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Is it time for the 'Where's SurfMatt' when you need him comment?
I can't believe no one has said it yet.
The guy is driving a Mini Countryman. We need to organise an angry mob right now. Never mind his driving, buying one of those should be a capital offense.
Am I the only one who is interested in what Maxtorque would have done in the OP's situation?
Specifically if he/she had been driving the Mini?
I think the synopsis of maxtorques statement is as follows
Pay attention
Forward plan
Anticipate hazards
Don't be a dick
But hey I might be wrong
What would i have done?
As the OP, traveling in no particular hurry in the LH lane:
Used good observation and spotted the "pinch" that was about to occur (namely the lorry about to impede me, and the fact that the RH lane had an approaching vehicle in it, meaning that moving right to clear the lorry could bring me into conflict with that vehicle), and depending on the situation and either (i wasn't there, i don't know what would have been more appropriate, sorry)
a) slowed down in the LH lane, allowed the lorry to join in front of me, and the car on my right to continue past me (least possible conflict, but means i have to slow down, which can have secondary consequences (depends whats behind you, and any braking in heavy traffic can cause bunching and a shunt further down the road)
b) Accelerated in the LH lane, to get "in front" of the truck before it joins (low conflict, but slightly higher risk, as i have to speed up to do this, depends on road being both clear, and it being safe to do so ie no additional hazards identified before this action)
c) Accelerated, indicated, moved right into RH lane to clear the truck, but made sure i was travelling at a speed to actually be pulling away from the car in the RH lane, then smartly move left after passing the truck to clear the RH lane (Some potential conflict, potential for having to exceed limit, but allows me to continue at speed, again, depends on hazard identification
Without being there, or without good observation up to the decision point, it's impossible to say what would have been the "best" choice. It would not be a "snap" decision, but based on previous observation and to so extent road knowledge (ie if you regularly drive the road, you know what fixed hazards are up ahead, and hence can make a more informed decision)
If i'd being driving the mini then:
Approaching a car in the LH lane travelling slower than i am would immediately result in actions, typically
1) Reduction in closing speed, so the point where should they move right, i can stop without hitting them (of course, as speed is time/distance) at some point, if you are going to pass them, this becomes impossible, but realistically, closing speed ought to be appropriate to maintain ones safe space.
2) Position my car to the RHS of the RH lane to maximise visibility and the size of my safe space, and ensure i sit in that cars blind spot for the minimum amount of time
3) Observing the truck coming down the slip road, i know where they are going, i can assume they are likely to be slower than a car, and hence the car in the LH lane may pull right to avoid/let out that truck. (the "pinch" again)
Again, depending on exact timing, hazards and conditions:
a) Slowed down well before i'd got anywhere near the car, presented them with a space in the RH lane (i wouldn't flash them out, the lane is there for them if they want, i won't signal you to use it). Allowed the car to pull out and pass the truck
b) Accelerated, so as to pass the car BEFORE they get to the truck and pull out
c) Accelerated hard, swerved across the slip road de-lineation markings, behind the car in the LH lane, undertaken the truck on the verge as it moves rh onto the main carriageway, whilst giving both drivers the finger and blowing my "dukes of hazzard" horn....
(ok, perhaps not option C, but it's an option right??? 😉
Pay attention
Forward plan
Anticipate hazards
Don’t be a dick
Da edumacation never thtops on dis site dus it.
@wrightyson - here's a way to post footage to the cops
https://www.nextbase.com/en-gb/national-dash-cam-safety-portal/
"Without knowing anything other that what’s been written on this thread, how in the wide, wide world of sports can you conclude that the OP deliberately obstructed the Mini driver?"
i didn't. the don't obstruct other deliberately, what ever the circumstance" quote is referring to the poster on the first page who suggest they deliberately slow down when someone comes up fast behind them in order to obstruct them because they are speeding
The OP made a mistake. Due to a lack of observation, forward planning, training or experience, they got themselves into a dangerous situation that could have been entirely avoided. In this case, they were not the idiots, or the ones who initiated the situation, but as i maintain, being "right" is great and all, but not if it comes at the cost of being "dead".
In the ideal world, all drivers would be considerate, observe and avoid conflict, but that ideal world doesn't exist. Fortunately, there are some really simple, really easy to carry out techniques to avoid conflict, that massively reduce your individual chances of being involved in an accident. Those techniques do however sometimes require you to put your pride aside and be the one to defuse the situation, to pro-actively change your speed or path in order to lower the risks.
