[Closed] So, this Scottish Independence thing Cameron's banging on about...

Why only give the scots a say? As an englishman I would welcome the opportunity to be able to vote to expel the scots from the union and the english body politic.

Even if (big if!) Scotland were to become independent, I very much doubt visas would be needed. I doubt it would matter much to England if thy left, and while it would take some time for things to settle I'm sure they could afford it. They'd probably lose their free education, mind...

And +1 to the idea of giving England a referendum on the Union!

How would the financial side of things work?

Would an independant Scotland receive now money from Westminster? Would they have you raise their own funds via their own taxation? Would the price of independance be higher taxes?
Would it become unattractive for, say, an English company to have operations north of the border?

We kept on having wars between the Scots and the English until the act of union. I assume that would start up again, so yes, a visa would be required.

And if caught cycling anywhere north of Fort William you would almost certainly be shot as a spy.

Or turned into specialty haggis.

Seems like an interesting subject to chat about I noticed a couple of Jock riders post on here, I wonder what they think?

We think you're an absolute arse for referring to us as "jocks"

Is everyone trolling TJ? - from the topics that seem to have been posted over the weekend, it looks like it's TJ-baiting of the highest order.

It's not very nice. I think he needs a break. TJ, please leave it alone.

derekrides - Member
Would it be good or bad news for us?

Bad IMO but only on the basis that I think we're better trying to work to our similarities rather than trying to divide people on differences. In most ways really, I suspect very few people would notice any significant difference to their lives.

If the jocks vote yes, is that going to mean visa's to ride up there?

On a more serious note could they even afford to go it alone?

Yes, exactly how well though depends on the exact details (oil ownership, etc)

Personally I hate it that we appear to be subsidising the free education thing, it really galls me having to pay for my kids to go through Uni, then again Divide and Rule where have I heard that recently...

On a political note I guess it won't do the Tories any harm, dumping a load of Labour MP's seats.

Nah, politicians of all flavours love power, they'll never shrink their influence willingly.

I reckon Alex Salmond will bankrupt Scotland within 5 years of independence. Spending huge amount on "National Investments" like roads, bridges, education, healthcare, etc - The Scots would be wise to restrain his grandiose schemes by rejecting independence.

Calling Salmond's bluff. Brave, or foolish? I'm not too sure at this stage.

I'd say give them independence on the single condition of enforced repatriation.

I was thinking of posting on this

The SNP have in their manifesto a obligation to have a referendum towards the end of their term. Cameron is threatening to force a referendum earlier than that and that he would set the question. Is he so dim as to be unable to see what a boost that would give the SNP? Really everytime he opens his mouth on Scotland the SNP gain support and so does independence.

Scotland's Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon accused Mr Cameron of "a blatant attempt to interfere" in a decision that should be for the Scottish government and Scottish people.

"It's the attachment of conditions that gives the game away - this is Westminster trying to interfere," she told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"Perhaps I should be relaxed about that because the more a Tory government tries to interfere in Scottish democracy then I suspect the greater the support for independence will be, but there is a key issue of democratic principle here.

"The SNP was elected on a clear prospectus and it's right that now that we have the mandate we can proceed on that basis."

The SNP would prefer a straight yes / no referendum but a load of folk want the "devo max" federal option to be considered so they might be pushed into having that on the ballot paper.

Two points to the independence finance argument. if you believe in independence for Scotland on a philosophical level it does not matter how impoverished Scotland would be. Self determination is all. However cash flows out of Scotland into England so most commentators believe Scotland would be better off without having to support England.

Reasons why Scotland would be better off independent. No foreign adventurism / wars and no expensive nuclear power or deterrent. NO wasted money on such nonsense as foundation hospitals and city academies, no massive austerity cuts damaging the economy.

Scotland's economy remains in surplus as it has been for a long time. No deficit here, no national debt being created in Scotland.

