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There’s an actual cost of living crisis out there to be dealt with.
Well said kimbers.
When do you think the Labour leadership will mount an effective opposition, offer credible alternatives, and stand shoulder to shoulder with those fighting to defend their living standards?
It’s amazing to me that so called sensible left-centrists are now preaching the Sunak mantra of austerity, just like their sensible bannerman Starmer. Have you guys not worked this out yet? People have figured out the scam that is is neoliberal trickle up economics. They now want a slice of the same pie that the rich have been gouging on for the past 40 years. Including it seems a majority of tory grassroots members and their prospective new leader.
It’s not about the total borrowed… it’s about what the money is spent on. It’s not about the total tax take… it’s about who pays the tax. Truss will not invest in your area, your schools, your hospitals… and if you think she will… you’re a mug. Again. This is just Johnson again. No change. “Tax cutting” while putting up your taxes. “Investing” while pulling the plug on investment in your area. Yes, there is a good chance the voters will fall for exactly the same kind of “levelling” up lies again… but don’t give it credence yourselves… wake up. It’s a con so obvious she may as well have “CON” tattooed across her forehead.
and if you think she will… you’re a mug.
Don’t be ridiculous. Neither me or anyone else on ‘the left’ thinks she will. We’re talking about getting elected, something which centrists are supposed to be experts at. Yet the people preaching good sensible centrism like starmer and sunak are unpopular, and those willing to question the dogma of a failed economic system (even if they don’t believe it it) are reaping the rewards. If you think starmer will beat truss with his Scrooge act when sunak can’t you’re in fantasyland.
What was I saying a day or two ago about Truss being the best British PM Scotland could wish for, and the reaction from the crowd of Tory fascist acolytes is just the cherry on top.
https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1554190178146828288?s=21&t=LyKHuktQP7ETaGayCcAdKg
Jesus, if you think what Sunak has been saying in his leadership campaign makes him a centrist, no wonder you use term the way you do, as disparagingly as you do, as often as you do. Both of these Tory hopefuls are pushing hard on the right wing buttons of their membership.
The Tories will win again if their new lies can successfully help people forget their last lot of lies. Again. Which, lets face it, you’d be crazy to bet against. I think we can agree on that.
Actually no, centrist was the wrong word. Both he and starmer are neoliberalists. Two sides of the same shit coin that has failed people for 40 years. It’s so f***ing obvious even many traditional tories can see it.
Liz Truss says she would "just ignore" the democratically-elected leader of the second largest nation in the United Kingdom
+
https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1554196629078642693?s=21
Liz Truss is going to do it, they're all falling in line, who'd have thought we'd have a serious lightweight like Truss as our PM, it beggars belief.
As for all the neolibertarian or whatever the bands name is, god it's honestly getting boring, you hate the tories, we get it, you hate Starmer and his Labour even more, we get that in bucketloads as well, keep whinging away without any thought of a solution, other than magic money tree, sorry i mean modern monetary theory, as used to great effect by so many nations around the world.
It’s so f***ing obvious even many traditional tories can see it.
Which ones? Who? What have they said? You can’t mean Truss. She will offer the common person nothing of substance while PM, and will turbo charge “neoliberalism” not pull the plug on it, or even seek to restrain it and protect the public from its harms. More deregulation of the private sector and defunding of the public sector is coming. Don’t cheer its coming because Truss promises you anything and everything. She’s lying.
Don’t cheer its coming because Truss promises you anything and everything.
Jeez you’ve completely missed my point. Which is weird because it’s not exactly complicated. Centrist establishment politics will never beat populists like Johnson and Truss. Trust in establishment politics and politicians has disappeared across the political spectrum. Even the f***ing tories don’t believe in it any more! If you want rid of truss, the answer isn’t Starmer or his pathetic band of shadow cabinet cowards.
keep whinging away without any thought of a solution
Is that a sly dig at Starmer?
He says that the pandemic has changed everything and that is why at the moment he only has a "clean slate".
I really think we need a multi party coalition of 3 or 4 parties, not including the conservatives.
Labour are a bunch of tossers just as much as the Conservatives are.
