Another display of ignorance on this matter, ransos. There's more than enough sun, wind, tidal, hydro, wave to produce all the power we need and the technology for a smart grid and storage (which hydrogen and battery electric cars can be a part of).
If you think that mass transport, industrial and domestic energy demand can all be switched to renewables in the necessary time frame, then you are completely deluded.
Huge display of willful ignorance Ransos - did you look at the PURE link?Hydrogen is simply an energy storage medium - and a fairly good one at that. Much better than batteries in many ways.
I was researching hydrogen as a fuel source and storage medium long before you decided you were an expert because you know how to use google. It's cruddy in some very important ways, that cannot be solved because of its chemistry.
People saying that Hydrogen is not an option because of energy cost need to look at the picture below
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The three squares represent the area which needs to be covered in solar panels to power, the world, the EU 25 and Germany. Saudi for example has a massive amount of nothing land and a massive amount of sun and money, as well as a declining principal (only?) asset.
It's cruddy in some very important ways, that cannot be solved because of its chemistry.
Enlighten us then? I know about the storage and condensing difficulties. I am not talking about using it in IC engines but in fuel cells - and am aware of the drawbacks of fuel cells. so what else? Its already been used on a small scale for a decade on unst.
Serious request Ransos - enlighten us please
Bimbler - there is a solar plant supposed to be being built right now in north africa - some doubts over financing but its hopeful
people I rural areas use hybrids or ultra-efficient petrol IC engine cars
There could well be a place for IC based on biofuels. If we restricted their use and provided alternatives for other uses, then biofuel could meet those needs quite possibly. Things like diesel from algae or ethanol from cellulose.
Its already been used on a small scale for a decade on unst.
Lots of things are feasible on a small scale because they don't address the problems of mass usage. Scotland has loads of land and hydro potential and not many people - the opposite of England.
Molgrips - only small scale hydro potential. NO room for any more big projects
Enlighten us then? I know about the storage and condensing difficulties. I am not talking about using it in IC engines but in fuel cells - and am aware of the drawbacks of fuel cells. so what else? Its already been used on a small scale for a decade on unst.Serious request Ransos - enlighten us please
1. Producing hydrogen is inefficient (and dirty in most cases)
2. Compressing hydrogen is inefficient
3. Poor energy density
4. Prone to leakage (highly diffuse gas)
5. Entirely new distribution and storage infrastructure needed.
Nothing there insoluble is there? The biggest difficulty is the distribution and storage for sure. Low energy density? Compared to batteries? compared to hydrocarbons yes.
To me its one part of the jigsaw of solutions needed and yes I understand all those technical issues. The inefficiency of conversion wind / electricity / hydrogen/ electricity. That is insoluble.
But then fossil fuels and nuclear fuels are finite. renewables are not.
Not sure I buy your reasons against it Ransos...
you seem to be peddling the message we're all doomed and have to go back to pulling hand carts in the street, theres nothing to be done....
Well even if it not the be-all end all solution, it seems the best on offer to me.
1. Inefficient, but easy to do from solar etc giving essentially free/clean energy to do it
2. Again, efficiency is moot if the renewable generation of energy is in place
3. So you only the similar range as batteries, but can fill up again in a few minutes, non-issue
4&5 - so storage in infrastructure is required, it was managed by the oil industry, I see no reason it can't be put in place for a sustainable green alternative.
I would like to know what you mean by dirty production, I'm not touting myself as an expert, far from it, and would happily be educated on the downsides
Ransos, you seem to have missed the fact that 1-4 have been solved and 5 is work in progress. There are already hydrogen filling points and pipeline networks are already in place in parts of Europe:
[url= http://www.afhypac.org/documents/tout-savoir/fiche_4.1_pipelines_r_v._juin_2009.pdf ]Hydrogen pipeline networks[/url]
As for efficiency, using excess renewable capacity is highly efficient. One of the problems with intermittent energy is the need for buffers. When there are no more fossil fuel plants to shut down as demand drops and insufficient pump storage we'll need somewhere to dump excess kilowatts, the obvious answer is in hydrogen production.
Nothing there insoluble is there?
Only if you can stop hydrogen being a diffuse gas with a poor energy density, and want to pony up for an extravagantly expensive and carbon intensive distribution system.
you seem to be peddling the message we're all doomed and have to go back to pulling hand carts in the street, theres nothing to be done....
No, but there's no viable solution that doesn't focus on massive demand reduction.
1. Inefficient, but easy to do from solar etc giving essentially free/clean energy to do it
It's not an issue if you have lots of low-carbon electricity and don't know what to do with it. That is not the case here, and never will be.