Cameron is posturing here for his own party. I cannot believe he is so dim as to give Salmond - the best political operator in the UK such an easy open goal as to interfere in a referendum on Scottish independence

There's something incredibly ironic about Cameron (who couldn't get a majority under an electoral system especially designed to give majorities) trying to dictate terms to Salmond (who got a majority under a system especially designed to prevent majorities).

Who on earth does he think he is?

Cameron's father-in-law is one of the largest absentee landlords in Scotland.

We woulld only have to go an bail them out in a few years so I can't see the point.

TJ, I read it somewhat differently as some quite clever politicking to put Alex Salmond on his back foot.

The SNP would prefer a straight yes / no referendum but a load of folk want the "devo max" federal option to be considered so they might be pushed into having that on the ballot paper.

With the 3 option system, would it mean that if one option gained 34% of the vote and the other two 32%, that option would be chosen to represent the views of the nation?

Cameron is the best thing to happen to the SNP since Salmond's landslide.

There's something incredibly ironic about Cameron (who couldn't get a majority under an electoral system especially designed to give majorities) trying to dictate terms to Salmond (who got a majority under a system especially designed to prevent majorities).

Who on earth does he think he is?

The same upper-middle class toff who dares to tell the poor that they are a burden on society.

Ian - that would not work - it would need to be a 50+ % vote for one option - It would have to be a two stage question or two votes.

salmond is rubbing his hands with glee at the interference from westminster and froma tory government I am sure. It allows him to point out interference from Westminster and to play the anti tory card.

Camerons problem is he has no expertise in Scottish politics amongst his cronies and does not understand the issues I believe

Thanks for that TJ, I was wondering about the process.

TJ (honest questions here, no baiting!)

On the timeline - I heard on the news a while back that AS wanted to delay the referendum because he is not certain of the outcome. Is that true? Is so, then DC may be trying to trap him as he did with AV and the Lib Dems?

How would taxation work? Is AS proposing Scottish corporation taxes for example and the power to set them up unilaterally. If so what would happen with RBS say? Wouldn't they just carry on arbitraging different tax rates?

I was intrigued by BBC news yesterday night saying that DC was taking a gamble (as I though it was the opposite) because it would be seen as a size 12 sassenach boot trying to stamp on Scotland.

ok - one bit of baiting, he can do this as long as the racism over Uni fees continues. I would like my son/s to benefit from a bit of Scottish education.

[edit - bit of a x post on the AS motivation bit. But can anti-Tory feeling get any worse in Scotland? DC should still probably call AS's bluff)

Scottish independence? Hmmmmmmmm Three words:

"Arc of Prosperity". What was that again? Ahhhhhh yes: the regulatory framework of Iceland, with the taxation regime of Ireland? Mr Salmonds preferred economic policy. Sounds like a winner right now doesn't it?

😆

Turkeys voting for Christmas, quite frankly. A brief period of childish satisfaction after the initial vote. Sticking two fingers up at 'the oppressor' (who'll actually be quietly gratified to see the back of you). Before you're grovelling back, cap in hand, when the economy does a Greece with in a few years

And +1 to the idea of giving England a referendum on the Union!

i Heard the interview above and she made a good point. Devolution is like a divorce both lots dont have to agree for a divorce to occur and a TORY [ how many MPS in the uk parliament are scottish? meddling can only possibly make things worse......still he is as arrogant as many of the english on this issue...let them do what they want...after all you also hate the EU meddling in soverign affairs [ you dont seem keen on all unions do you 🙄 ....supreme hypocrisy about self determination for Tories and Unionists witha dollop of arrogance thrown in...oh the ironing.

I heard on the news a while back that AS wanted to delay the referendum because he is not certain of the outcome. Is that true? Is so, then DC may be trying to trap him as he did with AV and the Lib Dems?

Those few years we will give us the time to sow minefields near Hadrian's Wall...

Turkeys voting for Christmas, quite frankly. A brief period of childish satisfaction after the initial vote. Sticking two fingers up at 'the oppressor' (who'll actually be quietly gratified to see the back of you). Before you're grovelling back, cap in hand, when the economy does a Greece with in a few years

+1 on this view.

