[Closed] So, free labour movement then?

just because the EU isn't screwing you, doesn't go to say it isn't screwing your neighbour!

EU clings to a principal of free movement [b](whatever that means)[/b]

Anyone else idly googling where else they could work in Europe? Suddenly feels like a right I'd like to use before it is snatched away.

Anyone with an interest in the outdoors should spend the next couple of years in Scandinavia whilst they still can!

Many European countries too where they can start learning a vocation at school at 14/15 that then leads onto a formal apprenticeship. We have an education system fixated by exams, standards and university when the sad fact that many have meaningless qualification is subjects for which there is no work.

The point of acadmeic acheivements is that you have learnt how to learn, so equiping you for being able to learn new stuff or retrain yourself throughout your working life.

The point of acadmeic acheivements is that you have learnt how to learn, so equiping you for being able to learn new stuff or retrain yourself throughout your working life.

My skills are more appropriate to Brussels, apparently. I do have an interest in beer though. And I could drive to the Alps.

[i] MrSmith - Member
But that happens with hot shot young graduates with sunshine blown up their arses from an early age, 2 of those can be employed for the price of you. They could be be from anywhere, British or EU migrants.[/i]

Nice try (why am I not surprized someone tries to turn this into a race issue) but her nationality is irrelevant. The fact is she has unintentionally disrupted an economic ecosystem. I don't blame her for seeking and working for a better life. But at what cost??????

[i] molgrips - Member
I never play games, seriously.[/i]
Your thread/posting history suggests otherwise.
It's ok, either you don't need to admit past wrong doing, afterall its the web. Or you've become a reformed "character"...

[i] molgrips - Member
Alright, but why is it significant that she's from Romania? Would it not be possible for that younger person to be cheaper and also British?[/i]

Sadly for you, I see the trap you've set there, so no pitch forks, tonight. Where she originates from, isn't the issue. Rather it's the EU policy of adhering to free movement without regard for the impact it may have. That is the issue. For me and many millions of brits. She works for much less and so ****s the established, prevailing economic landscape. All to the benefit of the shareholders and business owners. Yippe-ky-ay!

Everything in moderation, right? Including economic migration? Well, not in 1950s Europe!

You can run-get your pitch forks now.

Your thread/posting history suggests otherwise.
It's ok, either you don't need to admit past wrong doing, afterall its the web. Or you've become a reformed "character"...

You're just misunderstanding, seriously.

Rather it's the EU policy of adhering to free movement without regard for the impact it may have.

But what's the difference between a Romanian and a Brit doing it? Is it because there are simply more people prepared to undercut you because the labour pool is larger?

Nice try (why am I not surprized someone tries to turn this into a race issue) but her nationality is irrelevant.

"Sadly for you, I see the trap you've set there, so no pitch forks, tonight. Where she originates from, isn't the issue. Rather it's the EU policy of adhering to free movement without regard for the impact it may have. That is the issue. For me and many millions of brits. She works for much less and so ****s the established, prevailing economic landscape. All to the benefit of the shareholders and business owners. Yippe-ky-ay!"

As you say, 'where she originates from isn't an issue'... So how is this connected to the EU policy of free movement? If your esteemed employer is trying to cut costs they'll do it any which way. Brexit isn't going to stop immigration.

If you are really interested in this debate, keep an eye on openeurope.eu. It's not full of love for the EU, but it's painfully realistic about how little effect leaving the EU will have on immigration. The language is of window dressing rather than real impact because employers are demanding workers, both skilled and unskilled and the UK labour market is not looking flexible enough to provide them.

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-might-post-brexit-uk-immigration-system-look-like/

[i]molgrips - Member
You're just misunderstanding, seriously[/i]
You nearly cost me the privilege of posting here. Your actions were avoidable. I won't forget it.

