[Closed] So Alberto tested positive for clenbuterol bronchodilator drug and blames food?

BikeSnob 😆

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I'm inclined to give Contador the benefit of the doubt on this though

If I was the prized asset of a million-dollar sporting venture and at a critical point in that whole process, someone would be making very bloody sure that I ate exactly the right foods, prepared and sourced under strict controls in order to avoid anything like this happening

If my team had a strong tendency towards paranoia they might also imagine that someone from outside the team might "spike" me with a bit of something on a day when I might get tested, never mind the possibility of food poisoning from eating meat that some geezer has brought with him from Spain that day

(unless it was in a cool box - with the "medical" supplies? 😉 )

[i]LeMond is far from being a fruitcake re' Armstrong and he'll be vindicated one day [/i]

Lemond has lots of axes to grind re Armstrong and he just comes across as a slightly bitter, jealous person. Backed up by the fallings out with Trek, LA and various others over the years, in fact Trek had to issue legal proceedings at one point as they handled both Trek and Lemond bikes and the bickering was having negative effects on everyone.

So Lemond never ever doped despite being the 3-times winner of the Tour (86, 89 and 90), a period where everyone was doped up on all sorts, testing was sporadic and ineffective and cover ups were rife. Read Willy Voets book and any number of others to back this up.
Yet Lance, one of the most tested athlets in the world in a period where cycling was exposed and (started to be) cleaned up was doped up. Riiiiggght. Innocent until proven guilty and at the moment, any court in the world would find Armstrong innocent of any doping charge.

Sorry but Greg Lemond is biased, bitter, jealous and insecure, trying desperately to claw his way back into the limelight after LA stole all his thunder. He's right about Contador, the situation doesn't make any sense as I said earlier but yet again he has to open his big mouth and have a dig about Armstrong... Not very helpful really.

LeMond is far from being a fruitcake

shocking editing there Vinny

As I said, LeMond will be vindicated

Yet Lance, one of the most tested athlets in the world

This is bollox and is no indication. Look to the number of USA track and field athlete now known to have cheated but who never failed a test. The US drug cheat docs were one step ahead of the testers all the way

Unfortunately for Armstrong you cannot prove a negative

However the evidence while circumstantial or hearsay and thus not proof in court is enough that I am convinced he was and is a systematic drug cheat.

how many of his team mates ar now known to have cheated? Evidecne of systematic cheating. Plenty more as well.

shocking editing there Vinny

Surely is.
What's your take on it though iDave- with your background, did you see much evidence of how pervasive it was?

How about hes innocent if hes never tested positive?

What a shitty way to have to live your life. Imagine at work people said 'your probably a fraud and one day we'll prove it if we find evidence'.

Imagine what it must do to your soul.

To fight and survive a life-threatening disease and comeback stronger yet everyone throws punches at you.

Lemond is an idiot. So does he admit to have won his Tours clean then? Outside the time limits to be stripped of his wins now isn't he?

Hora - look at teh evidence with open eyes - its very obvious what the truth is.

What? About Martians? Yes, I've seen Close Encounters of the Third Kind. So those were real alien space craft they used in the movie?

You are insightful indeed.

Those pesky aliens. What next? The moon is made of cheese?

If hes guilty wheres the positive tests? Why do people hate him so much?

Wouldn't evidence be like err... a failed test? Apart from the steroidal cream incident I can't think of one that is bang to rights, and that was explained presumably to the UCI's satisfaction if not TJs.

Contador has just been unlucky I'd say, just going by the amount that's been found. Isn't it not even over the limit anyway? In which case why does it even make a story?

Just this morning there was a news article supposedly linking household chemicals with cancer.. how could anyone reliably keep themselves 100% unadulterated without living/training in a bubble? Isn't that the idea of a limit?

[i]Contador has just been unlucky I'd say, just going by the amount that's been found. Isn't it not even over the limit anyway? In which case why does it even make a story?[/i]

You're getting confused about the "limit"
Found in the body there is NO limit for clenbuterol. If it's there, in any amount whatsoever, it's a failed test. Contador has tested positive.

However the amount that was found (50 [b]trillionths[/b] of a gram) is 400 times lower than the limit that WADA set for the lab to show it has the test and for it to become an accredited lab.

TJ and Lemond read the National enquirer. FACT.

LeMond does manage to come over as a total bellend just about any time he sticks his head over the parapet. I find it pretty wearing that everytime there's any kind of drug-related story about cycling, up pops Greg to remind us all that he thinks Lance was doping.

The trouble is, knowing that Armstrong's surpassed LeMond's achievements in the Tour, and in terms of becoming America's best known cyclist, it ends up coming across as if he's bitter at that, and if he's not, he can't 'prove a negative' any more than Armstrong can. At the end of the day, it seems to me as if LeMond is diminishing both their achievements.

