[Closed] So labour 9 points ahead in the polls....

Some of its funding, some of its assorted forms of selection be that 11+ or by parents playing the system and thereby taking resources away form schools they would otherwise have got. And the worst of it is political interference and meaningless league tables.

Yes I know I'm guilty of playing the system, but wouldn't you?

 

Is it Labours turn already?

You do know that the Labour and Tory parties are simply operating a good cop/bad cop scam on you, don't you? The Tories are obviously the "baddies" in this instance. They implement all the nasty policies while the Labour party stand on the sidelines whinging. After a while, they "pop out for a coffee" and in come Labour, talking all friendly and pally but not actually undoing anything the Tories did. They are both complicit in this - it's to give the electorate [i]the impression[/i] that they actually have a say in how the country is run via the ballot box and both parties need each other to survive.

Is it Labours turn already?

You do know that the Labour and Tory parties are simply operating a good cop/bad cop scam on you, don't you? The Tories are obviously the "baddies" in this instance. They implement all the nasty policies while the Labour party stand on the sidelines whinging. After a while, they "pop out for a coffee" and in come Labour, talking all friendly and pally but not actually undoing anything the Tories did. They are both complicit in this - it's to give the electorate the impression that they actually have a say in how the country is run via the ballot box and both parties need each other to survive.

Cannot agree more

Some of its funding, some of its assorted forms of selection be that 11+ or by parents playing the system and thereby taking resources away form schools they would otherwise have got. And the worst of it is political interference and meaningless league tables.

Yes I know I'm guilty of playing the system, but wouldn't you?

There's so much I'll never forgive the last Labour government for, not least the nasty habit they had of blatantly attempting to mislead the public on several occasions, most notably about WMD in Iraq. I voted for them once and will never, ever do so again.

That said, I've never voted Tory...it would feel completely wrong somehow, like selling your own grandmother. I don't trust them and really don't want them in power at all.

What we really need is something new, a party that isn't so mired in it's own dogma that it cannot even begin to make sensible policy.

Yes I know I'm guilty of playing the system, but wouldn't you?

Can you really envisage any other system than the one we have now, if we did find a political party that could bring in economical stability and create the fair and equal society we all want, would we then end up with a one party state?

We all know what happens to them !

Our system is deeply flawed though. We're onto the second generation of career politicians with no real world experience, Westminster life cocoons them from it. Both parties are victims of their own dogma to the point that they'll foist a counter intuitive policy on the public rather than just doing the sensible thing in the first place.

Moreover, to win an election, you only have to appear to be slightly less rubbish than the incumbents. The public readily accept that pre-election pledges will be reneged on, there's no binding way of forcing parties to stick to their promises.

Competition in politics is good, but there isn't enough of it. We've allowed two parties to dominate and in doing so they've both stagnated beyond usefulness.

"Capitalism is a system in which the central institutions of society are, in principle, under autocratic control. Thus, a corporation or an industry is, if we were to think of it in political terms, fascist, that is, it has tight control at the top and strict obedience has to be established at every level... Just as I'm opposed to political fascism, I am opposed to economic fascism. I think that until the major institutions of society are under the popular control of participants and communities, it's pointless to talk about democracy".
Noam Chomsky

And you're right its not a fair fight but what in the real world is?

I believe that education should be a level playing field, then we will see who's best. But no one wants a fair fight, least of all those who can pay for it. I mean, how else are going you get someone with a history degree running the treasury?

Can you really envisage any other system than the one we have now, if we did find a political party that could bring in economical stability and create the fair and equal society we all want, would we then end up with a one party state?

Or the possibility that other parties would have to clean up their act to compete. At the moment we have political parties who no doubt take the view that the public knows their all lying toe rags. They don't have to live up to much then.

Or you could get the other parties doing the complete opposite. Bit like the GOP and the democrats in the US. They seem to be trying to garner votes for completely different people. Two nations in one state.

druidh - Member
Is it Labours turn already?
You do know that the Labour and Tory parties are simply operating a good cop/bad cop scam on you, don't you? The Tories are obviously the "baddies" in this instance. They implement all the nasty policies while the Labour party stand on the sidelines whinging. After a while, they "pop out for a coffee" and in come Labour, talking all friendly and pally but not actually undoing anything the Tories did. They are both complicit in this - it's to give the electorate the impression that they actually have a say in how the country is run via the ballot box and both parties need each other to survive.

+1
The illusion should have been blown by the formation of "the coalition", between a party to to the right of Labour and a party to the left of Labour. Anything to maintain the charade.
The natural allies in a coalition should surely have been Labour in the middle and one of these other two next to them , not the parties furthest apart politically from their manifestos. And due to their results it had to be the Conservatives.
So, a Labour-Conservative coalition?
But even the sheep would have noticed, so we end up with this. An even more contrived charade.