On our modern, fast crowded roads, these situations are becoming more and more common. Road rage is real, it affects all of us, so all i am recommending is that you do your best to drive to avoid it.......
Due to a lack of observation, forward planning, training or experience, they got themselves into a dangerous situation that could have been entirely avoided.
Ever think the mini driver could have avoided it using precisely the same techniques?
Maxtorque, are you geex but in a car?
Not only could have the mini driver avoided the incident, even worse for them they SHOULD have avoided the incident.
It's clear the mini driver was a * and the OP got mixed up in their *tery, for what ever reason. It wasn't the OP's fault, but they could have de-escalated the situation. Lets be honest, look at the pic the OP has put up, we could very well be sat here with both drivers up in front of the courts for causing death by dangerous driving. And that is my only point, who ever started it, it's in your best interest to be the one to do what-ever is necessary to avoid the situation spiraling out of control.
Don't get me wrong, that is hard, especially for us men, to put our pride aside to be the one accept the situation and defuse it, especially when we feel it's the other drivers "fault"
I'm not geex, because i can happily admit i'm not a great driver and there are plenty of mistakes i've made and continue to make, that i can always learn from others, no matter their skill or experience level. But on the flip side, i've been lucky enough to have a job where driving, and driving very high performance cars, has allowed me to gain a skill set beyond that of the average driver on our roads. But being "better than average" does not make me great, far from it. The biggest difference that an advanced driver can bring is attitude, rather than any particular skill. Particularly being able to analyse what happened when you (inevitably) make a mistake is a true advantage, and one i try to use wherever possible
BTW, for cases such as the OP's it would be interesting to see the entire, un-edited footage, especially if their dash cam includes a rear facing camera.
I'm not suggesting they actually did wrong, but what ever they did annoyed the other driver to the point where they were willing to cause an accident to get back at the OP, and it would be instructive for all to see exactly what that was...........
BTW, just for reference, this is the level of stupidity on our roads:
Watch how a minor incident ramps up, and how drivers with no driving skill end up, upside down in the hedge! (thanks to modern cars, they both walked away, had there been pedestrians or a bus stop where they crashed they would both be doing time for man-slaughter.....)
(I am NOT a driving god)
I have to agree with some of what maxtorque is saying. Good observation is the first step to Avoidance of a hazard. Or in H&S speak Elimination of the hazard. If you can eliminate the hazard (as he says avoid conflict) this isn’t the best option in hierarchy of control so for risk. That being said, mini driver was a weapons-grade “C-bomb” for his/her actions.
@pondo, I know a guy who most definitely would have been safer with a bit more speed (restricted vehicle) which would have helped him when the lorry he was overtaking drifted into his lane and nearly rammed him into the central reservations. Different circumstance I know but it does happen.
Quite.
Accelerating to avoid an accident is rarely the best option. But it is an option, and is it not good to have as many options as possible at your disposal?
Not exactly the same scenario, but it's happened to me. Driving through a lights-controlled crossroads in Manchester, car coming from the left ran the red light at speed. If I'd dropped anchor he'd have taken my front end off; done nothing and he'd have t-boned me; swerved too far and I'm into oncoming traffic. So I booted it, hard, whilst moving over to the right as much as I could without encroaching into traffic. He shot behind me missing me by not much, I don't think he even slowed down.
In hindsight maybe it was the wrong thing to do as it was a risk, but I had to make a decision fast and I cannot see any other way I could have avoided that collision other than better observation to see him coming earlier. I've learned from that and now never trust a green light, I always double-check traffic from the sides.
It's rare, but it does happen. There's probably other instances over the years if I were to give it more thought. The drifting vehicles CJ describes has certainly happened to me more than once, but again forward planning is the best mitigation here, don't hang around alongside other vehicles.
Unfortunately Cougar, not much you can do when while overtaking a lorry (overtaking another lorry) and said lorry gives it an extra 1-2mph and you now can’t get past! It’s why I’ve been trying to convince work that setting the limit at 80mph still stops the excessive speed but gives you that little bit extra as an option if needed. Ive lost count of the number of cars who seemingly “don’t want to let that white van man over take me!” and I then have no choice but to drop back a whole car length to pull back behind the them, or keep going till they’re forced to slow due to other traffic in front if I can’t drop back. Also, leap-frog with the same car for half an hour or more sometimes because my speed is constant and theirs isn’t!