[i]But what's the difference between a Romanian and a Brit doing it? Is it because there are simply more people prepared to undercut you because the labour pool is larger?[/i]
That is part of it and a major reason Sir Sugar et al like the EU.
But also, wages that seem low for the UK are a handsome reward for those from other areas of the EU.

Have you stopped to wonder. If our friends from Eastern Europe are a worthy and valued addition to an economy which already boasts more people than jobs.
Why Sir Sugar doesn't pay them the same wage as me?

And if he does. Then perhaps he can explain his preference for people from the EU over those already here.

Alright, but why is it significant that she's from Romania?

Possibly because she's willing to take lower money to get into the UK as its safer, with better healthcare than at home and she'll live in a shared house saving/sending money home. Our Slovak au-pair saved most of the £50 a week we paid her and sent it home to her parents who used it for a flat deposit. When you get huge disparities in incomes etween countries what seems a low wage to us looks like a fortune when its sent home. Thats whay many immigrant workers leave their families at home and any in-work benefits / child allowance looks like a fortune. They can undercut a UK breadwinner as he/she is trying to support a family at UK prices not Easten European

But also, wages that seem low for the UK are a handsome reward for those from other areas of the EU.

Does the Romanian not live in the UK then and incur the same costs of living?

Have you stopped to wonder. If our friends from Eastern Europe are a worthy and valued addition to an economy which already boasts more people than jobs.

But not in many areas, apparently.

would you have kept your job if you had not asked for a pay rise ?

we all want to pay less for products and services .

As above why does Ashley/JJB Sports have mostly non-Brits in their warehouse ? Are they genetically better suited to the work than Brits, are we too stupid or lazy ?

Does the Romanian not live in the UK then and incur the same costs of living?

Yes in a shared house, spends little, drivers her old car from home. Not supporting a family here. Saves / sends money home to "set her up"

@ Jambalaya , you had an immigrant au pair , you paid £50 a week ???? 😆

Is it because there are simply more people prepared to undercut you because the labour pool is larger?

Lets say, for instance, that you grew up in the UK and have just been to a UK university, you have, as suggested before, £40k debt to clear, you're 24 years old and would like to start saving for the deposit on a house, and plan to have a family in the future, you're also prudent and looking to the future so think you ought to pay into a pension that will keep you in a reasonable standard of living in the future.

Romanian of equivalent age who was planning to work in the UK for a few years and return home would be in a completely different financial position wouldn't they, so would be willing (able to) to work for less.

On top of that - we keep hearing how theres a skill shortage, how the NHS etc. are propped up on foreign workers. Well, if that was the case, what would you expect to happen to wages without being able to recruit from abroad? In order to recruit the best people, then surely you would have to pay more?

Our Slovak au-pair saved most of the £50 a week we paid her and sent it home to her parents who used it for a flat deposit.

Yes in a shared house, spends little, drivers her old car from home. Not supporting a family here.

Same as many UK people but ok.

And I am not sure about this £49k of debt to clear. You don't have to clear it really, do you?

But aside from all of this, why aren't you complaining about the government who gave you this debt? The government who encouraged house prices to become unaffordable? Those problems are the ones that that need solving.

But instead of finding creative solutions, people are simply heaping it all on the EU.

so Nifan if you have to pay poeple more , where does that extra money comes from ?

Yet my company thinks she can do the same job as me, for LESS money

Can she?

FWIW in my old job we accepted a company wide paycut in order to avoid redundancies. Nothing to do with free movement, just clients not paying up for the work done. That was in year 3 of the 7 I was there.

On top of that - we keep hearing how theres a skill shortage, how the NHS etc. are propped up on foreign workers. Well, if that was the case, what would you expect to happen to wages without being able to recruit from abroad? In order to recruit the best people, then surely you would have to pay more?

I was talking to someone who works in the NHS and she reckoned that the fact we had free movement from the EU had effectively discriminated against immigrants from outside the EU, and implied the quality of staff had suffered.