Did anyone see that programme where they walled them all back in?

It was film; Doomsday.

teamhurtmore - Member

TJ (honest questions here, no baiting!)

On the timeline - I heard on the news a while back that AS wanted to delay the referendum because he is not certain of the outcome. Is that true? Is so, then DC may be trying to trap him as he did with AV and the Lib Dems?

There is no obvious majority for independence in Scotland so to some extend Salmond wants to hang on as long as he can so he can run on his record and compare it to Camerons record. DC may be trying the sdame trap but if he is he is realy ill advised as he is giving Salmond ammunition. The SNP manifesto clearly stated referendum at the end of the parliament so if DC does this he can be painted as interefering in /scottish affairs without a mandate to do so. Worth a good few points to the SNP

How would taxation work? Is AS proposing Scottish corporation taxes for example and the power to set them up unilaterally. If so what would happen with RBS say? Wouldn't they just carry on arbitraging different tax rates?

Salmond is an economist by background and he would need to have this sort of detail out in the public domain. there is no huge detail I have seen on this sort of issue. RBS would have to be changed to be a state bank like the bank of England

I was intrigued by BBC news yesterday night saying that DC was taking a gamble (as I though it was the opposite) because it would be seen as a size 12 sassenach boot trying to stamp on Scotland.

More than a massive gamble IMO - a massive boost to the SNP.

[edit - bit of a x post on the AS motivation bit. But can anti-Tory feeling get any worse in Scotland? DC should still probably call AS's bluff)

Yes - and interventions like this would feed it.

Cameron forcing a yes / no referendum will almost certainly mean a yes vote

 

And it was a crap film too.

So some scenarios...I guess there could be two votes - a UK wide vote and a Scotland only vote. I assume that the fomer would give greater legitimacy? But what would happen if the Scots vote no to independence, but the rest of the Uk voted in favour? I haven't followed the proposals closely enough to know if this is a theoretical poss or not?

There are too many issues that haven't been worked out for anyone to give an informed view on whether Scottish independence would be a good thing for either side or even possible; taxation, defence, nationality (who's Scottish?) and ownership of assets being just some. I can see Salmond being a canny operator and using this - get a vote, win, say independence can come when certain conditions are met/agreements made and remain pretty much with the status quo almost indefinately whilst claiming victory and blaming Wesminster for independence not actually happening. It also gets over the problem of his party having no reason to exist if Scotland becomes independent.

RBS would have to be changed to be a state bank like the bank of England

But how would that work or even be possible with the UK government owning over 80% at the moment?

What relevance would an England vote have? its about self determination. the whole idea of a vote in England / wales / northern ireland on scottish independence is daft Note the UK is more than Scotland and England 🙂

would you allow a UK vote to kick the Falklands out?

I do have to say that Alex Salmond is the shrewdest, not to mention the most opportunist, politician in Britain. By a country bloody mile! He'll run rings around Cameron. As he has done with everyone else. He's clever enough not to actually want a yes vote, despite saying he does. As this would mean an end to the inflammatory rhetoric and posturing, and putting his money where his mouth is instead. TRhis would mean implementing the utter twoddle he's been over-promising for years.

Like the Lib Dems 2 years ago - He knows he can't deliver what he's promised. But doesn't bank on ever having too! If he gets independence expect a Lib-Dem-Tuition-fees style screaming U-turn every other day! As the funding evaporates

Thanks TJ - in that case, I reckon DC should actually take a gamble and call AS's bluff. He is getting too easy a ride, time for him to be tested properly perhaps. When all the facts are put on the table (is that too much to ask?) most Scots will probably lay aside the Braveheart BS and recognise that they are on balance better off as part of the Union. But at least let that have a say!! It would be interesting to watch. Plus I have 12-18 months before Uni fees becomes an issue (he says selfishly!!!).