Until that utterly predictable status quo is broken, we're pretty much doomed as a country.
keep whinging away without any thought of a solution,
To quote a famous scientist the definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different outcome. Do you honestly believe that any of our mainstream politicians have the answers to the problems they themselves caused?
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-31-july-2022/
The Tories will undoubtedly be very pleased with the latest opinion poll. Not only do they appear to be closing the gap with Labour but at 4% the Labour lead is rather less than might be reasonably expected in the mid-term of a general election cycle.
the electorate is clearly enjoying this lurch to the right.
More cuts and austerity promised by Truss. Targeted outside the South East… (quelle surprise)…
other than magic money tree, sorry i mean modern monetary theory, as used to great effect by so many nations around the world.
You can't really make that point with your level of understanding here.
It's not used to great effect - it's a description of the monetary system.
It's been like it for 40 years.
As for all the neolibertarian or whatever the bands name is, god it’s honestly getting boring, you hate the tories, we get it, you hate Starmer and his Labour even more, we get that in bucketloads as well, keep whinging away without any thought of a solution, other than magic money tree, sorry i mean modern monetary theory, as used to great effect by so many nations around the world.
Your larger point here it to misunderstanding the role of the state and how it gets is cash.
Centrists and liberals will never understand that if they want a better society neoliberalism is not going to do it.
By definition it can't because the state needs to put the cash in.
Call it boring but it's how it works.
Currently in the USA the democrats are celebrating tightening government budgets and suprise suprise they're in recession.
One minute it's about electability and Centrism and doing nothing; is the path to victory, then when the Tories turn a corner and more or less over night turn some of the polling around - Truss is a despicable populist for offering stuff up to a her voters!
Meanwhile what's Starmer doing - sacking Tarry and offering nothing to his Labour supporters when they most need it.
It's embarrassing that this is all about how bad the Tories are for being successful and not how shit Starmer is especially when his core voters are desperate.
Who's really putting the brakes on here?
The Tories will undoubtedly be very pleased with the latest opinion poll. Not only do they appear to be closing the gap with Labour but at 4% the Labour lead is rather less than might be reasonably expected in the mid-term of a general election cycle
The whole cycle is going to reset again for the Tories.
There will be bumps for sure though but our man Starmer doesn't want to seize these it appear.
Establishment wants both political parties.
Truss promising to cut every kind of tax there is: VAT, green levy, corporation tax, fuel duty, and slash the civil service , whilst simultaneously boosting police numbers, fixing the NHS, fix the courts, move faster on new nuclear than Johnson (who was already promising the impossible) unleash farming by slashing regulations, superboost the economy….
Yes it's not exactly well thought out and there is danger of more inflation but tax cuts (because she won't tax the rich) plus spending would probably grow the economy.
Every political heavy weight of both sides wants growth.
As excited as some are about that redfield poll
One from 6 hrs earlier had them 14pts ahead
Until Truss is PM you won't be able to read much into them
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1554070388396769280?t=mq8UVyrlutPnYW5oXHJTNQ&s=19
Truss will have a honeymoon period, for how long is anyones guess
Truss will have a honeymoon period, for how long is anyones guess
Until she shuts down at the first difficult question and needs rebooting.
Well she’s very good at rebooting, and coming back online with whatever new message is required of her. What about her “delivery” though…? The trade deals that we have “gained” under her are looking pretty beneficial to those based in the partner countries, with little gain for those based here.
A little check of my understanding of Liz's policies from the last couple of days:
- ignore NI, Scotland and Wales.
- save £11bn on civil servant salary costs of £9bn
- save the civil servant budget by reducing salaries in NHS, schools etc outside of central London.
- level up the region's by reducing investment there.
- tax cuts that only favour middle and high earners
- business profit takes priority over environmental protection or climate change reduction.
- allow forrin workers on, but only for the crappy jobs and temporarily.
- any student getting A* at A-level to be encouraged to Oxbridge.
And they are all policies I hold the polar opposite view on.
There’s an actual cost of living crisis out there to be dealt with.
But as long as it doesn't really impact the folk who'll vote Tory, they'll ignore it, or at least only respond with words.
I'd love to see a Labour, Lib Dem, Green Coalition - proportional representation here we come.
