.

As above - plans are afoot to replace cabin materials and systems to make them self-disinfecting. The problem is cost and weight. The new materials cannot be significantly more costly either directly or in terms of performance (weight, maintenance, etc) or airlines simply won't buy them, they'll run the risk instead. Wherever possible, Airbus want the new systems/materials to be a non-optional part of the aircraft in order to increase the resilience of the industry at a fundamental level, outside the purview of the bean counters.

We obviously cannot do anything about the virus itself or lockdowns and their effects on travel, but we can try to ensure a safe return to flight operations at the earliest opportunity with a public which is confident in the aircraft as a safe place to be.

and to convince the public that the Aircraft is safe.

I kinds hope that this is a turning point and businesses stop trying to be present in every meeting.

I've sat through bid presentations where the contractor's turned up mob handed with 40+ people and TBH all the breakout meetings they generated/attended could have been resolved remotely. There's just a culture among sales/marketing that they have to be present and that more people being present is better. And each one then thinks they have to be there otherwise they're not as important as the next one so no one want's to be the one who dials in on skype.

Thanks daffy that's really useful. I am waiting to fly so following with interest. A mate of mine has limited immunity so always wore a face mask on cheap flights, now I see him as a bit of a pioneer. Any testing pre and post flight would need to be replicated on buses and trains, seems a bit pointless getting off a clean plane and onto a packed train.

side note, does anyone else get a massive amount of dry bogies on planes?

The air on an aircraft is heavily conditioned and has incredibly low humidity in order to protect the both the passengers and the aircraft itself.

Surface contamination is still likely to be an issue

Let's all queue up at the security checkpoints for our turn to touch those lovely trays while piling our belongings into them. Ooh, and maybe a patdown from the guy that has touched dozens of people before your turn.

thisisnotaspoon
Subscriber

I kinds hope that this is a turning point and businesses stop trying to be present in every meeting.

I genuinely believe that it will be. I honestly believe that 50-80% of business travel will no longer happen, at least for the next 3-5 years. Businesses will point to the fact that they saved $$$ and were still able to function during this period as a reason to keep travel costs down. BUT, i think the old guard, the higher-ups, will return to form ASAP and slowly, their example will filter down and percolate back into the industry.

The problem for aviation is that for example with BA, over 80% of their revenue is generated from business travel, but accounts for less than 20% of their passengers. This is why many of the older carriers are now in trouble. Ironically, airlines such as Jet2, Thomson and, to a lesser extent Easyjet and Ryanair will recover faster. People still want to travel and many people, regardless of risk are absolutely jonesing for their next holiday.

AFAIK The Air quality on aircraft is generally crap, but it's a cost saving measure. They can make it better, it just costs more fuel. It's said that the air quality has gotten worse since they banned smoking because it gave them an opportunity to save money.

Again, I'm no expert but to ensure the same sort of social distancing they're aiming for in super markets on a low-cost flight they'd need to give each passenger (or each couple) their own row of seats and leave the row in front and behind empty. It would also mean it could take 5x as long to load and unload a 3rd of the passengers they can now. They'd also have to somehow enforce everyone actually stays in their seat when it lands.

I can't see it being financially viable to run aircraft like that, not unless we're all willing to pay 3x the current cost, it would be cheaper to cancel and refund flight instead of burning the fuel.

I think the way the wind is blowing they'll come up with new processes - I suspect they'll screen temps / symptoms in the airport and provide gloves and face masks for passengers. The science will be vague because there isn't any other kind at the moment and passengers will have to decide if the risks are worth it.

Let’s all queue up at the security checkpoints for our turn to touch those lovely trays while piling our belongings into them. Ooh, and maybe a patdown from the guy that has touched dozens of people before your turn.

The supermarkets seem to be able to keep trolleys safe by spraying them between use, I'm sure airports can manage.