I read an article recently which reckoned a lot of EU immigrants were fearful of being ejected because they would not pass the immigration requirements for countries outside the EU, so that implies that if we didn't have EU free movement then we might actually benefit by having a higher quality workforce...

Oh yeah: the working hard and sending all your money home to set yourself up back home thing - that would also happen with the points based skilled worker system. I've worked with Australians doing exactly that, in IT.

Can she?

she can if her living costs are less, as already discussed.

So basicaly free movement of labour supports/causes downward wage pressure.

Not great for the working classes in particular, or workers rights, but great for corporations and those of a Tory idealogy.

But strangely also great for the majority of this forum, who obviously have secret Tory tendencies.

There are more non-EU migrants working in the NHS than EU migrants...

that would also happen with the points based skilled worker system

yes, but when you have skills in an indemand area you can easily move around, but not in most working class professions, you have to just sit there and take being shat on.

There are more non-EU migrants working in the NHS than EU migrants...

so? that was her impression.

yes, but when you have skills in an indemand area you can easily move around, but not in most working class professions, you have to just sit there and take being shat on.

TurnerGuy - Member

I was talking to someone who works in the NHS and she reckoned that the fact we had free movement from the EU had effectively discriminated against immigrants from outside the EU, and implied the quality of staff had suffered.

This is a bit of a Faragism. Reality is, EU and ROW immigration are separate. Free movement from the EU has never stopped anyone recruiting from outwith the EU. The only thing that does that, is whether or not they can get a visa, and that's entirely a matter of government policy.

Basically it's another "blame the eu for a thing we do to ourselves"

philx1975 - Isn't this what civil servants do (my arse) assess cases based on facts rather than roll up roll up doors are open come on in.

Why do we have to kick out anyone who is already here? Just put some controls in on future immigration. Fairly simple and fair.

Why do we have to kick out anyone who is already here? Just put some controls in on future immigration. Fairly simple and fair.

would that the issues only be trading though, many people voted out because of the diminishing power of our government to make decisions that affect the people it has been elected to govern. A system where Malta has proportionally 15 times the power than the UK does.

many people voted out because

you do realise all the brexitiers are arch-neoliberals with a low wage, low cost, let the market decide ethos

You have spoken to all 17.4 million of us, chapeau (although I don't remember you asking)

I imagine that the first quote is referring to the people who will negotiate brexit as opposed to the people who voted to leave the EU. I also imagine that a lot of the people who voted either way don't know what neoliberal means.

Can you explain the Malta thing please?

There are more non-EU migrants working in the NHS than EU migrants...

So visa system works then.

I have spent quite some time speaking with a friend who works in recruitments / HR in the NHS. They voted Remain for various reasons but agreed a visa only system would still work for the NHS

My friend voted for 'leave' as she wanted to get rid of Cameron and knew nothing of the actual vote. I told her she was an idiot as she had no idea what she was voting for.

My 19 yo nephew voted out yet he has a Finnish boyfriend. Mind he's going the way of Jamba as all he seems to post is extreme right wing stuff these days from sites like breitbart. His parents have just shouted 'immigrants!' to everything and also had no idea of what they were voting for. Just they wanted 'immigrants!' (their constant refrain) out and thought everything would be fine in the country if only we could kick them all out.

Yes, I do believe some of my family are racist. 🙁

Mind he's going the way of Jamba as all he seems to post is extreme right wing stuff

I am very much centre ground politically. The view that a desire for controlled immigration is a "far right" policy is nonsense. The whole of the rest of the world isn't "far right"

The view that a desire for controlled immigration is a "far right" policy is nonsense.

The view that immigration is the main problem facing the country and should be placed front and centre in a campaign is much nastier than simply "far right".

Down with the EU! We're saved!

[i]Voters will have to wait before migration can begin to be cut despite Britain deciding to leave the European Union, Theresa May has warned.

