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Sounds like the Chinese solution. Dormitories full of migrant workers, 18 hour days, paying for your 4 to a room cell, paying for your food.
Regular suicides.
What's your solution TurnerGuy? Solo?
no idea, but it has to be some form of reponsible capitalism rather than just letting rampant capitalism run riot.
I mean these working classes, bless 'em, they are not bright and need looking after.
A bit like my British Shorthair cat - he's not bright either and needs protecting.
The main difference being that he is not racist or xenophobic - at least I think but I might find out differently in a couple of weeks when the new kitten arrives.
And I have got some ideas about the racism that is becoming apparent in Britain. It involves electric shock therapy though, so it probably wouldn't fly.
No the UK has a housing shortage. It needs more houses around employment, it would cool the housing bubble too. Some simple facts exist, to get out of the lower pay/work groups you need either find better work, increase your qualifications or experience. In many ways sitting around waiting for work isn't the best way. When people's skills don't match the work available it's hard to employ them.
In the end moving even temporarily for work is sometimes a good option, people need to take some initiative some days. There is no way of moving things like the east anglia veg fields to Redcar.
There is no way of moving things like the east anglia veg fields to Redcar.
No, but there's plenty of companies that could move tomorrow, rather than stay in the pressure-cooker South East of England where everything costs more (property, wages etc)
No the UK has a housing shortage. It needs more houses around employment
220000 according to an EU report, to accomodate the population growth from the EU.
Some simple facts exist, to get out of the lower pay/work groups you need either find better work, increase your qualifications or experience. In many ways sitting around waiting for work isn't the best way. When people's skills don't match the work available it's hard to employ them.
And how do you reskill yourself - you can get academic qualifications if you are bright enough (we are talking about the working classes here...) but a large number of companies will not employ someone without experience.
. 😕if you are bright enough (we are talking about the working classes here...)
So you should move business to areas of workers who are unskilled or not suitable? Which is it?
Governments can provide training and help to people (never stopped by the EU)
Well some ideas, build some more houses
it has to be some form of reponsible capitalism rather than just letting rampant capitalism run riot.
So then the onus is on the government to protect and enable its citizens *within* the modern flexible economy. Brexit would seem to be the worst way of attempting to do this, as it might reduce our businesses competitiveness - do we agree?
[i]That is the issue that has been identified - the ever growing gap between the working classes and the rest. Even the investment banks are starting to realise it, let alone Jeremy Corbyn...
Free movement either is, or is seen as a potential, threat to the already depressed standards enjoyed by the working classes. They don't benefit from it, unless you count the increased tax revenues of the government meaning that it is more readily capable of paying their benefits.
[/i]
Yep, they're poor because they're poor?
Well some ideas, build some more houses
Yup agreed but if the government builds and pays for them they must be offered equally to any EU citizen. UK rescources supporting the whole EU
@molgrips well no other trade group has freedom of movement, the EU has created a very poorly implemented free market where all the new joiners are increasingly poor, guaranteed downwards pressure on wages and working conditions. That "market" wouldn't exist without the EU project
Yup agreed but if the government builds and pays for them they must be offered equally to any EU citizen. UK rescources supporting the whole EU
Nope, non UK EU citizens do not currently have the same rights.
Yup agreed but if the government builds and pays for them they must be offered equally to any EU citizen. UK rescources supporting the whole EU
Seriously Jamby....
[img]
[/img]http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/farage-to-design-posters-for-trump-campaign-20160704110207
Remember how small the numbers actually are, rather than bang on about how nasty the EU is/was governments had every opportunity to fix some of the problems in society.
Are the Eastern European countries now short of people? Is there a lack of people doing their crap jobs if they are over here doing our crap jobs?
That "market" wouldn't exist without the EU project
Yes it would, of course it would! There were immigrants before the EU!
The EU has just changed the market conditions.
Are the Eastern European countries now short of people?
I thought I'd read that they were short of skilled workers, ironically.
I thought I'd read that they were short of skilled workers, ironically.
I imagine they need construction workers, what with all this British money being sent over to build houses. 😕
it might reduce our businesses competitiveness - do we agree?
it might, it might not.
Lots of overseas analysis I've seen that reckons it's a good move for the UK.
One even compared the EU to N'Sync, and the UK to Justin Bieber - it was obvious that the UK was going to have to move on...