3. So you only the similar range as batteries, but can fill up again in a few minutes, non-issue
The big difference is that batteries can be charged utilising our existing infrastructure, at home or in car parks for example. And well-to-wheel efficiency is worse. And fuel cells wear out quicker than electric motors.
4&5 - so storage in infrastructure is required, it was managed by the oil industry, I see no reason it can't be put in place for a sustainable green alternative.
It can be done, sure. The question is why would we want to? Expensive, lossy, carbon intensive, and for questionable benefit.
Ransos, you seem to have missed the fact that 1-4 have been solved and 5 is work in progress.
We've altered the fundamental chemical properties of hydrogen? Wow!
As for efficiency, using excess renewable capacity is highly efficient.
Absolutely! We could, for example, design cars that are capable of storing and providing it as needed, linked to our existing infrastructure. Any ideas?
carbon intensive
Wrong again. I think you underestimate the level of understanding of environmental and scientific matters by the majority of forum users. Feel free to link a reliable source to justify this claim.
Wrong again. I think you underestimate the level of understanding of environmental and scientific matters by the majority of forum users. Feel free to link a reliable source to justify this claim.
I see. So you claim that we can implement a new national storage and distribution infrastructure, and make it low carbon. I look forward to your proposal.
What we need now really is a well researched study on the environmental impacts of battery production before we go into full scale replace diesel/petrol with EV's approach...
would be really good to find a comparison of hydrogen to battery environmental impacts as I am sure that hydrogen fuel cells aren't going to be totally free of environmental impact.
[url= https://www.azocleantech.com/news.aspx?newsID=24238 ]They're also developing new, much cheaper, catalysts for hydrogen extraction.[/url]
Only if you can stop hydrogen being a diffuse gas with a poor energy density, and want to pony up for an extravagantly expensive and carbon intensive distribution system.
Genuine question - if we just had a gas pipe distribution system made of plastic, like the current gas network - what would happen? How much pressure loss per km of pipe?
Edukator - Ransos is right in that these are issues with a hydrogen economy especially for cars without solutions yet. all bar the inefficiency are potentially soluble however and indeed have been done on a small scale.
Hydrogen is a slippery little devil and IIRC just leaks out of steel vessels. A supply and distribution system like natural gas or petrol is pretty much pie in the sky. Hydrogen piped to your house or petrol station just is too technically difficult right now
I don't think Hydrogen could be used as a replacement for IC engined cars used as ours are now. I see its main use in smoothing renewables supply and for vehicles where batteries won't work for practical reasons
We need a new paradigm for personal transport. Thats the thing
Step 1. set quotas for the production of fossil fuel terrestrial vehicles as of today. Impose a 10% reduction every year with production banned completely at the end of 10 years. Give tax breaks to renewable electricity providers and hydrogen produces, set a 0% tax level on hydrogen and increase tax on fossil fuels by 10% a year. Market forces will do the rest. Within ten years fossil fuel cars would be in a minority.
Wrong again. I think you underestimate the level of understanding of environmental and scientific matters by the majority of forum users. Feel free to link a reliable source to justify this claim.I see. So you claim that we can implement a new national storage and distribution infrastructure, and make it low carbon. I look forward to your proposal.
After all the set up etc won't the distribution be hydrogen based?
molgrips - MemberGenuine question - if we just had a gas pipe distribution system made of plastic, like the current gas network - what would happen? How much pressure loss per km of pipe?
I don't think you would get anything oput of the end of the pipe. IIRC ( and i am sure Ransos will correct me 😉 ) Hydrogen just ignores standard plastic pipe as if its not there
Which is why existing hydrogen pipelines use steel.
Edukator - hydrogen just passes thru ordinary steel as well IIRC. Needs some clever metalurgy to hold it in. Its a slippery little fellow the H2 molecule
TJ, The materials for storing and transporting hydrogen exist, they have been around for years, are currently used in networks covering regions as big as the densely populated parts of the UK. It's a non problem.
Hydrogen tanks for house exist, hydrogen tanks for cars exist, hydrogen tanks for service stations exist, hydrogen tanks for chemical plants exist. Production simply needs to be increased so we need to stimualate demand and supply will follow.
Yes but its an impossibly huge project to use hydrogen in the same way that petrol and natural gas is. Its not cheap steel or plastic pipelines. Its tricky stuff to store and transport.
Economics will decide whether cars will use electricity and hydrogen is used as an industrial scale fuel and grid buffer.
Battery cars have taken the lead due to the simplicity of using them now. Which will be long term choice remains to be seen. I suspect both depending on use. I hope I live long enough to see it.