£10 BILLION and counting...
Think what that could have been used for....
The costs increases in the present economic climate are now absolutely obscene.
Only a ego-crazed politician, mersmerised by their own ludicrous vanity project could stand there and announce that a swimming pool is now going to cost a quarter of a billion pounds of taxpayers money. Its a swimming pool FFS! A quarter of a ****ing billion quid?!!! Why?!!
Papa - there has been and will continue to be large cuts in funding for grassroots sport as to pay for the olympics.
reduced participation will be the result as well as a loss of facilities such as eastway
Sorrry to put a downer on things Molly. Let's all just think happy thoughts and everything will be ok. 🙂
In fact there's evidence that exposure to elite sport puts some people off as its so far remo.ved from what they are capable of.
And there might be Olympics sports projects in schools, but the government has massively slashed the funding that supports sport in schools long term.
I reckon it would be a good idea for all countries to give something for upkeep of Athens (with the olympic link) and put the rest of the money towards upkeep of our own athletes to help get more medals, improving biking links 😀 and other sports to get the lardies off their bums.
But that wouldn't produce big announcements and mutual back-slapping for politicians, would it? And, of course, selling public-created works to their mates at knock-down prices. 🙁
aracer - you can ride at Herne Hill on an ordinary bike (I think - pretty sure anyway) - the Herne Hill track is made of concrete, the Olympic one will be made of wood.
I really like sport and I remember being proud of our athletes during the last Olympics. It's the deception and false promises surrounding it that bother me. And, I really don't think the organisers have thought the traffic thing through at all.
We are already being urged to consider working from home/changing working hours/taking annual during the Olympic period. F88K OFF! Not only have Londoners paid for it twice, now getting to work is going to be horrendous too.
there has been and will continue to be large cuts in funding for grassroots sport as to pay for the olympics.
Not to mention reduced funding for elite level non-olympic sport.
you can ride at Herne Hill on an ordinary bike (I think - pretty sure anyway) - the Herne Hill track is made of concrete, the Olympic one will be made of wood.
Well Herne Hill is a bit different to a modern velodrome - I don't think you'll find you can take an ordinary bike on to Manchester or Newport.
Bear normally I'd agree with you but at the moment we are in the middle of a right old economic cock up of epic proportions, yes I know the bid may have been put in prior to that but no one seems to be showing any restraint with the purse strings now.
Hmmm I dunno, my cynical side says if we don't get any golds there'll be a backlash from the public.We all love cycling, right? Remember how, for a few weeks, cycling was cool and positive PR all over the place in 2008, well we'll get something similar however well the Brit squad do
Accessibility at Manchesters velodrome is fantastic. About a tenner for an hours taster session, with an instructor, including hire of your track bike.
Mind you, Manchester built all its commonwealth games facilities on time, under budget, and left a fantastic legacy. Did the government look to this as a model? Did they ****!
Accessibility at Manchesters velodrome is fantastic
yes and the roof no longer leaks and water only pushes up through the floor when it rains and the downstairs toilets always work 😉
nothing to do with being built by AMEC during Mr Stringers tenure at all 😉
Manchester built all its commonwealth games facilities on time, under budget, and left a fantastic legacy
Which facilities are late being built? Last I heard the building of the facilities was ahead of schedule and is on budget or under. (Of course it depends on which budget you are looking at, as with all large projects). It will leave a fantastic legacy, the only real 'white elephant' will be the Olympic Stadium itself.
Of course you could always say that any spending of this on such a project could always have been spent on something else, that will always be the case.
Perhaps we can only look at the value and return in hindsight. If we look at previous large scale projects we get a mixture of results. The Dome has turned into profit as the O2 - how many of us could have predicted that while is was being built.
#Grum
In fact there's evidence that exposure to elite sport puts some people off as its so far remo.ved from what they are capable of.
I reckon that's true - even my feeble little 24 miles a day to and from work has my workmates saying "Oooooh, I could never do that!" and "I don't know how you do it!".
They are hardly likely to look at the Olympic road race and think "That's a bit of me, that is".
The taxpayer was stung by the Millenium Dumb...
sadmadalan - MemberIt will leave a fantastic legacy,
Really? what?
sadmadalan - Olympic venues on or under budget? How so? The original cost of the swimming pool was supposed to be £60 million. Which, for a hole full of water, already sounded a bit steep.