I do not think that RBS could be transformed from a global (?) corporate and investment bank into a Central Bank for Scotland though?????

Is AS really that shrewd? Or is it a case of in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. I think he has been lucky that events have overtaken other political parties and have allowed his policies to escape detailed scrutiny.

Great on populism but is he good on detail. Let's see an opportunity for this to be really tested.

aye you so love the union that you do want to give the other members of the union a say just England...and some say the english have an arrogant attitude to the union and the other countries in it

i Heard the interview above and she made a good point. Devolution is like a divorce both lots dont have to agree for a divorce to occur

So it's patriotic for scotland to divorce the oppressive england, but arrogant for england to hold the same view?

Scotland would need a central bank and RBS is the obvious basis to create one from

Salmond is getting an easy ride for sure. All the other parties in Scotland have new inexperienced leaders and are thrashing about for an identity while being saddled with third rate politicians.

~Salmond is the best political operator in the UK by a long long way - he will run rings round Cameron as he has done round everyone in holyrood. and all UK Pms Edit - yes he really is that shrewd - and a good grasp of detail as well.

It would really be stupid for Cameron to force the issue tho - its really would be a huge boost to the pro independence campaign.

What would an independent Scotland have been able to do to bail out RBS? Surely the only reasonable thing to do would be sending thousands of folk to work in a jungle somewhere in central America?

It would really be stupid for Cameron to force the issue tho

Pehaps DC is being canny as well by picking on what he sees as a 'safe' target? It's a useful distraction from europe and the economy...

As the funding evaporates

Naaaaaa, he's going to fund it all from Aberd'abi, which is odd considdering he want's to power Scotland entirely renewably.

legend - Member

What would an independent Scotland have been able to do to bail out RBS? Surely the only reasonable thing to do would be sending thousands of folk to work in a jungle somewhere in central America?

Tee hee

Its one of the tricky questions - how to divide up the assets and liabilities of the UK - would take a decade to negotiate is my guess

I thought DC was only talking about it because he (and many people) are bored of AS continually talking about it and it is the British Govt who decide if and when there is a referendum, not the Scottish Parliament?

TJ - this will be interesting to watch for sure. I wonder if AS is a bit like Clegg. Looks a smooth operator and canny politician but when it comes to it......? You do not have to be a Tory to realise that DC has actually been very canny even when caught on the back foot - he has trumped his coalition partners and may well do the same with Sarkzoy when the next leg of the € crisis arrives in about 6-8 weeks time.

Its funny reading The Guardian coverage of the SNP today and your comments on giving the pro's a boost - these are actually quite negative/defensive arguments. I understand the point but think that there is another message behind them?????

Turkeys voting for Christmas, quite frankly. A brief period of childish satisfaction after the initial vote. Sticking two fingers up at 'the oppressor' (who'll actually be quietly gratified to see the back of you). Before you're grovelling back, cap in hand, when the economy does a Greece with in a few years

that just more english arrogance suggesting they cant cope without you...has the empire come flooding back ..i am sure the same arguments were put forward there and probably about Australia, India etc.

It plays into the hands of the SNP to spout this stuff and gets an emotional response from people who dont like being compared to Turkey or the suggestions that without their "parents" in England they would flounder...its BS as well.....I think the UK would struggle more if it left their current union with the EU ....but hey apparently self determination is a price worth paying 🙄 the hypocrisy oif caeron imagine what the Tories would do if the EU wanted to say when they could have a referendum and what ithe question was ...what would dave and you lot think then ? Seriously how would you react and then they said it was up to them if you left anyway..seriously would you be ok with this and vie wit as reasonable and remember Scotland did not vote for a tory led govt at all.
It is bizarre to here people dislike one union [EU} and use arguments against it then ignore them when it comes to Scotland and the Union they like.
Odd and you would not accpet it from the EU

Alex Salmond wanted to base his economic policy on the regulatory framework of Iceland, with the taxation regime of Ireland. Thus:

[i]In March 2008 Alex Salmond addressed an audience at Harvard University. Some of you may remember it. In the speech the First Minister referred to the "arc of prosperity" or Ireland, Iceland, and Norway; he referred to "the remarkable success of indigenous companies that have become global, Nokia in Finland, Ericsson in Sweden, Maersk shipping in Denmark or for that matter the Royal Bank of Scotland." (not the last of his praise for the Royal Bank); he said "the lesson we draw from our neighbours in Ireland - the Celtic Tiger economy - where annual growth has averaged more than 6 per cent over the past two decades, is that with the right strategy, there are no limits to success in the modern global economy."; and a hymn of praise to Scotland's financial sector "of course we Scots are lucky enough to have the one of the best brands in the world - a global recognition and affection for our culture that money cannot buy. Take financial services. With RBS and HBOS - two of the world's biggest banks - Scotland has global leaders today, tomorrow and for the long-term. And a growing number of American firms - not least JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley and State Street - are discovering that the Scottish financial sector can do anything you can do in London and can do it better and rather importantly in the current environment can do it at lower cost."[/i]

The scots would have been left holding the baby for RBS and HBOS.

If Salmond had had his way 3 years ago, Scotland would presently be making Greece look like Switzerland!

the ginger one - salmond continuously talking about a referendum? I have not seen it. All the reference I have seen to it come from unionist parties.

Though Salmond wasn't the only one who thought that salvation would be found that way...

We live and learn... well some of us do.

Gideon praisesd Ireland as well iirc and Iceland....he cannot be singled out for failing to see the crisis Binners can he ........its like you are saying you have faith in Gideon now 😯

No one [ except VInce apparently ] saw it coming

Teamhurtmore

Really Salmond is a much more astute politician that Cameron with a much better grasp of detail and the overall picture.

Its very simple. the SNP who are the majority Scottish government have a manifesto commitment to an independence referendum at the end of this Scottish parliament. If Cameron pushes one thru before that he will be portrayed as an out of touch arrogant English Tory forcing his views on Scotland and will allow Salmond to make the referendum an anti tory vote.

Not sure as to the pro's and cons of going our seperate ways (as an Englishman with a bit of Scottish heritage) BUT unfortunately when AS opens his mouth all I hear is a scottish Bob Crow.

its like you are saying you have faith in Gideon now

That's some pretty weird and twisted logic there Junkyard. I'm calling AS an idiot for his professed economic policy! So if Gideon is doing the same, then I'm calling an idiot too. Which he clearly is!

damn he did not fall for my trap 😉

so we would have had ascottish idiot in charge rather than an ENglish [Irish]one is this your argument now 😉

Its a weird old situation, but with hindsight I'm glad when the **** hit the fan, we had the dour Scottish electoral liability at the helm.

[img] [/img]

I dread to bloody think where all of us would be if either Alex Salmond or George Osbourne had had their mitts on the controls when it all went pear shaped

TJ - I understand where we are, just trying to get a grips with the why. Why the delay to the second half of the term for example? I am naturally cycnical of politicians, so this is the really interesting aspect for me to watch.

Frankly I do not have enough knowledge about Scottish politics to really comment on how astute AS is/isn't. But I am simple suspicious that there is an element of bluster combined with luck (I read too much Nicholas Taleb!!). Its only a hunch though and not real "evidence" (little in-joke there :wink:)

JY - the lack of consistency in stances between Scotland and Europe is an interesting one too!! But there will always be a point at which this happens by definition. Doesn't stop it raising an ironic smile though!!

Its not a lack of consistencey it is utter hypocrisy

I would love to put that EU scenario question to Dave and how he would react o a referndum on those terms and see how he respond 😀

[Paxman mode]
Answer the question
{/Paxman mode]

I dread to bloody think where all of us would be if either Alex Salmond or George Osbourne had had their mitts on the controls when it all went pear shaped

They would've done exactly the same, bailed out the banks and made a private banking crisis a multi-generational public finance crisis.