The Home Secretary, who is the front-runner in the Conservative leadership election, promises to reform the EU’s rules on “free movement” of people, which currently allow an unlimited number of migrants to move to the UK to live and work.

However, she stops short of promising to abolish free movement altogether, warning that it will “take time” before the numbers of immigrants come down.[/i]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/02/theresa-may-cutting-eu-migration-will-have-to-wait/

So visa system works then.

Simply because of the numbers? Nonsense. There is more to it than that. Ease of hiring is a key issue for businesses.

Well it proves that the UK is dependant on immigration and it will now be harder for everyone which is great news for workers and business and may make the UK less attractive which will also be great for Project Make it AWESOME!! as the UK will lack the skills and numbers.

Ease of hiring is a key issue for businesses.

too right, HR seems to find it hard enough with EU nationals.

The European Union is increasingly operating like a free market across Europe, tearing up the social chapeter, damaging working class and workers interests across Europe.

Can you explain the Malta thing please?

3:30 onward for the Malta bit.

Ta, I'll have a look later

All his vids are quite amusing.

R-M for PM as far as I'm concerned 😀

R-M for PM as far as I'm concerned

me as well 🙂

TurnerGuy - Member

A system where Malta has proportionally 15 times the power than the UK does.

Sounds a lot more democratic than teh UK, where my vote as an SNP supporter is worth 200 times more than a UKIP voter's...

A system where Malta has proportionally 15 times the power than the UK does

What bollocks. Abuse of a fact to bolster a point of view.

What bollocks. Abuse of a fact to bolster a point of view

name that abuse - I think per head of population the claim holds up.

[i] mikewsmith - Member
Well it proves that the UK is dependant on immigration and it will now be harder for everyone which is great news for workers and business and may make the UK less attractive which will also be great for Project Make it AWESOME!! as the UK will lack the skills and numbers[/i]

You're just an angry, frustrated, remainster, now determined to paint as black a picture of the UK's future, as you can.

The optimists and nation builders will naturally ignore you and those like you.

[i] molgrips - Member
Nonsense. There is more to it than that. Ease of hiring is a key issue for businesses.[/i]
There you go again, sticking up for business and the super wealthy elite who begrudge paying minimum.
Of course the Elite like the EU, it provides a lower wage bill.
Yay!

I've offered an insight into my personal situation, which, if nothing else may assist remainsters in understanding why so many folk voted leave.

My story typifies how rigid and inflexible the EU has become. So much so to the point a major member has voted to leave.

Brussels should see this as a wake-up call. A message that the EU of the 1950s has no relevance in 2016/7.

IMO, the UK had never of needed to vote leave, if Brussels had been willing to review and revise anything and everything. Sadly that didn't appear to be the case, then, although those such as Michel Sapin seem to be possessed of an intelligence sufficient to declare "nothing" is off the negotiating table, including one of the founding principles of [b]20th century[/b] Europe regarding free movement of economically active individuals.

Interesting times.

So why can't we get around 5000 EU workers in to help re-open Port Talbot & Redcar steelworks?
Surely that would keep the Remainers & the Brexiters happy if it worked. Neither could complain!

There you go again, sticking up for business and the super wealthy elite who begrudge paying minimum.
Of course the Elite like the EU, it provides a lower wage bill.
Yay!

I was thinking more of small startups who need to be agile and move quickly to survive. Not big businesses or super wealthy at all.

I've offered an insight into my personal situation, which, if nothing else may assist remainsters in understanding why so many folk voted leave.

You make a very good point, and I appreciate it - it's one of the only real points that have been made on here. However I can also see how someone in your position *could* blame immigration for this when it could quite easily have happened with a UK citizen instead of a Romanian. So it might be that people are blaming the EU because that was their pre-existing belief. It's not yet clear.

We have the statistic that EU migration has depressed wages by 2% or so. But we don't have a breakdown of that figure - so for example it could have increased wages in some areas by promoting growth, then seriously undercutting others like Solo, and the average would not show that.