The present cost stands at £242 million. The costs have gone up threefold on pretty much everything. How is this 'on budget'?
Seems to me that the original costings were plucked out of thin air. Because all the firms knew they could massively increase costs, and the idiot politicians would just carry on writing cheques. After all.... Its not like its 'real' money, is it?
Wow, there's some misery on here.
I think the Olympics is and will be amazing, but then I love sport and Im not a miserable tosser expecting the world to give me something.
Leeds will host the Chinese I believe and there will be a lot of excitement about the athletes being in town and a general buzz about the country about our athletes competing.
Maybe there will be some records and achievements by British athletes and we might just enjoy watching it all.
I'm not bothered about a legacy, the only way to get things to happen in your community is to make them happen yourself, there is **** loads of money available for projects in the community if you do a bit of digging, councils are flush with all types of budgets to support sport etc.
Maybe some people on here shut just put up and shut up and maybe try doing something in the real world for their sport rather than expecting everything to be given to them, like a new playground being built in another forestry bit of land.
And there's the other big fallacy, that somehow the olympics is going to get the obese out and puffing away. Well it may for a couple of days, after which they will say a collective "sod this" and go back to the beer and burgers.
absolutely
we have what is - arguably - the best tennis tournament in the world with wall to wall TV coverage and yet all it manages to inspire is the courts in the park are busy for a couple of weeks every June
I assumed that was a given, contracters can't get public jobs on budget ever IM(limited)E, I will be pleasantly surprised if all the building is done on time, coz I never expected that to happen either.The original cost of the swimming pool was supposed to be £60 million. Which, for a hole full of water, already sounded a bit steep.The present cost stands at £242 million. The costs have gone up threefold on pretty much everything. How is this 'on budget'?
The original cost of the swimming pool was supposed to be £60 million. Which, for a hole full of water, already sounded a bit steep.The present cost stands at £242 million. The costs have gone up threefold on pretty much everything. How is this 'on budget'?
Simple - they just revise the budget 🙂
It's then still 'on-budget', despite being more expensive than originally thought.
But as we all know, what with the recession and what-not, everything's got more expensive.
The Dome has turned into profit as the O2 - how many of us could have predicted that while is was being built.
...which is a good argument for the state keeping out of the entertainment and entertainment venue industry!
The Dome has turned into profit as the O2 - how many of us could have predicted that while is was being built.
After they bought it for next to bugger all once the taxpayer had spent a fortune on it.
there is **** loads of money available for projects in the community if you do a bit of digging, councils are flush with all types of budgets to support sport etc.
Hmmm.... There's a lot of Olympics related money floating around now (diverted from elsewhere) but once that's gone....
Ignoring the petty cold war bickering the Olympic legacy seems pretty good to me:
Seoul: democracy
Barcelona: From dreary industrial town to popular tourist destination
Atlanta: Coke paid for a lot of infrastructure and housing.
Sydney: dunno
Athens: unlucky timing and a poor choice based on history rather than economic good sense.
London: my friends visit "Londres" rather than "Angleterre" so if Britain wants to encourage tourism then London was the right choice. The lack of enthusiasm on this thread doesn't bode well. I Lived in Barcelona in 89/90 and people were extremely enthusiastic about the project and determined to make the games a success.
If we could just find a way of channelling all the moaning and misery and turn it into something positive and useful ...
I remember the enthusiasm around the Euro 96 football tournament. The Commonwealth Games in Manchester was well supported. The UK consistently shows huge support for numerous sports & sporting events.
Too many people seem to be writing the Games off as a failure before they've even started.
I suspect if the UK was hosting the football World Cup there'd be a different mentality...
I dont think people are writing the games off, I think its just a miserable bunch on here.
If we could just find a way of channelling all the moaning and misery and turn it into something positive and useful ...
Agreed. It seems some people enjoy whipping up a form of social hysteria on here and probably further afield. What we really need is everyone concentrating as much energy they put into dividing people and put it into uniting people.
Enjoy the circus, you have no stake in the outcome! 😉
£10 BILLION and counting...Think what that could have been used for....