True JY - but isn't politics often all about brinkmanship!! For Sarkozy read DC in this case, I agree. They will always take calculated gambles. Makes it equally frustrating and interesting to watch.

[if the edit was for my benefit, I think you are looking for an argument, where there isn't one]

Why the delay? so the SNP can run on their record - "Look we can be trusted to run Scotland- look how well we have done - we promised we would deliver this that and the other and we have done"

Also so that they can look serious for the first 3 years about all the other issues and not be accused of being a one issue party. Tehy need to show they can govern

f the edit was for my benefit, I think you are looking for an argument, where there isn't one

No I would just like to see DC squirm ..i was more goading Binners tbh

The question I always find myself asking is that if Scotland's such a burden, why does Westminster want to keep it part of the union? 😕

=> Will you need a VISA to come to an Independent Scotland from England?

No. You probably won't even need a passport as per Eire/Northern Irish border control. In fact I dare say that most people won't even notice a change (unless Scotland stops using the pound).

=> How will an independent Scotland fund itself, will an Independent Scotland raise its own taxes and stuff?

Eh, is the English education system really that poor that people don't realise what Independent means? For the avoidance of doubt, yes an independent Scotland would be free to set whatever taxes it wishes in order to balance its books, including Income Tax, Corporation Tax, Road Fuel Duty, Excise Duty on Whisky etc. In fact, just like every other independent country in the world. Tax may go up. That's the thing about a democracy you see, people can elect a government who prefer to increase tax and deliver services or choose one with a different strategy.

There is talk of a "devo max" or "independence light" option. These would also see Scotland take full fiscal autonomy but remain part of the Union - so even the "watered down" version would still see Scotland getting control of its taxes. Right now (with no referendum required) the Scottish parliament are already in an ongoing struggle over increasing some powers which could, feasibly include Corporation tax. If Mr Cameron wanted to boost unionism - he could ease the way of that legislation and increase the powers of holyrood - it would dampend down some of the sentiment.

=> What will happen to RBS?

Nobody knows. Its unlikely that anyone (except maybe RBS staff) would be making their decision based solely on that point so its not really a big issue. It would be negotiated between westminster and holyrood - probably neither of them want it!

=> What would have happened to RBS in an independent scotland?

Its an odd question. Scotland wasn't independent. Perhaps RBS would never have ballooned to the size it was or been regulated the way it wasn't in a Scottish banking system. We will never know. It may have been cheaper for the Scottish govt to let RBS fail than bail them out. Whilst Ireland and Iceland are "in the shit", people aren't living in mud huts and killing wild animals in their high streets. To the ordinary man on the street the scenarious of financial armagedon isn't that different from life in Scotland during the 1980's tory rule.

=> Will it stop the "unfair" tuition fees divide?

The problem with devolution is it gives away some power, and sometimes there are things that are no longer under your control that you might not like. I think if you asked most Scots what is unfair about it - the answer would be that EU students get free education; if an Independent Scotland is not part of Europe (an issue which is not 100% clear - and is IMHO a major point that needs resolving before a referendum) then actually that could be resolved. If it is part of Europe then actually England would qualify as per france etc. and it could force a whole new review of the funding to avoid a mass influx of students from the south. Bear in mind it will be 2 or 3 years before we get a referendum, then even if it was a YES vote, it would be another 4 or 5 years before the details of a break up could be agreed and documented. Its unlikely that without Independence that there will still be the same tuition fees model in Scotland in 8 years time.

=> The "English" would be better off without the "Scots" anyway.

If that is the case why are they fighting so hard to keep the Union? There seems to be no political will at Westminster to drive such a split. If Mr Cameron would be glad to see the back of Scotland he's certainly not showing it.

=> Salmond doesn't want Independence anyway.

There may be some truth in this. I certainly think he would be daft to go with a Yes/No option only, because what does he do after a defeat. He may almost be better to rally his entire party behind an entire Independence Light movement with full fiscal autonomy as he can probably win that; it gives a slight concession to Westminster but we don't loose much.