I’d love to see a Labour, Lib Dem, Green Coalition
Never going to happen. Labour think they can 'win' alone and keep all the pennies for themselves, just like the Tories. Shameful really, but that's what we've got.
Well, its up to voters to return the right make up of MPs to force cooperation onto Labour. The current voting system is ripe for this… use it to return more LibDem and Green MPs in the regions where support for them is strong, we need fewer Tory MPs first and foremost. With the success of the SNP in Scotland, another large Labour majority is just a pipe dream. If you want LibDem and Green influence in parliament help get them more MPs. If there are more of them in there pushing for PR, there’s more chance of getting it… many Labour members will be pushing their MPs as well.
And they are all policies I hold the polar opposite view on.
Tbf her plans to save £11bn from civil service cuts by slashing pay and reducing holiday allowance are about as likely to happen as me having a threesome with Katy Perry & Beyonce
This kind of cakeism had a short lifespan for Johnson
It will be genuinely interesting to see how Truss deals with the complete failure to deliver a single of her pledges once PM- it's not actually a GE, so technically she's only lying to the Tory membership
And they are all policies I hold the polar opposite view on.
Both candidates are saying things to a very small and particular set of constituents. I think you'd get evens at a bookies about either 1. how much they personally even believe what they're saying, or 2 whether any of it survives a couple of days in office.
making these "policies/offers/claims/brainfarts" as the favourite to win is insane, hang onto to your hats for the next 2 years. You can understand it from Sunak.
I’m not so sure… this “small state” stuff, especially the “why should public sector workers get paid a reasonable income, and get reasonably conditions, when my job/pension doesn’t get me either” side of things does play well with a certain kind of voter. Yes, many voters will cringe at it… but do they vote Tory anyway?
Politicians in the North will use it to try and win some people over though (and rightly so, the Tory policy of “levelling up” was always just smoke and mirrors)…
https://twitter.com/andyburnhamgm/status/1554236495275462657?s=21
As excited as some are about that redfield poll
One from 6 hrs earlier had them 14pts ahead
Did you read what you posted? It very clearly said "but there's a catch". The catch is that a large proportion of Tory voters are currently undecided, which isn't entirely surprising given that the Tories don't have a permanent leader at the moment.
It doesn't mean that if there was a general election tomorrow they won't be voting Tory. Other pollsters make an allowance for that fact, Opinium certainly do as they have publicly stated that they do.
Yup I saw that, but as Truss's leadership campaign seems to be writing labours attack ads for them; yesterday it was a gift to the SNP too (sturgeon is an attention seeker she will ignore), a promise to remove food standards & level down the north
I'm not sure she's the threat you think she is.
I’d love to see a Labour, Lib Dem, Green Coalition – proportional representation here we come.
Without the SNP's seats they'll never get a working majority, just a working minority and only the Greens will sign up to Scottish independence.
To be clear, the SNP are unlikely to vote against the vast majority of a left/centre coalitions policies - especially any that mean we'll move back towards working with the EU.
we need fewer Tory MPs first and foremost
On that you are absolutely correct. If all of the other parties, including SNP, Greens, Lib etc. could find common ground on that specific subject, even just once, then it might just change things for the better. I just do not believe there is any appetite within the PLP to ever do so, and without Labour everyone else is just weeing in the wind.
It doesn’t mean that if there was a general election tomorrow they won’t be voting Tory.
Yep, as the saying goes, which is very true where I live, "they would vote for a pig if it had blue rosette on it".
Both candidates are saying things to a very small and particular set of constituents. I think you’d get evens at a bookies about either 1. how much they personally even believe what they’re saying, or 2 whether any of it survives a couple of days in office.
While I agree with your points, it still worries me that people with these ideals will be in charge or influencing policy and decisions that directly affect me.
1. how much they personally even believe what they’re saying, or 2 whether any of it survives a couple of days in office.
It's interesting and not a little significant that given the messaging from the two candidates, the tory selectorate, a supposedly uber-right wing, reactionary, establishment supporting group of people, are supporting the candidate preaching a classicly Keynsesian economic solution. Sunak is doing his best with his Thatcherite austerity and balancing the books rhetoric, but it's falling on deaf ears. Instead the tories are opting for the candidate proposing to increase debt and boost spending, which is pretty shocking.