This ^
I repeat, it's obscene. The U.K. is in crisis and quite frankly it's scandalous that the Olympics are going ahead in this extravagant manner.
angry C_G
(waiting since beginning October for operation)
Papa - there has been and will continue to be large cuts in funding for grassroots sport as to pay for the olympics.reduced participation will be the result as well as a loss of facilities such as eastway
Absolutely untrue.
When Eastway closed as part of the Olympic development, the South East rep from British Cycling turned up at our local club with some serious cash to fund racing and participation at grass roots level. With the money we bought some bikes and trained some coaches to BC Level 2 and we now have a thriving and growing junior club. As a result of bringing the kids along we also have parents coming out on club rides which run at the same time. These are people who in some cases have never ridden a bike before. For what was a small club, since Olympic money turned up we have grown to over 250 members.
I know we are not the only club to have benefited from this as well. e.g Victory, Darenth, San Fairy Ann
Also Olympic money from BC has helped fund this:
[url] http://www.cyclopark.com/ ][/url]
Even so, cycling in the South East has had a fraction of the money spent on it than has been spent in just the Scottish boarders. The whole of bedgebury for example was built with £1.5 million including visitor centre where Glentress has just had what was it £6 million for the Peel centre and £800k for a track linking the car park to Peebles.
So when those away from the South East complain about the investment in facilities for the Olympics, please remember that sporting facilities in the SE generally were pretty rubbish and way below what can be found in other areas of the country, especially Manchester and Edinburgh.
Also finding it ironic that those who are complaining about spending cuts - yes TJ I'm talking to you - begrudge the jobs created by building and running the facilities which has made a huge difference in a very deprived area. Not all of London and the South East is wealthy you know...
Agreed. It seems some people enjoy whipping up a form of social hysteria on here and probably further afield. What we really need is everyone concentrating as much energy they put into dividing people and put it into uniting people.
If people just meekly accept everything with 'yay everything is great and nothing can ever be criticised' - then things will never improve.
Here's some other views to yours on cycling boriselbrus
The general feeling of the meeting was one of anger at the Olympic Park Legacy Company scheme and a real sense of betrayal by the OPLC.Many people left the meeting sad and angry.
'yay everything is great and nothing can ever be criticised'
You demonstrate my point.
Howso?
BTW I do plenty that's positive and useful in my work - and I see a lot of it being cut while massive sums are lashed on short-term projects related to the Olympics with highly questionable benefits.
'Hey everything's fine, chill out man' isn't really a very helpful attitude.
You stick with what you like then grum. 🙂
I never fail to be amazed at all the negativity surrounding the olympics in general and 2012 in particular
For my liking there are far too many media types whipping up a frenzy of negativity and I can't help thinking it because they are missing out on an all expenses paid working trip to some far off part of the world like the normally get every 4 yours
Roll on 2 dates in June & July...
19 June ... The torch comes to where I live, I have a day booked off work am really excited about it
27 July ... Opening Ceramony and the start of 2 weeks off work to coincide with everything
I saw the World Cup in 66, Le Tour in London and now complete the hat trick in 2012 of seeing the Worlds Greatest Sports events right here in my own country
[b]FANTASTIC !![/b]
Borelsubus - try telling that to all the sporting bodies who have lost funding as a result of the diversion of funds into the olympics. Hundreds of millions of pounds.
a small amount has been returned in initiatives like you say but the deficit is huge with for example 160 million gone from school sports funding
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/front_page/9111865.stm
Where has all the 'spent' money gone? Presumably it was spent somewhere.. I'm guessing in the UK economy?
TJ a lot of that money lost is being replaced with lottery funding, but what strikes me is the plethora of bodies managing sport in the UK, looking at that report one body alone had halved its overhead by £8 million, it seems that yet again management and the rest of it is where the money is going.
No sancho - lottery funding to sport is cut as well to pay for this junket
I have no issue with infrastructure projects to create jobs and to improve the infrastructure of the country - however there is going to be no significant positive legacy in terms of facilities, no benefit at all beyond the south east who already get far more than their share of government spending and the cuts in sports funding nationwide will have a huge negative effect.
"lottery funding to sport is cut as well to pay for this junket2
not according to the article you were linking to TJ.
But so what if there is no legacy for the rest of the UK, it's the Olympics and it's in the UK. and that is fantastic.
Do Londoners moan that they dont get Euro development money to build a mountain bike playground in Dalby?