Yep, they're poor because they're poor?
pretty much, but I think I am giving up - I'll be like everyone else here - I earn a good wedge, have a decent house, live in a nice area, so s8d the working class, it's all their fault for being too stupid to get a good education or for not working hard enough (that one could be true, based on my experience...)
I'll be like everyone else here - I earn a good wedge, have a decent house, live in a nice area, so s8d the working class, it's all their fault for being too stupid to get a good education or for not working hard enough (that one could be true, based on my experience...)
Perhaps the difference is many here don't see leaving the EU as the best way to help people. In reality the deal achieved will probably leave the UK freedom of movement in order to get some of the things that were promised the EU would just give us. So in the end a massive upheaval for no gain on things like that.
It all comes down to what governments will do for their people.
The deal reached will try to satisfy as many of the 100% as possible (not the 51.9 or 48.1) because that how you build a mandate at the next general election - whether that is 48 plus a bit or 52 plus a bit remains to be seen.
And that's democracy for you.
[i]teamhurtmore - Member
So a younger girl can do Solo's job for less pay. And the answer.....?[/i]
Not technically accurate. I have a wider, experienced based, skill set.
[i] It makes no odds whether she is Romanain or not, it happens in my industry all the time - it's called (rather appallingly) juniorisation - but it is not caused by the EU.[/i]
Yeap, an employee could be of any origin.
[i]
There has always been competition for labour (bo supply and demand) and it's a good thing.[/i]
For who? For those who pay the wage bill??
I find your lack of clarification reveals your bias in favour of cost reduction benefiting investors ROI.
Directly at odds with those seeking to earn a better wage.
[i]Freedom of movement is a positive factor that should be encouraged not demonised.[/i]
You still haven't explained in detail how it's helping me (please don't try, its obvious we are of diametrically opposed views) and you haven't stated whether movement should be controlled according to certain, prevailing, economic indicators/conditions. You know other countries monitor and control numbers of economic migrants. There must be a reason for that. Nothing to do with demonising folk.
It's my experience, uncontrolled economic migration into the UK is hurting those already here.
Regarding comments about wage costs and business competitiveness. This is intrinsically linked to costs of living in a certain region of the world.
Business want it any number of ways. A well trained work force, on as low a wage as possible. Preferably located in a sophisticated expensive region of the world which enjoys high standards of infrastructure and business/customer integration. Although I think you'll find workers in such places require higher wages. I'd work for less, if it cost less to be here.
As a side note I was surprized by you desperate efforts to drag the EU referendum thread down to hating foreigners, etc, etc. Even now you seem to be overlooking important comments while trying to divert the thread into being a race issue.
Racism is a non starter in the first place as all humans are just that! Human and so we are all one and the same race.
My only post for now.
Perhaps the difference is many here don't see leaving the EU as the best way to help people
and many people don't - Corbyn for example.
As there seems to be a fair amount of support for Corbyn on here I am surprised that there is also little support for his idea that free movement is damaging working class and workers interests across Europe.
You guys are all closet Tories, just embarassed to admit it.
Lots of overseas analysis I've seen that reckons it's a good move for the UK.
Which part of it? Its GDP, or what?
Best way to help the poor imo would be to remain to encourage overall prosperity, then use that prosperity for progressive initiatives. Funding education, providing free childcare and higher education, vocational training, housing, services etc etc.
Then, in 20 years' time, the best people for the jobs might be British anway.
I'd work for less, if it cost less to be here.
Nothing stopping you from taking your skills to another part of the country, or, indeed, a whole other country where the cost of living is lower.
You still haven't explained in detail how it's helping me
It might be boosting your company's competitiveness and thereby making your job more secure and your long term prospects better. Don't you think? The money that might be saved on her wages might actually be paying your higher wages, maybe?
You guys are all closet Tories, just embarassed to admit it.
Centre right leaning myself.
While people are happy to blame the EU they always fail to explain what they would do to instead. Just stopping free movement is one thing to shout. However this will require something more. Stopping the movement and nothing else won't fix the problems.
You couldn't make this shit up.
[i]As soon as we get a new Prime Minister, we need teams of negotiators. I’m told that we haven’t got the skill! I’m told that we haven’t got the competence or the expertise within our own civil service, which I suppose is the price you pay when you give away the ability to run your own country. So, let’s headhunt them. Let’s get them in from Singapore, or South Korea, or Chile, or Switzerland, or any of these countries who’ve managed to achieve far more in terms of global trade deals than we have as part of the European Union. [/i]
Said Nigel Farage.