I genuinely believe that it will be. I honestly believe that 50-80% of business travel will no longer happen,

Agreed, Business Travel has been in the decline for decades. Massive sweeping statement, but it's only the old boys in sales now who want to "see the whites of their eyes" and they're slowly retiring. Most of the reps who used to drop in on us for a "cuppa and a chat" don't bother anymore. I spend about £200k a month with various suppliers, there's only 1 that wants to send a Rep in, and he's a pain. I've got Reps in the US, India, Japan and Malaysia. As much as I'd like to, I'm not flying off to Miami for a couple of Days, down to Las Vegas for a conference and them onto Malaysia for a meeting. I'm sat in Drizzly Wales with my fake ultra chic apartment background.

The work we've done with clients over the last 7 weeks won't be in vain when lock-down ends. The move to video conferencing was glacial before Covid, then rapid. I don't see many managers signing off hundreds in expenses and hours lost in travel time again.

I'll go as far as getting the channel tunnel train using a contactless system... but anything that involves other humans in close proximity, nah, not for me thanks.

Interesting point about business travel being massively reduced. So does that mean HS2 should stop and the funds diverted to more pressing needs?

I’ll go as far as getting the channel tunnel train using a contactless system… but anything that involves other humans in close proximity, nah, not for me thanks.

That's our thoughts. Although we've been exposed to Covid at home and had very mild symptoms.

So does that mean HS2 should stop and the funds diverted to more pressing needs?

And the new runway at Heathrow? Or will that still go ahead 'to be ready when flying returns'.

Interesting point about business travel being massively reduced. So does that mean HS2 should stop and the funds diverted to more pressing needs?

Possibly worth a post-Covid review. It's become a political thing though so who knows.

London may be the biggest loser in all this. Post Credit Crunch a lot of large employers closed their London HQs and moved out of the city, but still stayed within commuting distance (the the standard of a hellish London commute) to keep their workforce.

Large cities might start looking very old fashioned soon.

Maybe the answer is for combined passenger/cargo flights with more emphasis on heavy cargo so the lighter humans can occupy more volume.

I stopped flying because I find it's excruciating being locked into a cramped seat for hours on end, so more space for passengers would be a good thing.

I'd be more worried about the terminal environment.

As flight crew, I'm painfully aware of the impact on the industry, however screening at departure is probably too late if you've already sneezed on someone.

IMHO Quarantine is needed for everyone, including crew if you want air travel to continue.

So either you accept flights are going to be minimal/freight only, or you have to accept your holiday will be +2 weeks and that you'll have to employ lots of crew. And they're not going to do that right now.

So, basically air travel is screwed until vaccine available and antibody screening widely available.

Just my opinion.

I would imagine that the biggest risk with air travel is all the stuff you end up touching in the airport, because of the numbers of people from all over the world who've also touched them. That, and as said, the time you spend at your destination.

Interesting point about business travel being massively reduced. So does that mean HS2 should stop and the funds diverted to more pressing needs?

I dunno, that sort of infrastructure has always been a very long term thing. And I can see the arguments now.....................

"You're not going to commute as much you don't need a train. But we still want the money spent on the trans Pennine links instead because............... reasons".

"And you won't be flying so you can scrap that 3rd Heathrow runway. But we want Leeds to have an international hub airport so we want it there"

Maybe the answer is for combined passenger/cargo flights with more emphasis on heavy cargo so the lighter humans can occupy more volume.

Most passenger flights only use 20% of the cargo capacity for actual passenger baggage, the other 80% is commercial cargo to supplement the cost of the flight.

To answer the OP's question; social distancing is theoretically possible on planes but passenger capacities will be massively reduced - using the same modelling as the Pub & Beer Association have done based on finite space and 2mtr spacing in all directions, the reduction will be c70%.
Progress through airports will become even slower; too many surfaces to clean properly; reduced demand - both business and leisure.
Airlines will have no choice other than significant price hikes which will, in turn , further dampen demand.
Will be another sector to exemplify Warren Buffet....it's only when the tide goes out you see who's being swimming naked.

Dahhhhh. Having spent £5k on EZY and Jet2 shares this morning, this thread is making me very uneasy 🙂

using the same modelling as the Pub & Beer Association have done based on finite space and 2mtr spacing in all directions, the reduction will be c70%.