I dont think people are writing the games off, I think its just a miserable bunch on here
We are hardly miserable just realistic in these money challenged times, everything is over budget, and going to be used for a few weeks then be sold to the lowest bidder, cam and boris,s freinds probably.
Wait until its over and the bills come in and we all have to pay them.
realistic?
hardly I would say pessimistic on overdrive reading the comments on here.
And none of the overspend is really going to have any impact on any of us.
Besides it's a drop in the ocean to compared to the 1 Trillion we have as a national debt.
Or the extra billions we are going to give the IMF in a couple of months
Thats some pretty weird logic going on Sancho
And none of the overspend is really going to have any impact on any of us.
So its not coming out of our taxes then? Is it just going to appear by magic? Are the Chinese donating the cash?
Besides it's a drop in the ocean to compared to the 1 Trillion we have as a national debt.
And how much did previous ridiculous vanity projects ie: the Dome contribute to that
But so what if there is no legacy for the rest of the UK, it's the Olympics and it's in the UK. and that is fantastic.Do Londoners moan that they dont get Euro development money to build a mountain bike playground in Dalby?
The Olympics was massively sold and promoted as being of benefit to the whole of the UK. A lot of the legacy for the south-east is also nothing like what was claimed. London already receives massive subsidy and the SE is already the most economically developed area of the country. The reason most places get trail centres etc is because they are economically under-developed.
hardly I would say pessimistic on overdrive reading the comments on here.
It's nothing to do with pessimism. The games will be great I'm sure - but the ridiculous overspend and the massively inflated claims about 'legacy' aren't.
I take it TJ et al won't be tuning in to watch the 100m Final, then coming on here raving about another WR?
Having Jamaica and the USA based in Birmingham will apparently generate £20M for the City. I presume therefore the sports facilities are pretty good in Brum.
Having Jamaica and the USA based in Birmingham will apparently generate £20M for the City.
I'd love to hear the reasoning behind that figure. If you ever listen to More or Less on R4 you realise how little basis many of these often-quoted figures have.
I don't think most here hate the olympics they are however critical of how things are being done (promises made, olympic legacy assurances, budget decided, now all changed) and how much it's costing.hardly I would say pessimistic on overdrive reading the comments on here.
10 billion a drop in the ocean? if you say so. Hardly the time to be on a big spending spree then.Besides it's a drop in the ocean to compared to the 1 Trillion we have as a national debt.
Or the extra billions we are going to give the IMF in a couple of months
People unbothered by the budget tripling or whatever - would you be happy if it tripled again? How much would be too much? Have you ever managed a project and been allowed to go over the budget more than 3 times over?
I wonder if it's some of the same people who usually moan about public sector waste and inefficiency.
Interesting article on it on C4's website. Its not pessimistic to point out just how much its costing us.
[url] http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will-we-strike-olympic-gold-this-summer/9020 [/url]
There is no way in hell there will be a net economic benefit given the cost overruns
I'll still tune in to watch it though after all we have all paid for it (dearly) so we might as well get our moneys worth
Dunno but at a quick glance and my (admittedly pretty limited) memory says the reverse is true 🙂I wonder if it's some of the same people who usually moan about public sector waste and inefficiency.
edit nice link
2020? when all those responsible will be retired enjoying their [s]kickbacks[/s] consultancy fees.What Mr Hunt’s department has done is commission a “comprehensive meta-evaluation of the impacts and legacy of the Games”. We’ll get an interim report in 2013 and a final analysis by 2020
Have you ever managed a project and been allowed to go over the budget more than 3 times over?
With something like the Olympic's, once you've started you can't just stop if it starts costing too much - "sorry, Olympics cancelled due to insufficient funds" - the implications would probably be just as costly.
Perhaps this is why initial costs have been proven to fall massively short - the construction companies know that the job needs completing by a very specific deadline, almost whatever the cost, so will bid as they see fit then just ask for more money later. (Too cynical?).
I cant't wait - I've got a ticket for the womens XC so looking forward to it. and eveything it stands for.
All projects overspend its government public sector what do you expect.
anyone remember the 12 billion written off on the the wasted IT project for the NHS that SAP could have implemented by now if the government had any clue about IT.
or the two aircraft cariers or Trident. etc etc
not everything has a direct benefit to us in the North, however, the nation will benefit maybe not financially but then this kind of thing isnt about financial benefit for the likes of me, however we will as a nation feel good about it, remember how proud we were as a nation when we kicked the argentinians out of the Falklands, we get very nationalistic at times like these and gets everyone feeling good.