So what, employ some immigrants then?
While people are happy to blame the EU they always fail to explain what they would do to instead.
Bingo.
Hence this thread, really.
Said Nigel Farage.So what, employ some immigrants then?
You fail to see the difference between Good and Bad Immigrants 😉
teamhurtmore - Member
So a younger girl can do Solo's job for less pay. And the answer.....?
Not technically accurate. I have a wider, experienced based, skill set.
Well if the experience is relevant and adds more value that you deserve a higher wage. If not, you dont. Its not complicated.
It makes no odds whether she is Romanain or not, it happens in my industry all the time - it's called (rather appallingly) juniorisation - but it is not caused by the EU.
Yeap, an employee could be of any origin.
Good so not a reason for Brexit.
There has always been competition for labour (bo supply and demand) and it's a good thing.
For who? For those who pay the wage bill??
I find your lack of clarification reveals your bias in favour of cost reduction benefiting investors ROI.
Directly at odds with those seeking to earn a better wage.
For all of us - you need to keep developing skills to be competitive. If you dont you become less competitive in the labour market. Pretty simple really. But overall, constant development helps us all. Protectionism does the opposite.
Freedom of movement is a positive factor that should be encouraged not demonised.
You still haven't explained in detail how it's helping me (please don't try, its obvious we are of diametrically opposed views) and you haven't stated whether movement should be controlled according to certain, prevailing, economic indicators/conditions. You know other countries monitor and control numbers of economic migrants. There must be a reason for that. Nothing to do with demonising folk.
It's my experience, uncontrolled economic migration into the UK is hurting those already here.
In your experience possibly. For the wider economy that is not the case. What/who should we prioritise?More people or a few individuals?
I have many times - I believe in FoM. Simple. I have benefited from it, my wife has and has one of my sons. Hypocritical to limit it in one direction. I have also employed young people from CEE (Cz, Slovakia and Poland) and all were excellent. Some have stayed here, some have (like me) returned home. All contributed positively to the economy. A win:win. Simple.
Business want it any number of ways. A well trained work force, on as low a wage as possible.
Largely true - although I prefer the higher wage, better skilled but lower quantity model.
As a side note I was surprized by you desperate efforts to drag the EU referendum thread down to hating foreigners, etc, etc. Even now you seem to be overlooking important comments while trying to divert the thread into being a race issue.
NOt sure if that is directly aimed at me - BUT, given that there is no legitimate reasons or empirical evidence to support the anti-immigration stance, then it is hard to move past the xenophobic explanation. This thread provides further evidence.
Racism is a non starter in the first place as all humans are just that! Human and so we are all one and the same race.
Agreed
But overall, constant development helps us all. Protectionism does the opposite.
Yes. I struggle to see how what amounts to protectionism will really help in the long run.
A win:win. Simple.
Hmm.. your experience though THM in the high skill high wage and dare I say privileged sector is not the same for everyone. When you've left school early and been a widget specialist in the local factory which then closes, and there are no more widgets to work on in your area - what do you do? Hard to ask people to up sticks and move to Romania isn't it?
It occurred to me this morning actually that in the UK we are at a huge disadvantage compared to the rest of the EU. Most of them learn English, and can come here to get jobs. But what language should we learn? Should we teach everyone Romanian so they can go there and work in Romanian factories when there are no factory jobs left here?
Labour movement is lovely when you WANT to do it - it's shite when you don't though. I'd be gutted if I had to move to Denmark and basically give up technical MTBing.
Racism is a non starter in the first place as all humans are just that! Human and so we are all one and the same race.
Do you mean racism or speciesism?
When you've left school early and been a widget specialist in the local factory which then closes, and there are no more widgets to work on in your area - what do you do?
take a much lower paid job in the same area because you can't afford to move and there are no decently paying jobs around, fall into arrears on your mortgage, get depressed, commit suicide, family goes onto benefits. Seems like a plan...
Or move.
You clearly can't afford to stay in that scenario.
TurnerGuy - Member
Seems like a plan...
So still no alternative plan, an idea of how after stopping free movement all these people will have jobs?
Or move.You clearly can't afford to stay in that scenario.
Moving presents problems.
a) it costs money
b) you have to leave your family and friends - which isn't very nice
c) once you've moved, you've got no support when you have kids for instance, and your parents aren't around to look after your kids when you're both at work. Or you're a single parent and you're at work.