Surprised it's not reduced more than that TBH. If you think how crammed in people are in the security queue etc.
In smaller airports the scrum when the plane arrives already spills over into adjacent gates, suddenly that becomes a queue 1-200 metres long.

The more this gets thought through and the more I see the statistics the more I think that long term social distancing is just a non starter. I think I would be more in favour of locking down and locking down hard all those who are properly vulnerable and the rest of us going back to life as was as far as possible. So everyone over the national retirement age and everyone with a medical condition (you could argue that includes obesity) stays properly out of reach and there rest of us do the graft like worker bees. Those of us statistically most robust just have to take our chances (there will be casualties) plus also take a hit (either financial or voluntary work) to support those locked down.

Schools, transport, many forms of work - I just don't see social distancing being the solution.

AFAIK The Air quality on aircraft is generally crap, but it’s a cost saving measure. They can make it better, it just costs more fuel. It’s said that the air quality has gotten worse since they banned smoking because it gave them an opportunity to save money.

Just incorrect on every level i'm afraid.

The air in the cabin is recirculated and very highly filtered so clean as anything.

Air is dryer on an aircraft as the aircraft is pressurised to a higher altitude than sea level - typically 8,000 ft altitude or 6,000ft on the latest generation of aircraft. Lower pressure air contains less moisture so yes, especially on the aircraft pressurised to 8k ft the air does feel dry and a lot of the feeling of 'crapness' you get on long haul flights is due to that (and most people don't sleep well and probably have a few too many drinks).

The air is pressurised to relive stresses on the airframe and an increase fatigue life of the airframe. Modern aircraft are pressurised to lower altitudes due to use of carbon fibre which has no fatigue life, so can improve the comfort for passengers. At 6k feet altitude the density of the air is near as makes no difference the same as at sea level as far as we can tell.

So nothing to do with saving money..the systems on the aircraft remain unchanged since the days of smoking so no fiddling with the system to 'worsen the air quality' after smoking ban to save money.

You're safer on the aircraft with social distancing in place than you are in the airport terminal or on the train or bus going to the airport if that is the transport you take to the airport.

The ticket price is clearly a challenge. Airlines made bugger all money even when they were filling aircraft, so some pretty heavy duty government support is going to be needed. Most of the global air freight is transported as under-belly freight on passenger aircraft, so important for global trade to get aircraft flying and prices of all goods on our shelves. so likely passenger tickets will go up and the price of air freight so higher prices in the shops for all.

Dahhhhh. Having spent £5k on EZY and Jet2 shares this morning, this thread is making me very uneasy 🙂

brave move! there's going to be some airlines going bust as a result of this. EZY will prob be ok, not too sure about jet2.

After escaping the ship by helicopter, 16 of us had this to ourselves for our flight from Guyana to LHR...
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Still no upgrade, all in economy due to weight distribution, premium too small for us to be suitably distanced, and business used by the alternate crew who were getting rest.

Special charter flight arranged by the company who are hiring the ship.

really, never knew that i thought it was pretty much basic hepa type filters and that’s it, which wont get rid of a virus hepa will remove 0.3micron and the covid is 0.125micron.

Both Airbus and Boeing say that the HEPA filters in their aircraft will remove COVID-19. Airflow is from ceiling to floor, vertically, and is then either dumped into the cargo holds to be vented overboard or passed back through the filters. If you're going to catch a virus from a flight it's either going to be from the person sat directly next to you or across the aisle, or from a surface you touch.

Airbus say that a 0.3 micron filter is, for some reason, better at catching virus particles.

Pre-departure screening via swab or finger-prick test is the way to go in this, assuming that a test becomes available that can deliver reasonably accurate results in a short time.

All interesting stuff.

So being on the aircraft itself may not be too bad.

Getting on to the aircraft itself may be interesting.

The economics don’t stack up in any way.

Hopefully it will mean reduced flights in the future

The airlines will be fine, just not the staff. It is no longer a Covid crisis, but an opportunity to smash what Ts&Cs were still remaining.