It's pantomime politics, at best.

Can't believe it's only 9 points.
Pretty poor show given the situation!

My fear is Boris, god forbid the evil this man could bring.

The system is flawed in many ways.

However as Labour's only policy to date seems to be "We wouldn't have done/cut/changed that" then it will probably get a lot closer nearer the time.

It was well forecast that whoever won the last election would loose the following one as the amount of cuts etc was inevitable. Perhaps from a Labour perspective a good one to loose - like the good cop bad cop routine above.

I like the way everyone seems to blame politicians for the politicians we have and never the electorate who actually chooses them.

Opinion polls repeatedly suggest that the Tories would do considerably better in an election if David Cameron was replaced by Boris Johnson. This isn't because Boris Johnson has "better policies" than David Cameron, in fact I doubt very much whether many people can differentiate between the policies of the two.

It is quite simply because Boris Johnson is seen by many as a bumbling clown with unkempt hair who amuses them in a way that David Cameron doesn't. Nothing else.

If the Tories replace David Cameron with Boris Johnson and win the next general election I will blame the electorate for the fact that Britain is governed by a clown, not the Tory Party.

Competition in politics is good, but there isn't enough of it.

On the contrary, competition is bad in politics - that's why all three main parties sing from the same hymn sheet. To depart from it and offer a radical alternative would spell political suicide - the electorate simply would not stand for it.

All three parties carefully study what the electorate want and offer them precisely that. What they are in effect doing is marketing a product, one which is carefully honed to ensure the maximum return/votes.

Forget policies they don't matter too most people, if Boris said I'll be PM I think he would get in?

There's many a slip twixt cup and lip...

I expect that as the coalition unravels the Tories will shift still further to the right with a very nasty, vindictive, but populist manifesto. It worked for Hitler... And as the election looms Miliband will have to come out with some policies.Then watch the fun start...

I like the way everyone seems to blame politicians for the politicians we have and never the electorate who actually chooses them.

Glad you like it. You may have had a point last term.
But for those that voted LD as the only significant option to the left of New Labour, there's a right to feel cheated when finding them "in bed with the enemy".
And for those who voted Labour hoping that they would stay in power, there's also a right to feel cheated by them not working hard enough to make a coalition government with their natural bedfellows, the Conservatives. It's almost as if they wanted to form the opposition more, to maintain the charade.

How are you playing the system by sending your kids to private school? It's not like you've gone for a tactical baptism, you're just making a simple choice to pay for their education. That's the opposite of playing the system - you're shelling out fees out the bazoo for results you'll have to convince yourself are worth it.

You're also helping support the system. You pay private school fees, but also your general taxation, a portion of which goes to support state schools. By going private you are increasing the amount of money available per head for state school pupils.

It can be argued that by supporting private schools that you are helping to perpetuate the elitist system by not compelling the elite to educate their children within the state system and so have an interest in making the state system as good as it can be rather than opting out of it.

It can be argued that by supporting private schools that you are helping to perpetuate the elitist system by not compelling the elite to educate their children within the state system and so have an interest in making the state system as good as it can be rather than opting out of it.

That too. I'm sure there's a balance to be found somewhere...

EL
Intended to edit the post above but timed out.
You do have point, but IMO, less so than in a usual government term. Nobody actually voted for this Condem coalition, and for many it's not what they would have expected from the candidates they voted for with their manifestos before the election.

Forget policies they don't matter too most people, if Boris said I'll be PM I think he would get in?

This Boris below. People have short memories of how vicious and nasty this "buffoon" can be.
It's been posted on another thread, but it's worth showing again to remember the sort of person that was still working to maintain the deceit 15 years after the tragedy.
[img] [/img]

He said much the same about Portsmouth once. I think he knows better than to visit.

Remember that no matter how nice they appear sometimes, they are still nasty b'stards.

loum - why don't you also re-publish the apology that Boris Johnson made after this? Just to keep the record straight, obviously.

Sorry. The most over-used and rarely meant word.

its ok borris said 'sorry' for his vitriolic and nasty rant against those frightful northerners

his statement was based on lies, that were known to be lies even then. As a journalist and a politician youd think he might have actually looked at the facts before writing something so offensive

He's a politician. They don't let little things like facts get in the way of a good bashing of the working or formerly working classes...

his statement was based on lies, that were known to be lies even then. As a journalist and a politician youd think he might have actually looked at the facts before writing something so offensive

He didn't write it - although he did sign it off and therefore took responsibility for it.

Agree with [b]druidh[/b]. Sadly.