I think the far bigger issue in relation to cycling related doping is why, when it's glaringly obvious that there's a culture of doping that involves team management, why the relevant cycling authorities continue to treat this as if doping is an individual choice. It seems to me that if they really want to curtail doping, then they need to put far more pressure on the teams, and ensure that there are meaningful consequences for a team if one or more of their riders are caught doping during the year.

Brassneck / Hora

there is plenty of evidence if you want to look

Non of it is proof. However to me the build up of evidence is enough to be sure he was.

Admitted systematic doping by numerous team mates. Sworn testimony from previous teammate. Several retrospective drugs tests, his own admissions that he used compounds that were not tested for but are now banned. .......The list goes on.

given that he swore that there was no systematic doping in his team but we now know that there was how credible is he?- his sidekick guilty FFS

Bury your head in the sand if you want But I believe he is a systematic doper and I don't believe anyone has ever won the tour without.

<i>i don't buy this i took it by accident mullarkey. if you are a high level pro it is the responsibility of that pro to check what goes in their gobs. </i>

What, like a King with a body-double who tries their food for poison; and they would then have to test the BD before the Rider can have any? FFS

Sworn testimony from previous teammate

used compounds that were not tested for but are now banned.

Non of it is proof.

Would you accuse your neighbour of being a drunk driver? On the probability that he holds a driving licence and likes a glass of wine on a Friday night?

Its not all hearsay tho some is. Some is circumstantial and its more than one person with sworn testimony.

You don't want to believe then its up to you

Anyone who has told what we now know to be lies ( over the doping of his teammates who he defended and who were clearly systematically doping which he must have known) has no credibility

Do you think its fair to attack a mans reputation when hes innocent?

I think its perfectly reasonable to point at the doubts inconsistencies and outright lies.

I don't believe he is innocent.

Don't you marvel at his obvious willpower, his success or his ability to survive and then to go on and inspire other cancer suffers?

Even if he was high as a kite on drugs (lets face it I doubt contador has always been 100% clean) - he still beat all the comers didn't he?

You're entitled to your opinion TJ in the same way that Lemond is entitled to his but frankly, posting it on every thread about doping is just as wearing as Lemond popping his head above the parapet every time the subject comes up. I respect your [b]opinion[/b] and your entitlement to discuss it but you're not discussing, you're just saying it over and over (on a thread that is, in theory, about another cyclist entirely).

There is no FACT in what you are saying, there are suppositions, circumstances, coincidence, rumour, lies and half truths.

Give it a rest.

In addition (has he has said)- after the nasty chemo treatment 'why would he put more chemicals into his body'?

He has to be very careful what he eats, etc as remission CAN happen.

Do you think he'd put his future health at risk for a bicycle race? He has been to deaths door.

I really don't like it when people kick down someones achievement. Just returning from cancer that had spread to his brain, bones and testicles then back upto the highest competitive physical sport.

Could we do it? I doubt we'd ride abike much again (if at all) if you or me survived what he did.

Hats off to the man. I have enormous respect for him.

Say he was using drugs after all. I DONT CARE. His drive, survival and campaigning mark him out as a true man to me.

Fair enough crazy legs but I could say the same about your defence of him

the continual repeating of "the most tested athlete" which is just bobbins

I was not the one to bring up Armstrong on this thread. There is plenty of evidence that he is a dope cheat and its a fact he has lied about doping in his team

Edit: I should have left it after " don't be naive Hora" tho - in that you are right. Instead I let Hora bait me into replying

So you concede defeat?

Say he was using drugs after all. I DONT CARE. His drive, survival and campaigning mark him out as a true man to me.

whyTF are you arguing about it then? So he's a god no matter what??? shouldn't a troll be more subtle?

any thoughts that what he 'may' have taken 'may' have contributed to the cancer?

back then, growth hormone was not synthetic, it was harvested from cadavers, most often from the homeless in Moscow.

any thoughts that 'maybe' LeMond was binned from Trek for his stance on Lance, rather than developing his stance after being binned?

any thoughts that his giving hope to cancer sufferers 'may' be a con 'if' he's on all sorts of illicit medication......

have you listened to Steph Mac's phone call? Her having been one of the 4 others in the hospital room when Lance told doctors what he'd taken??

none so blind as those who will not see.....

'maybe

So you don't really know the answer there do you? Why has he spent years bleating about Lance? Doesn't he have any sort of pride? Where is the self respect that a Tour winner should hold?

Has he tested positive? No. Thank you.

Why cast doubt over a man who has never tested positive considering hes gone through a hell of a lot of random tests over the years?

Why slag someone off who has achieved far more than you and me put together ever?

Baited? Laugh my socks off. Show the man some respect. Don't shoulder with company of confirmed cheats and nutjobs. The company that one keeps defines oneself...