Well said Sancho .....
well apart from having a ticket for the XC .. couldn't agree more
I'll feel good when I've had my operation. Did I mention I've been waiting since beginning October?
Sorry but it makes me angry seeing these sums of money being bandied about.
It will go way over buget and you can bet that pleanty of puplic service workers will lose there jobs as this goverment try to blance the books after it has finshed and the true cost of the games come to light.
Lets hope we dont end up like the last host,s you couldnt really afford to host them .
While all the world press is over here it would be a good time for all the unions to find there long lost backbones and have a few marches about job cuts ,pay cuts etc.
Hurray! You're bang on Sancho. All that's needed to whip the nation up into a total orgasmic frenzy is for us to go on a killing spree of some greasy dago's on the other side of the planet!
We could spank another few billion quid in the process, and the nations joy would be unconstrained
Actually the legacy of the games was an inherent part of the bid and was very much prompted by the complete debacle of the Athens Olympics. The majority of the venues are complete and have had test events, the Olympic Park is essentially complete, and the legacy benefits will continue to generate work for another 2 years.
They were still building some of the Athens venues the night before the events!!
I think some of you are just professional glass half full-ers 😕
I think some of you are just professional glass half full-ers
You mean glass half empty-ers?
And we are, after all, British!
If complaining was an Olympic event, we'd wipe the floor.
All projects overspend its government public sector what do you expect.anyone remember the 12 billion written off on the the wasted IT project for the NHS that SAP could have implemented by now if the government had any clue about IT.
or the two aircraft cariers or Trident. etc etc
Just because it's being done for the public sector doesn't mean it's being done by the public sector. Big difference.
Ok so.. it's happening, we're committed to it, the money's been spent, we probably couldn't afford it so let's just enjoy it and focus on trying (positively) to get as much legacy benefit as we can.
remember how proud we were as a nation when we kicked the argentinians out of the Falklands, we get very nationalistic at times like these and gets everyone feeling good.
Yes bet you where porud when some old woman gave the order to blow up the belgrano and kill all the sailors aboard for no reasoin and the scum with its headline Gotcha.
Yes must have been a very proud moment for idiots and fools.
Is there a new blowing up the argies event!! Somehow missed the tickets for that one... Mind you we will need the practice when they want the falkland oil fields back in a few years.
I think in a way we should try and consider hosting the olympics an honour.. yes it will be shite, yes London will suck and no we wont win many medals... This is what will make it so great.. as we can all moan about it for years to come.
aP = what legacy? seriously there is so little that will be a public benefit.
Much of what we were told would be a legacy is not happening.
the Olympic legacy seems pretty good to me:Seoul: democracy
Aha ha ah ahhaha ahha ahahaha ha hah aha haha hahah ha ha!
I love the Olympics. I'll be watching lots of it on TV. I'll also be out to wave as the Olympic torch goes past less than 100m from where I'm sitting right now (it goes right past the front gates of my son's school). Sadly I won't be going to see any of it live, as it all just seemed like too much hassle with a couple of very little kids (though I wish I had applied for tickets to the sprint canoeing - the most easily accessible venue, a sport I kind of do, and one where we're very likely to be winning medals every finals day). I guess I'll just have to take them to see some other major event in the future, where the performances will doubtless be just as good, but it will be far less hyped and much easier to attend.
However that doesn't mean the whole thing isn't a huge waste of money and a big junket for the big boys. I can't help feeling that we'd all be better off if Paris had won the bid.
London already receives massive subsidy and the SE is already the most economically developed area of the country. The reason most places get trail centres etc is because they are economically under-developed.
FFS - London makes more money and pays more taxes for UK than any other region and always has done.
As for questioning the legacy what do you bright boys all think is gong to happen to the athletes' village, the media city, the velodrome etc - they won't just just sit their rotting will they? Media city = offices = jobs (geddit?); athletes village = housing; velodrome, well if Manchester has one we need a better one and so on. I live 3 miles from Olympic Park and the area has been improved massively already so to say there will be no legacy just makes no sense. Weymouth gas a long overdue new road, hotels and other misc infrastructure. You may argue its poor value for £10 billion that may be a better argument but not much.