You'd think this would influence Starmer's strategy, it's a gift to a party which is Keynesian to it's core. Yet their response is to support the message of the losing tory candidate, which not only further enrages the left but apparently will also lose them many of the tory votes they're chasing. Nice one Keir!
And now Truss appears to be advocating public sector pay cuts outside the SE .
Labour called her plan "a fantasy recipe for levelling down".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62390009
Yup, she wants austerity for us, tax cuts and lucrative contracts for them.
the candidate preaching a classicly Keynsesian economic solution
Take a step back. Look at everything she is saying. Don’t pick out your favourite phrases and consider them a direction of policy… it’s just more of the same. Promise investment to areas that need it… and then direct funds away from them. It’s just Johnson mk2. Let’s hope she doesn’t pull off the big lie again.
it still worries me that people with these ideals will be in charge or influencing policy and decisions that directly affect me.
You remember the bus with the £350 million slogan on the side..? These folks will say anything to the people that they need the votes of. There's no evidence at all that anything they say is believable, or doable or what they'll do. I mean Truss announces £8.8bn savings for the civil service, turns out the bill for the civil service is about £9bn. It's just nonsense. They're literally just saying the thing they think will get them what they want.
Which big lie? So many to choose from.
Anyway, why not cut the pay in the north, those Surry Pensioners don't need the north, it's just an embarrassing bit of brownfield wasteland they'd rather forget about; less money for the north equals more money for the oldies of the south.
I'm not sure how Truss's dedication to the union squares with her view that the person who the majority of Scots voted for is simply an attention seeker who should be ignored.
You remember the bus with the £350 million slogan on the side..? These folks will say anything to the people that they need the votes of. There’s no evidence at all that anything they say is believable, or doable or what they’ll do. I mean Truss announces £8.8bn savings for the civil service, turns out the bill for the civil service is about £9bn. It’s just nonsense. They’re literally just saying the thing they think will get them what they want.
Truss is preaching to her congregation that is the Tory party members, these aren't your casual 'i'll vote tory because....', they are paid up members of tory values, so not exactly centrists or even soft right, most will be your true blue xenophobic brigade.
As for any bonfire of the civil service, the reality of this and any government is that you have 650 MPs sat in parliament, doing nothing that productive, it's the civil service at their departments, at parliament, at their constituencies and so on that are actually doing stuff, and in most instances, the Permanent Under Secretaries and so on are effectively running things. Remove that, and you're left with what could be the live production of Idiocracy 😂
And now Truss appears to be advocating public sector pay cuts outside the SE .
Blurgh - not pleasant is it.
It's worth reminding ourselves that this is an extension of the existing however. I spent 8 years as a state school teacher in Hampshire. At the time it riled me that one friend off the same teacher training course was getting £3K more than me because she was teaching in London and got 'London waiting'. However another went to Humberside and was on the same salary as me but was buying a house within 6 months which was way way out of my reach. Of course if I was going to resolve that I'd have been putting up salaries, rather than cutting them....but I'm not a tory candidate!
I’m not sure how Truss’s dedication to the union squares with her view that the person who the majority of Scots voted for is simply an attention seeker who should be ignored.
Woman desperately seeking attention from affluent, ageing white men in the SE of England in a dystopian, pathetic beauty pageant is calling out a woman for seeking attention. 🤦♂️
Take a step back. Look at everything she is saying.
That's exactly what I'm doing. While you obsess about pointless promises she will never keep, I'm wondering why the tory membership suddenly seem so keen on a prospective leader who says we shouldn't pay back the national debt and instead should borrow more. It should be the exact opposite of that and Sunak should be walking this with his uber-thatcherism.
@dazh - Sunak isn't white, blonde and doesn't wear a low(ish) cut dress hence his message isn't getting through
Yes this really is like a crap version of snog, marry, avoid for old white guys in Kent
on a prospective leader who says we shouldn’t pay back the national debt and instead should borrow more.
That was yesterday's message, today's message is all about cuts and saving money.