Just love the self-loathing jealous-types.

word of the day. PARAPET

[i]none so blind as those who will not see..... [/i]

I can SEE what I said earlier in my reply to TJ: half truths, lies, coincidence, rumours, circumstantial evidence etc. No PROOF. Like it or not Armstrong is, at this moment, INNOCENT of any doping related crime. Unlike Contador.

Although personally I believe Contador is innocent as well, contamination is far and away the most likely reason for that positive. Of course whether it's contamination from eating meat or contamination from a bit of blood doping remains to be seen...

Do any of you doubters respect his second place then win at the leadville 100?

Or do you see him as some lucky cheat?

what has Leadville got to do with anything?

he is an incredible athlete. i don't think anyone is saying otherwise

ergogenic aids are not used to transform the man in the street into an endurance beast. they're used for fractional gains for already gifted athletes.

Lance's recovery from his fall on the final climb of the stage in 2003- nothing fractional could have given him what he showed that day.

Nothing.

Sorry, he remains a hero of mine.

hora, that's where idave's "already gifted athletes" bit comes in 🙄

he was the best in his time, but I doubt any of them were clean

just to clarify. ALL the top cyclists dope, they always have done, they always will do. its what they do, and they do it very, very well

[i]just to clarify. ALL the top cyclists dope[/i]

Not true. Not remotely correct.

LA passed every test the regulating authority asked him to take. End of discussion, really.

Do I think he took drugs to enhance his otherwise considerable talent? On balance, yes he probably did at some point in his career, as did most of his contemporaries in all probability.

As some-one has said before Cycling has to look at the management culture that allows (or at the least turns a blind eye to this) I've heard of Italian teams explicitly encouraging juniors (under 16's ) to take performance enhancing drugs. That's just wrong. Until that's sorted, and it needs sorting in the lesser teams in Italy and Spain urgently, then this will always be in the sport.

crazy-legs - thanks for clarifying. I was struggling to see what the issue was. If there is no legal limit presumably there is no way anyone can get it accidentally into their system.. though other evidence suggest there is. So perhaps there should be a limit, well below the performance enhancing level, for substances like this that are clearly well known performance enhancers.

I stand by him being unlucky rather than a cheat, and I'm no great fan.

Can't be bothered with the LA argument, I've never seen anything to make me think he systematically doped as opposed to just working harder than anyone else (all that anger seems to account for his more unpleasant personality traits and potentially his performance) and yes I can google as well as anybody.

I've heard of Italian teams explicitly encouraging juniors (under 16's ) to take performance enhancing drugs

If true thats disgusting. It puts someones body/future health at risk nevermind about the other arguments around the subject.

There is plenty of evidence that he is a dope cheat

As opposed to the very well documented and much, much larger body of evidence - mostly comprised of thousands of doping tests - that he didn't.

As a rational sort I place my bets where the weight of evidence is. If I was a superstitious or overly religious type of person I may put much more weight on rumour, conspiracy theory and 'gut' feeling. If I was that type of irrational person I'd probably think LA was a doper too.

When we lived in London I noticed/sat in the same bar/etc as stars. Didn't flinch. must say if I bumped into Lance I'd make a fool of myself, grin and ask for an autograph like a newborn fool 8)

well said mark.

Mark - as you well know that is fairly meaningless. The cheats have always been one step ahead of the testers and for most of Armstrongs career the testing was not very stringent.

Marion Jones? Tested far mor than armstong and far more stringently but never failed - however she doped all her career.

however you cannot prove a negative. Given that many of his teammates clearly systematically doped ( which cannot have been done without his knowledge) Given the sworn testimony from numerous people. Given his own admissions (of taking things that are now banned before they could test for them) and a huge further pile of evidence including retrospective drug tests ( and the refusal of further retrospective testing) on balance I believe he did

you can look at the evidence and believe he did not. There is no proof either way. Its not irrational no matter how much you would like it to be. its not listening to rumour and supposition.

Used to drive past Lance regularly - but that was before the cancer and just after his world's win. As my sis' knew Sean Yates's wife I was a fan of the Motorola team anyway. But yes i accept (after years of denial) that on the balance of probability (given all his rivals doped) LA did dope at some time during his post-cancer cycling career - he was just very smart at it. Still a big LA fan tho'.

I guess we have to wait and see whether Alberto fails the plastic bag test to see if he blood-doped.

Why is this even being discussed? If the amount of whatever it is in Contador's sample is 400 times less than the amount the testers are obliged to report, why has it been reported?

As for Armstrong; don't like his face. He does loads of truly admirable work for charity, can't take that away from him, but as for him being clean, even in his own words he only 'never tested positive', and din't like those who spoke out against doping...

Armstrong has some lovely friends:

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(That's the lovely GW Bush in that pic with LA)