If you all have such a miserable attitude to the rest of your lives you really will have short sad miserable existences. Where do you get it from? I blame your parents. Everyone I know in London and Dorset (Weymouth, sailing) thinks it will be great. Cheer up FFS.
Athletes village - wrong sort of housing and not significantly more than was demolished to make way for it.
Media city - hugely expensive office buildings in a city full of unused office space
London [s]m[/s]takes more net money and [s]pays[/s] uses more taxes [s]for[/s] from UK than any other region and always has done.
FTFY
You may argue its poor value for £10 billion that may be a better argument but not much.
It's actually an incredibly good argument when you look at how much useful infrastructure you can get for that much money. I mean exactly how much was Weymouth's new road?
London makes more money and pays more taxes for UK than any other region and always has done.
This is complete balls - successive London mayors have made this claim and the substantiation has always been dodgy. Most likely it relies on corporate taxpayers based in London and describing their domestic tax revenue as being "earned" in London because it was reported there - but of course it was paid as a result of profits made all over the UK.
PS I blame Fatcha.
As aracer says enjoy the games, a celebration of sport, a good thing. Hopefully win some medals and get a few more people into various sports (but no it's not going to motivate the nation) But the event is being used by a lot of people to make money, gain kudos or improve their image and I think all the bull***ers, industrial strength scam artists and outright liars should get nailed to the wall afterwards.
Hosting the olympics is something to be proud of (altho being typical brit I'm half expecting it all to go wrong, an unreliable guy at work is involved in the cycling stuff 🙄 good luck with that) Spunking an obscene amount of cash (is it so hard to get a proper budget and set penalty clauses for rubbish contractors) and lying about UK net profit and legacy (hah) is not something to be proud of and dare i say it, worth getting our collective knickers in a twist about.
I've never been a fan of the Olympics in general. Not really a sporty type, cycling is a bit of an enigma in my make up. But then it is more of a pass time than sport for me.
What really turned me against the whole Olympics thing was news footage of people in China being forcibly evicted from their homes in the middle of the night with nothing new offered, just turfed out on the streets. This just illustrated the whole thing for me. The sport is secondary, it's all just a PR campaign for Politicians and their corporate masters. It does sicken me and I really have been sick to death of it since this time last year. I dread the rest of this year.
And don't give me that crap that areas are redeveloped as a result. Yes they are, but if you really cared you could have done that anyway. Window dressing on the grandest most morally dubious scale IMHO.
The country is in dire straits but we can afford an EXTRA £40M for the opening F***ing ceremony on top of whatever was originally set aside for it. And that is just one example that "they" haven't even hidden away.
I wonder how long it will be before the IOC simply award the rights to opening ceremonies and they ditch the sport as it costs too much to do that. It would alos mean they could make it an annual event rather than every four years.
Perhaps the unemployed should be asked for their views? It's insulting to those who are struggling whether due to unemployment, disability etc.
There's no legacy to be left, just another example of financial mismanagement of a vanity project.
I think we should actually start wondering quite why it is that Scottish railways receive nearly 15x the subsidy that Wessex region railways gets? Just got 2 more tickets to an Olympic cycling event - quite looking forwards to it all tbh.
Given the amount of 'work from home' projects being initiated through the public and private sector on the back of the expected transport overload and disruption, the biggest benefit could be a change in culture to show working at home is viable, succesful etc. Leading to more time spent productively - whether that's with familes, pursuing interests or working, and less time sat in car/trains etc. Oh, and a few less cars on the road wouldn't hurt either.
Richard
(working at home productively today)
Why is that cringe?
Would you prefer superimposed fireworks that aren't real instead?
We could go for the comedy angle, as haapened when Diana Ross opened the World Cup in the USA by scoring a goal... she missed but the grand climax started anyway...
why is it cringe - cos its a bit shit
So then TJ, as you're an expert on everything, what would you do instead?
Why not have a simple (and cheap) opening ceromony and just get on with the games?
I wouldn't be doing it at all.
There was an opportunity to take the olympics back to basics. It was missed.
Assuming I was in charge of this I would simply have a parade and a simple opening ceremony - what is the purpose of wasting all this money on something we all know will be a bit shit
How much money is being wasted on this and compare that to where that money could be used to do something useful 80 million quid is it?