It's all made up, it's all just throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks
Take a step back. Look at everything she is saying. Don’t pick out your favourite phrases and consider them a direction of policy… it’s just more of the same.
Simple - she has to look like she's cutting to large swathes of Tories.
You have to be everything to some voters to win. Starmer took the inverse route - be nothing to all voters.
I’m wondering why the tory membership suddenly seem so keen on a prospective leader who says we shouldn’t pay back the national debt and instead should borrow more
Because of her costumes?
Because she’s signed trade deals with the majority white commonwealth countries (don’t look at her department’s own analysis of how bad those deals are for us).
Because she was loyal to Johnson, a solid member of the government (that she now lambastes the failure of).
Oh, and because… tax cuts for the rich.
“Obsessing over promises” - a line to remember.
None of this is any different to Starmer's aborted pledges.
They just do what they do to get elected.
The Starmerites will be happy. Roll on a rerun of the 1981 recession.. 🙄
Why is there so much mention of Starmer in a thread related to the tory party leadership vote, is there a thread on here that he can't end up getting a slagging off on, does he ride an ebike perchance?
,
Why is there so much mention of Starmer in a thread related to the tory party leadership vote
Because the next Tory Party leader will also be the next PM, a job which Starmer is after. Apparently.
Because the next Tory Party leader will also be the next PM, a job which Starmer is after. Apparently.
PM or Tory party leader ?
Genuinely unsure.
Wow Truss's u-turn on pay was pretty quick
I suppose thats something good about her , if you dont like one of her policies. she will do a complete 180 on them pretty quickly!
I still dont believe the Tory membership will be daft enough to put her into No10, Im sure Starmer would much rather her than Sunak, shes just too much of a liability
Im amazed the polls show she has any sort of a chance, but the political world has been completely bonkers for a good few years now
So, what do we reckon she'll do with Sunak? Find him somewhere in the cabinet or stick him out on to the back benches? My guess is that she will give him a medium-important portfolio, like transport secretary or something
So, what do we reckon she’ll do with Sunak? Find him somewhere in the cabinet or stick him out on to the back benches? My guess is that she will give him a medium-important portfolio, like transport secretary or something
Truss will be a car crash. Partly because she is Liz Truss and partly because I have a feeling whomever is in charge from any party in the next 36 months will be in charge of a car crash - it's already skidding and one wheel is off the road.To that end Sunak will probably find a sudden need to sit on the back benches and write a biography of someone...anyone....rather than get smeared with it too ready to be the shiny blue blooded tory boy saviour after the next election.
An aside - very few people on this thread are calling Liz Truss or Rishi Sunak Liz and Rishi. And yet so many of the very same people insisted on calling the current turd in charge 'Boris'. Even people who would have happily whipped his nads off given an opportunity to meet him in person. It riled me massively when he (sort of ) mattered. Everyone who thought he was a **** should have insisted on calling him 'Johnston' and not given in to this fake bon amis that gave the bellend the hooks to claw his way to power. You realise you are partly culpably too don't you?
"rather than get smeared with it too ready to be the shiny blue blooded tory boy saviour after the next election."
He'll still have to get past party membership in order to become leader and that prediction requires the membership having an epiphany with regards their own racism...
Is Truss ‘doing a May’ and putting together an election campaign so catastrophically awful that she could yet snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?
She’s just U-turned on her civil servants pay cut outside London (because it was patently bloody ridiculous) and the latest polling of party members has her down from a 24 point lead to just 5
Glad I cashed by bet out the other day anyway. I had a feeling she might do this. It’s quite a long campaign and seems intent on reminding everyone that she is actually Liz Truss.
So, what do we reckon she’ll do with Sunak?
I wouldnt be surprised if he chose to walk unless he thinks there is a real chance next time round and history doesnt tend to support second placers getting the prize next time round.
Is Truss ‘doing a May’ and putting together an election campaign so catastrophically awful that she could yet snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?