I always double-check traffic from the sides.
I assumed everyone did this anyway? As my driving instructor told me some 30+ years ago 'red means stop, amber means stop, green means proceed with caution'.
Just got an email telling my to stop trying to avoid the swear filter!
apparently
1) the "t" word is considered swearing (i guess the mods live sheltered lives eh 😉 )
and
2) T then a letter, then a star then a letter is not ok, but 4 stars is?
I'm not saying we should have a free-for-all on swearing on this forum, but really, that seems a little bit silly in 2019 doesn't it?
(mods note: i'm not complaining, i genuinely didn't know that to swear i had to make sure i used all stars rather than some letters separated by stars, from now on i'll make sure i swear in full symbol mode)
The OP made a mistake.
Right - I think I might be getting a handle on your thinking now - what mistake do you think he made?
Fair play @crazyjenkins01 and @Cougar, moving past a drifting vehicle is of courses an entirely legitimate reason to go full loud (and getting the F out of the way of red light jumpers, although thank the good lord I've not had that happen to me).
I think in some european countries a vehicle is not allowed to overtake another vehicle unless its going a percentage (10?) faster. This prevents the 48/52 lorry standoffs that last for bloody ages on dual carriageways.
I am sure I saw it on a doc about a fire in a big alpine tunnel?
I have to agree with some of what maxtorque is saying
Yeah. I think they're getting a bit of a pasting for coming across as a little patronizing (I'm sure not intentionally). But I agree with what they have said. If people want to drive badly, let them get on with it. There's nothing I can do, in my car, that will teach them the error of their ways, so I'd much sooner minimise any potential conflict and let them jog on.
For reference, I am not a driving god 🙂
@maxtorque just swear as much as you like, the filter sorts it all out. Its actually a lot easier.
Yeah I get that @tomparkin, and that's what I try to do (most of the time!) but I won't get forced to move if I can't do it safely. I'll move to protect my self and others from idiots, but I won't move just cos someone's on my ar$e and cant wait 10 seconds
Meh
Guy pulls out guy behind is a prick.
Guy should maybe check mirrors more often
Prick should be done as not only a prick hes an angry dangerous reactive prick.
Dezb I'm glad you find my comments help full. And using poor English to suggest I'm or other people who cant construct sentences are thick makes all us dyslexic feel really speshul
Theres ****s everywhere online on the roads just be aware they're there
I'm not sure what the fuss is about?
OP pulls out
Guy behind flashes
OP gives middle finger
Guy brake tests him when he gets in front.
Nothing happened and everyone goes about their day, normal thing you see on the road between other drivers.
Don't bother the police please, they have far more important things to deal with...
...except dealing with dangerous driving. Re run that and you can add large pile up including two cars and an artic minimum.
From what I can tell the OP still hasn't contacted the police. Those 4 or 5 days are surely going to make it much less likely the haulage firm still has dashcam footage.
I agree pretty much with maxtorque.
I ride a motorbike (and I know quite a few on this forum do also) and I'm always on the lookout for developing situations in an attempt to avoid them completely. An argument between a bike and car/van/truck only has one winner.
I also employ other quite useful rules, for example:
* Assume that I am invisible.
* Everyone else is a nutter.
From what I can tell the OP still hasn’t contacted the police. Those 4 or 5 days are surely going to make it much less likely the haulage firm still has dashcam footage.
Yep, OP is suspiciously quiet.
Bit disappointing. Hope none of us run into this Mini driver while out on our pushbikes.
I think the answer to this lies in "reflective practice" something I like to do after any near miss. " what went wrong" " how could it have been avoided" " what actions that I did contributed to the incident" " What could I have done differently to avoid the incident"
Doing this has changed the way I cycle.
As for accelerating out of an near miss. I simply do not buy this at all. You may reduce your chance of a crash but higher speeds mean the severity of any crash would be higher.
Its my default to simply get out of the way by slowing and moving left.
One example from years ago riding my motorbike on a busy motorway. I am in the outside lane following a car that is overtaking slowly at about 70 mph. I have left my 2 second gap. A car comes up behind me fast. Tailgates me. I could have moved closer to the car in front to be ready to accelerate away when the road is clear. Instead I slowed and moved into the middle lane. the car that had been tailgateing me then accelerated right up behind the car that had been in front of me. Congestion ahead, the car in front braked, the car that had been behind me hit the car that had been in front of me. Slowing and moving left meant I was not caught between them.