However we also do not have other figures to give that context, either. It may be that the security of businesses has increased (small and large before you jump on me) at the expense of headline wage figures. In other words, by forcing your employer to pay you more money than the Romanian they might end up going to the wall, and losing all their business to a Romanian firm composed of all those Romanians forced to stay in Romania.

Very complex issues here.

@MolGrips.
Good post. Nice to see some folk deliberately maintaining an open mind.

Good discussion, so far.
🙂

I was thinking more of small startups who need to be agile and move quickly to survive. Not big businesses or super wealthy at all.

how many of these small, agile, startups employ the working clases?

That is the issue that has been identified - the ever growing gap between the working classes and the rest. Even the investment banks are starting to realise it, let alone Jeremy Corbyn...

Free movement either is, or is seen as a potential, threat to the already depressed standards enjoyed by the working classes. They don't benefit from it, unless you count the increased tax revenues of the government meaning that it is more readily capable of paying their benefits.

Turner Guy - loved those videos 🙂

Ease of hiring is a key issue for businesses.

Yes I do appreciate why business loves an almost a growing supply of increasingly cheap labour. Cheap for business leaving the state to pay supplementary welfare or unemployment benefit for those left behind

We have the statistic that EU migration has depressed wages by 2% or so. But we don't have a breakdown of that figure - so for example it could have increased wages in some areas by promoting growth, then seriously undercutting others like Solo, and the average would not show that.

This I find fascinating and its my view that if the evidemce was supportive of freedom of movement of Labour on wages and regional growth and given Remain was the only campaign to have access to that data they would have told us much more.

We have the statistic that EU migration has depressed wages by 2% or so. But we don't have a breakdown of that figure - so for example it could have increased wages in some areas by promoting growth, then seriously undercutting others like Solo, and the average would not show that

Do we? I would love to read the anlysis that shows this, BSers regularly quoted the BoE study which says nothing of the sort - no surprise there. Anyone got a link or able to tell me more about this widely quoted "fact"?

You're just an angry, frustrated, remainster, now determined to paint as black a picture of the UK's future, as you can.

The optimists and nation builders will naturally ignore you and those like you.

My story typifies how rigid and inflexible the EU has become. So much so to the point a major member has voted to leave.

how many of these small, agile, startups employ the working clases?

That is the issue that has been identified - the ever growing gap between the working classes and the rest. Even the investment banks are starting to realise it, let alone Jeremy Corbyn...

Free movement either is, or is seen as a potential, threat to the already depressed standards enjoyed by the working classes. They don't benefit from it, unless you count the increased tax revenues of the government meaning that it is more readily capable of paying their benefits.

BSers regularly quoted the BoE study which says nothing of the sort

That is what I was referring to. I didn't read it though so apologies if I am wrong. However the point stands - average wage movement tells us nothing much. Broken down by job sector it might.

Anyway - most of the arguments are about immigration, not specifically EU migration. People from both India and Australia do what Solo is talking about. For that matter, what's to stop someone from say Inverness heading down to London and doing it?

Where can we draw the line? Restricting movement too much is a pretty severe path to start down. Are you really going to prop wages up based on what people think they deserve? What will that do for the cost efficiency of the businesses they work for? Isn't this what the problem was in the 70s? Isn't it the problem that say GM face in the US?

[quote="mikewsmith"]Your story - If I recall correctly was how a younger person with less experience was recruited by your employer to do the same job as you and therefor pegged your pay rate as the job rate was competitive. This happens all over the place. The solution would to to close borders and stop training people in your field so there was a skills shortage then your wages would rise. I's sure you agree an ideal situation.Might be time for him to add a few skills to his CV, then he can be like me, a bloody foreigner and still earning chunks more than the nominally more qualified/experienced and older bloke who does my job for the next group over.

He's not bitter about it though. For many reasons.