I hink some of the membership are starting to twig just how bad she will be, but thats balanced bya pretty visceral hatred of Sunak for, among other things, 'knifing' their hero Johnson in the back- thats ab0ut 1/3rd of the membership that want him back on the ballot
That gives Sunak the other 66% to work on and point out how bad truss would be
I still think a lot of MPs backing her are doing so in full knowledge that she will be a disaster but feel shes the favourite so they want to get on & get a cabnet position
I reckon the torys are going to get hammered in the next general election - even worse (or better, depending on POV) than 1997.
Is it possible (and if so how) to put a bet on the maximum number of seats the torys will win?
I have no idea about gambling.
I reckon the torys are going to get hammered in the next general election – even worse (or better, depending on POV) than 1997.
Is it possible (and if so how) to put a bet on the maximum number of seats the torys will win?
I have no idea about gambling.
In the 1997 election Labour won 56 seats in Scotland, they currently have 1 Scottish MP.
There will be no landslides for Labour from now on, a landslide in the current climate for Labour would be to have a majority of 1!
As for what happens to Sunak after if he loses, he's gone, Truss has had almost everyone who dislikes him backing her, the reality is if everyone in that inner circle hates him, then he must be doing something that would make him a good candidate for PM!
In the 1997 election Labour won 56 seats in Scotland, they currently have 1 Scottish MP.
There will be no landslides for Labour from now on, a landslide in the current climate for Labour would be to have a majority of 1!
FFS at least do some quick googling before talking bollocks. In the 97 election Labour gained 146 seats, giving them an overrall majority of 179. Take away the 56 seats in Scotland that would still leave a majority of 123, which is still many more than Johnson's 'landslide'. Scotland would clearly make no difference in a 1997 scenario.
Given that the ballots have already been sent put and the membershits are expected to vote early, could we see a situation where Sunak wins the campaign but loses the war because of early voting?
I thought it mad that they were sending out the ballots at the beginning of the hustings process and not the end.
For all we know Truss could have won it already if there's been a lot of returned ballots.
Led by donkeys.
They have put in place some weird process where you can change your mind and vote a second time at the end, cancelling out the vote you’ve already placed. Imagine that. If the old dears and gents have voted for Truss in the early weeks of the campaign, she can still lose those votes… they can simply place another vote if they don’t like what they’ve seen unfold since their first vote. She can still throw this away…
Yep in another 2 fingers to people who predicted that brexit would be crap, Tory members get to vote again on things if they don't like them
I reckon the torys are going to get hammered in the next general election
i think you overestimate the voting public.
i think you overestimate the voting public
I think Truss is capable of delivering that kind of catastrophe for the Tories
Her 2 gaffes so far this week: leveling down on civil servant, nurse, police etc pay & gifting more support to the SNP by insulting sturgeon, just a taster
It also begged the obvious question that if you want to pay all state employees in that way why would you no also reduce the pay for MPs from the provinces?
It was a masterstroke of shit policies. In one stroke it undermined the other main policy (levelling up), alienated every employee of the wider state outside of the South East AND united every provincial politician against it.
"They have put in place some weird process where you can change your mind and vote a second time at the end, cancelling out the vote you’ve already placed"
Just heard on Newsnight that they've 'deleyed' sending out ballots for another week due to some unspecified 'security' issue.. if you believe that.
Perhaps they are worried that members might cast their vote early and then keel over before they get the chance to switch their vote?
dazh
Free Member
In the 1997 election Labour won 56 seats in Scotland, they currently have 1 Scottish MP.There will be no landslides for Labour from now on, a landslide in the current climate for Labour would be to have a majority of 1!
FFS at least do some quick googling before talking bollocks. In the 97 election Labour gained 146 seats, giving them an overrall majority of 179. Take away the 56 seats in Scotland that would still leave a majority of 123, which is still many more than Johnson’s ‘landslide’. Scotland would clearly make no difference in a 1997 scenario.
That's why the second paragraph stated 'current climate', we are not on a crest of 'new' labour sweeping away a dying tory party, labour were meant to win in 1992 and failed, then another 5 years of tory failures and infighting led to a landslide loss, not to mention probably the best party campaign in living memory with 'New' Labour.
Are you saying we're in a similar position to that now, so in 2 years time come a general election we'll have a shambles of a tory party and labour putting together a campaign akin to the '97 one?