=> The vote will need at least 50% support.

Actually nobody knows what the requirements will be. With three options some form of STV might be better - although determining the future of a country on a "least worst basis" may not be popular.

So, if Scotland did vote for, and get, independence from the union, what would happen to the Scottish MPs and Lords in Westminster? Surely they would be told to get lost?

Would the Queen remain as head of state? Would the Scottish regiments remain part of the Army, or would Scotland keep them to be deployed as an independent force? What about Faslane or Lossiemouth?

Would the price of whiskey go up?

poly - interesting comments but a trifle harsh on Eng education, surely? Your own post shows that the fiscal issue is not a straightforward one. Plus your comments on RBS fly in the face of AS's previous rhetoric on the issue.

~Salmond is the best political operator in the UK by a long long way - he will run rings round Cameron as he has done round everyone in holyrood. and all UK Pms Edit - yes he really is that shrewd - and a good grasp of detail as well.

I reckon Cameron is running rings around Salmond, here: two possible outcomes:

1. Salmond wins: no more Scotland in Westminster, all the Labour and SNP MPs get sent home, and the Tory majority goes up.

2. Salmond loses: Tory credibility in Scotland goes up.

For Cameron it's a win-win situation.

Would the price of whiskey go up?

No. I can assure you that this would have no impact on whiskey prices.

Tory credibility

There's no such thing in Scotland 😉

Go for it Scotland - what could possibly go wrong?

[img] [/img]

😀

Junky - the constitutional agreements of power and who carries responsibility are different in the UK/EU Relationship and the E&W/Scotland relationship - which were set out by the act of union, basically, any change in constitutional position of Scotland are bound by the terms of the agreements she has already made.

Tory credibility
There's no such thing in Scotland

Not at the moment, but if the other parties botch the whole referendum... who knows what the future may bring?

I'm afraid that no-one is addressing the major issue here. If those selfish gits north of the border go swanning off, once Call-Me-Dave has finished [s]gerrymandering[/s] re-drawing the electoral boundaries, the rest of us will be left with a permanent Tory government

I just hope the Scots are prepared to take the hordes of refugees fleeing north. Its only fair 😀

:-)binners!!!!!

A couple of points

1. At the moment Scotland can chose to have a referendum, but as they don't have any power to actually cause this to happen (this lives in Westminster) it would not be binding. What DC is offering is a binding referendum - a big step up. AS (who is probably the best politician in the UK) has had his bluff called. If he rejects this and then has a referendum later which comes out in favour, he will have lost credibility. The main reason that he wants to delay is because he is not sure at the moment that he can win (even a Dev-Max one)

2. Does the SNP want to win the Independence vote? If we take away the independence part of the SNP manifesto they look like any other centre-left party and as such they would be reduced. By having AS they would continue to lead, but without him they are very much weaker. Look what happened to the SNP when he stood down for a period. Also if they do win, they can no longer blame the 'English'

3. Independence affects us all. If Scotland chose to leave England, Wales and NI in the UK, then there would be an impact on all of us, not just North of the border. There would be a huge cost to separate Scotland. As an member of the UK, any costs should be meet by Scotland, they want to leave and change the status quo, they should pay. How much will this be - I have yet to see any figures, but it will be in 100's of millions

4. Separation of assets. At the moment the SNP approach is one of lets decide to be independent and then we can work out who gets what (except for the oil - that is Scotlands!!) Working out who gets what is going to take many, many years. It is a non-trivial exercise, covering all parts of the government, MoD, Land, etc. This will include RBS, HBOS - the new Scotland will have to accept any costs against them. It has been mentioned that Scotland does not have a National Debt. Well actually it has a share of the UK National Debt - which will have to be transferred to Scotland at Independence

5. Big Questions. The SNP has yet to answer questions like which currency, what will their role be in NATO, what terms are they expecting to join the EU, etc. Huge questions. If they retain the pound, they will have no influence over it in Westminster, would the Scottish people want to join the Euro now? What would be the terms for Scotland joining NATO and likewise for the EU? Would they get the same deal as the UK, or would they join with different terms. As a small nation they may not be able to dictate terms. Other questions like pensions need to be resolved before Independence

6. Jobs. The UK (without Scotland) would move any UK based jobs out of Scotland. It would not happen overnight, but it would happen. (You can't see the New Scotland giving government jobs to the rest of the UK!) Some of these would be taken up with the increase in the size of the Scottish government.