Labour have already said that they won't reverse any of the spending cuts, despite being "against them".

druidh
It didn't alter the fact that Borris had written this vicious attack, using "facts" he knew to be untrue. He blamed "drunken fans" when he knew this was wrong. It was 15 years after the tragedy, yet he was still abusing his position of power as a top media editor in attempting to peddle lies, despite the results of the investigations. He was rightfully caught, and pulled up on this and forced to apologise. But he did nothing to atone for it. If he had any sincerity, he would not have needed to be told to apologise, he would have done it off his own back. In fact he would not have been writing those lies to start with. It's right not to forget what he said: he may have apologised but that doesn't mean his attack should be forgotten.

"First of all, on what the mayor of London or others have said, I think this report is important because, as I have said, people right across the country, whether they are in positions of power and influence or not, this now is the proper explanation of what happened and people who thought it was something else need to come to their senses and realise this is what happened."

Forget policies they don't matter too most people, if Boris said I'll be PM I think he would get in?

I don't think he will. London Mayor, yes, that's because Londoners don't view this job as important, so they can have a "clown" as mayor, Leader of the country is something else.

Labour have already said that they won't reverse any of the spending cuts, despite being "against them".

Cuts are inevitable, Labour have said they would slow them down. With the latest employment figures out, And with Wales and Scotland showing rises in unemployment, I wonder how many of them were part of the 39,000 or so public sector jobs lost in the last three months?

"we can run capitalism better than them"-- interchangeable party slogan for the politrickcians

Boris for PM? 😯

You are aware that this would involve people outside the south east actually voting for him? Can you seriously see this happening? To the rest of the country he's just the jester at the court of Dave
[img] [/img]

he also only just scraped in as mayor (by 3.5%) against a deeply unpopular ken and he had all the free london papers and tabloids behind him

Where was that recent poll suggesting that the Labour lead in the polls would be much reduced with Boris at the helm?

Not that it will make any difference to what the public thinks (facts don't seem to matter any more), but the ONS has reported some interesting new data this week:

1. On education, there has been no reduction in the number of teachers

2. The number of people working in Health is actually higher now than when the government came to power (so much for Union's constant rhetoric about hidden cuts and privatisation)

3. On jobs - there are now around 1m more people working in the private sector than when the current government came to power. That's almost the same number of new private sector jobs created in 2 1/2 years that Labour managed to create in 13 years when most of their efforts went into expanding the public sector.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/12/unemployment-figures-public-sector-cuts?newsfeed=true

http://www.****/news/article-2202429/Economists-encouraged-private-sector-creates-million-jobs-coalition.html?openGraphAuthor=%2Fhome%2Fsearch.html%3Fs%3D%26authornamef%3DJames%2BChapman

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/how-many-public-sector-jobs-did-labour-create/2860

Farmer John - how many of those "additional" Private Sector jobs have been outsourced from the Public Sector?

1) academies are the devils work, goves managed to balls up this years gcse

2) so looks like the unions are winning that battle!

3)your link points out that 200000 6th form and FE teacher were reclassified as private sector workers

Farmerjohn, you obviously have not read the articles, your daily mail one, go read it from beginning to end, then come back and give a synopsis, think you'll find its a classic mis-quote of stats--

Even the govt spin docs wouldn't dare use these things....

The ONS data shows a change from 22,519,000 private sector jobs in Jan-Mar 2010, and 23,896,000 in Mar-Jun 2012. That's a net change of 1.37m. Take out the 196,000 Academy jobs and that still gives us 1.181m new private sector jobs.

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/million_private_sector_jobs_PMQs_David_Cameron-28124

druidh - Member

Farmer John - how many of those "additional" Private Sector jobs have been outsourced from the Public Sector?

Indeed. 3000 'new' private sector jobs in Plymouth just from health reforms meaning NHS staff being moved out of the NHS. Plymouth is barely big enough to be called a city yet has contributed 3000 of those just from Health, along with the loss of about 300 jobs altogether (really, all we have in our service both frontline and behind the scenes are 'streamlining', vacancy freezes and vacant posts being wiped out rather than filled again), I wonder how many more of those 1 million private sector jobs are not actually 'new' at all?

Don't worry,
Liam fox has come up with a solution. Get rid of capital gains tax, to boost the economy.
This should apparently be paid for by cutting benefits and maternity leave. 😯
Way to go.

This is my real fear. Bumbling Boris would be bad enough.

Liam Fox though? Could the Conservative Party actually lurch that far right?

I heard that Liam Fox nonsense this morning.

Attract business to this country by not requiring them to pay any tax? But if all the companies don't pay any tax, then who pays for the NHS, education, the benefits system?

Oh... I see.... we won't be having any of that nonsense any more?

Brilliant idea Liam. We're now aiming to become the western equivalent of Burma!!! Shall we set up some 'Export Processing Zones' where workers rights, and international law, no longer apply? We might as well go the whole hog eh? 😯