The reason I did what I did? an earlier near miss in a similar situation had led to me deciding that this was the best course of action
From what I can tell the OP still hasn’t contacted the police
perhaps he's worried that the other driver may also have footage :-\
I could have moved closer to the car in front to be ready to accelerate away when the road is clear
As in "I'm being tailgated dangerously so must do the same to the car in front - what could possibly go wrong" ? I'd hope that'd never even cross the mind of any driver
The op has let the thread take its course. Love how I've become a bit to blame, maybe even a lot to blame in some eyes.
Just a quick question, if I'm doing 70 mph which I was and there is plenty of room to pull out how am I possibly tp blame, I fully appreciate not everyone sticks to the limit but mini man was plenty back but took proper umbridge to my manoeuvre which I'll clearly admit must have slowed him. The finger probably sent him in to rage mode and it obviously wasnt ideal, but **** him I ain't being bullied out of the way by a speeding dickhead.
As previously stated the footage cant be used as the number plate is unreadable, the derbyshire police website clearly states this. Relative (inspector) still to view it so we'll see what he has to say.
Been up the a38 in the van today and you'll all be glad to know no incidents but that's probably because I ragged it everywhere.
As you were.
"Just a quick question, if I’m doing 70 mph which I was and there is plenty of room to pull out how am I possibly to blame"
you use the phrase "plenty of room"
But then say
"I fully appreciate not everyone sticks to the limit but mini man was plenty back but took proper umbridge to my manoeuvre which I’ll clearly admit must have slowed him."
ie you do admit that you "slowed him"
Those two statements are mutually exclusive. Now, unless you post the full footage from front and rear camera's, we (the thread readers) have no evidence on which to decide the truth of the matter. What ever you did, whatever the truth, the fact is, it pissed off the mini driver.
Finally:
"The finger probably sent him in to rage mode and it obviously wasnt ideal, but * him I ain’t being bullied out of the way by a speeding dickhead."
Unfortunately this ^^^ is the really dangerous bit. Basically, two drivers came into conflict, for what ever reason, but neither drivers would back down. The result, luckily in the this case, was just two idiots trying to intimidate each other, and luckily that was that.
Next time, you (and the mini driver) might not be so lucky.
Don't misunderstand me, the mini driver is clearly a total * but, if you read the judges summary in the road rage crash case i posted earlier in the thread it says:
‘You didn’t start this but whatever provocation there may be I regard as slight. You reacted to Eaton’s driving and thereafter you fully participated in a road rage incident.’
ie, it apportions blame to both drivers, regardless of who "started it", simply because neither would back down. That, really is the lesson here imo.
we (the thread readers) have no evidence on which to decide the truth of the matter.
Hasn't stopped you pontificating thus far. 😉
Hasn’t stopped you pontificating thus far
Are you new here? This is what we all do? Thats the whole point of the forum.
you use the phrase “plenty of room”
But then say
“I fully appreciate not everyone sticks to the limit but mini man was plenty back but took proper umbridge to my manoeuvre which I’ll clearly admit must have slowed him.”
ie you do admit that you “slowed him”
Those two statements are mutually exclusive.
It quite possible to drive along at 70, *pull out safely* and take a few seconds to complete an overtake.
If the traffic behind is going significantly faster - speeding - they may catch you. When they catch you, they have to slow down. That’s not because the pulling out was unsafe, it’s because they were speeding.
I have a strategy for this, as long as when I pull out I have pulled out in advance so that the speeding car from behind is within about three braking distances then its fair that I have made them slow when the eventually catch up to me. Otherwise you would never pull out. Speeders have to take responsibility too.
it’s because they were speeding.
Bullseye.
Sticking a finger up is unnecessary. Making them slow down is just the job.
Then move over when you see if it is safe to do so, not when bullied by a smalldick in a tiny car
Stay classy; it infuriates those who aren't
ie, it apportions blame to both drivers, regardless of who “started it”, simply because neither would back down. That, really is the lesson here imo.
Remind you of anyone? Anything? Any(w)here? People in metal boxes / behind keyboards, same self-righteous, argumentative, ego-driven BS.
😂