Apologies accepted mol, as you are wrong. But understandable as the BSers were all too keen to misquote the BoE to fool the GB public. The study makes reference to a US study that found that relationship and also to the fact that others did not support it. Their study - and it's specific - concludes the the impact on wages in the UK is small.

So we have to resort to "stories" and anecdotes. So a younger girl can do Solo's job for less pay. And the answer.....?

It makes no odds whether she is Romanain or not, it happens in my industry all the time - it's called (rather appallingly) juniorisation - but it is not caused by the EU. There has always been competition for labour (bo supply and demand) and it's a good thing.

Freedom of movement is a positive factor that should be encouraged not demonised.

This really is a huge question. If you want to keep wages high by manipulating the market it will have consequences that may not be for everyone's benefit in the long run.

In IT we have the outsourcing problem. It does not seem to have driven wages down though because we have a skills shortage; outsourced teams are generally doing the lower end of the skill set, and local experts, architecs and managers are still needed. Also there are always more projects that can be implemented. So cheap labour simply results in a bigger market for the higher skill/pay positions. Not so with the auto industry in which Solo works
- people can only buy so many cars as they will always be expensive items. And people only need so many.

In IT we have the outsourcing problem. It does not seem to have driven wages down though because we have a skills shortage;

We'd be in a lot more trouble though if the outsourcing worked a little better though.

We have a Romanian programmer at work, a devout Christian who is sending money home to build his dream home whilst he works here...

Just been talking to him about the EU and funnily enough he is of the exact same opinion as me, the EU is basically out to favor corporations/globalisation and screw the working classes.

His own evidence suggests quite the opposite but hey, ho.....

His own evidence suggests quite the opposite but hey, ho.....

depends on your definition of working class, I wouldn't put him in that category - he's in the mobile highly skilled sector.

he's in the mobile highly skilled sector.

actually I have looked at his code, 'highly' is being generous...

We have a Romanian programmer at work, a devout Christian who is sending money home to build his dream home whilst he works here...

You know, there's a Scot in our office taking a position that could be filled by a Yorkshire native. Just turned up for the cash blinking economic migrant. And he's contributing to the housing shortage. And he expects his children to be educated in a local school at the tax payers expense. And he expects the English NHS to treat him free of charge.

And for that my apologies. 😉

Are they those that are keen and eager for work and willing to move for it? Work doesn't appear where people live all the time.

how does that fit in with social housing? If someone lives in a social house and is trying to raise a family as well, and all the work has buggered off to another area because the workforce is cheaper, then is the country suppossed to provide a pool of vacant social house around the country in case people need to move to find work ?

Of if they had managed to buy a house they are now faced with all the fees involved in selling, paying stamp duty, etc, as they are forced to move because all the companies have moved to exploit a cheaper workforce somewhere else.

So the working classes are now condemmed to always earning the lowest possible wage and always renting just to support an environment that supports globalisaton and capitilisation.

A great way to build a society.

How come people on this forum have such left wing views normally but are happy to swing to the far right when discussing the EU?

Alternatively TG why do people confuse issues that have nothing to do with the EU with the EU debate?

Alternatively TG why do people confuse issues that have nothing to do with the EU with the EU debate?

which issues are you alluding to ?

If someone lives in a social house and is trying to raise a family as well, and all the work has buggered off to another area because the workforce is cheaper, then is the country suppossed to provide a pool of vacant social house around the country in case people need to move to find work ?

That can easily happen within the UK, it need not have anything to do with the EU.

What we're talking about is a flexible labour market vs security for workers. These two things are reasonably exclusive - but NOT just within the EU. It's also a worldwide and a national problem.

If you let locals demand higher wages to do a job than could be paid to people elsewhere, that business is less competitive than it could be. What's your solution TurnerGuy? Solo?

I have no idea what the solution is.

I have no idea what the solution is.

Well some ideas, build some more houses

and leave them empty in case people need to move around the country ???