Overall there is so much to be sorted out. At the moment the approach seems to be one of vote for Independence and then we will sort it out. I think that DC is perhaps a little more street smart than we give him credit for. It will be interesting to see how AS deals with this.

Tory credibility

Think of it the other way

If the Tories grant independence, they solve the West Lothian question.

solve the west lotian question, and the Conservative party becomes a LOT stronger in Westminster.

edit: aha - I think Binners and I are now thinking along the same lines... no need to redraw the boundaries Binners, the W-Lothian question is the key to the future 😉

Not everybody in Scotland wants to be independant.

In fact pretty much everybody I know with more than 2 brain cells are filled with horror at the idea.

The problem is that the people who harp on about wanting it have absolutely no idea on how the policies are going to be implemented or even care.

sadmadalan - lots of good point there. I agree that people underestimating Cameron will get a shock here. As a neutral, I think he is playing a smart game in calling the SNP's bluff.

I think that DC is perhaps a little more street smart than we give him credit for. It will be interesting to see how AS deals with this.

I think he's a [b]lot[/b] more street smart than a lot of people on here give him credit for.

CaptainFlashheart - Member

No. I can assure you that this would have no impact on whiskey prices.

😉 You may be wrong though. Independence is declared, additional export tax is added to Whisky sales to nu-UK - call it a Scottish poke in the eye to us nasty English and our behaviour over the years 🙂

As a result, Whiskey becomes more popular and prices drop/rise depending on ability to supply 🙂

They best not slap any tax on Irn Bru. Thats all I'm saying! Wars have been started over less

swavis - Member
The question I always find myself asking is that if Scotland's such a burden, why does Westminster want to keep it part of the union?

Because the current members of the Bullingdon club have bloody great forests planted over parts of it that they will lose...Not to mention the grouse moors.

It would also be interesting to see what conditions...sorry "reserved powers" were imposed. The oil (whats left of it) is in Scottish waters,so England demanding a share would in theory be illegal, despite any conditions imposed. It is interesting that Cameron comes out with this at the same time as the Times is mentioning figures of 60 billion as our bill for getting out,DC running scared methinks?
Won't happen in my lifetime, would not see Eck getting a yes from the people who vote in Scotland (60-70%)

PS; I fully agree and endorse the right of my country to self determine (just in case TJ is head of the new secret police)

Because the current members of the Bullingdon club have bloody great forests planted over parts of it that they will lose

Why would they lose them? It'd just become ownership of land in a 'foreign' country - same as if they did (probably do) own land in France or anywhere else.

They best not slap any tax on Irn Bru. Thats all I'm saying! Wars have been started over less

But think of the Scottish balance of payments.

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Don't they make Bucky in Devon? Perhaps there will be a deal done about the oil. An oil pipeline from north of the border into England. A Bucky pipeline from Dartmoor to Glasgow.

Thus preventing rioting in Glasgae 😉

EDIT: Great minds Z-11 😀

willard - Member

So, if Scotland did vote for, and get, independence from the union, what would happen to the Scottish MPs and Lords in Westminster? Surely they would be told to get lost?

Would the Queen remain as head of state? Would the Scottish regiments remain part of the Army, or would Scotland keep them to be deployed as an independent force? What about Faslane or Lossiemouth?

Would the price of whiskey go up?

Of course the scottish Lords and Mps would no longer be there

Queen would remain head of state.

Scottish regiments become the scottish army

Nuclear subs would no longer be welcome