So molgrips - should we move jobs to job seekers personally?
Hmm.. your experience though THM in the high skill high wage and dare I say privileged sector is not the same for everyone.
What is the same is that we supply our labour in competitive markets. When I was a grad the odds were in the several 000s:1 against getting a job. There was no privilege - just very high levels of competition which never stopped.
You cant escape competition.
When you've left school early and been a widget specialist in the local factory which then closes, and there are no more widgets to work on in your area - what do you do? Hard to ask people to up sticks and move to Romania isn't it?
Really? I have emigrated twice (Asia, Europe) and almost four times (UAE, Africa). In only 2 cases were they ideal. The other 2 represented compromises/sacrifices in some way or another.
Plus I have sacrificed a year's earnings to get extra education in my late 20s to increase my skills. Even then I face daily competition from younger, often more skilled people, who will do my job for half the pay. Its not different - its a fact of life.
I'd be gutted if I had to move to Denmark and basically give up technical MTBing.
Being obliged to move to Denmark does not figure among my horror scenarios!!
Moving presents problems.a) it costs money
b) you have to leave your family and friends - which isn't very nice
c) once you've moved, you've got no support when you have kids for instance, and your parents aren't around to look after your kids when you're both at work. Or you're a single parent and you're at work.
Yep - but the alternative is becoming slowly unemployable. One way or another you have to have a competitive edge, or you will be undercut by somebody, whethe the Romanian next door or the Indian across the globe. (Tangentially, one competitive edge is cultural, so I find the parents who recommend their kids to do a "useful" degree like engineering rather than a "useless" one like 'media studies' may be misguided.)
Really? I have emigrated twice (Asia, Europe) and almost four times (UAE, Africa). In only 2 cases were they ideal
I have also gone abroad to look for work, and loved it. But a lot of people would find it extremely difficult.
Yep - but the alternative is becoming slowly unemployable.
Of course, as I've mentioned earlier.
Only the government can ensure the prosperity of UK businesses whilst also supporting the workforce to get what they need - training, education, support such as childcare, business opportunities, attraction of investment and so on.
Shame the Tories favour the sink or swim approach though eh?
Re moving: when big industries shut down it can depress local housing markets e.g. Barrow in the early 90's lots of skilled people made redundant but with negative equity meaning they couldn't sell their homes meaning doctors writing sick notes at a tenner a pop = shit hole. Extreme example but a real one.
Moving presents problems.a) it costs money
b) you have to leave your family and friends - which isn't very nice
c) once you've moved, you've got no support when you have kids for instance, and your parents aren't around to look after your kids when you're both at work. Or you're a single parent and you're at work.
Johnny foreigner seems to manage this with ease, and this is a major part of the problem. As salaries are becoming more competitive we still want to maintain our current lifestyles and not give up anything. Solution: Get rid of the competition.
What could go wrong?
I don't see the problem with maintaining and improving lifestyles from one generation to the next. That should be an aim for all governments.
But globalisation and automation cannot be turned back, instead of austerity we should be investing in infrastructure, technology and lifelong education, these are what creates jobs and improves lives not protectionism and isolation.
Johnny foreigner seems to manage this with ease, and this is a major part of the problem.
Hang on a minute. SOME foreigners manage it, same as SOME British people manage it. You don't see the foreigners who want or need to stay at home, or who haven't transferable skills, because they are all at home. And there are plenty of them of course.
instead of austerity we should be investing in infrastructure, technology and lifelong education, these are what creates jobs and improves lives not protectionism and isolation.
Absolutely.
I feel we've made good progress here today. Can some tag Theresa May so she can have a read?
Hang on a minute. SOME foreigners manage it, same as SOME British people manage it. You don't see the foreigners who want or need to stay at home, or who haven't transferable skills, because they are all at home. And there are plenty of them of course.
In that case you've convinced me. We should close the borders now and retrain those who don't have the skills that are required.
That was easy.
In that case you've convinced me.
You're misconstruing.
I'm a remainer, I'm just identifying the issues with freedom of labour movement as a concept. And the issues with restricted labour movement.
The only sensible economic solution is to remain in the EU and make it work. If you let the markets **** people over then they will - the EU may (or may not) make this worse.
If you make sure that people have the support they need to get on in the modern world, then everyone's a winner.