[Closed] Snow driving - traction control or not?

You will probably need to disable it to get going in snow but once on the move stick it back on unless you get stuck again, the manual should cover this

Not got it on my toledo, too old a car and have been driving on snow and ice all week. Thus far I haven't had a slide or slip that i could feel, unless I had done it deliberately 😀 which admittedly happened on a few roads over the past couple of days.
I personally don't want it either, at least without it I have the option of using the engine power or not rather than some electronics deciding for me.

Despite having every traction contol gadget under the sun on my mini cooper s, there was no way I could get it up the hill I live on. Tried switching various gubbins off, pulling away in 1st/2nd/3rd, high revs, low revs, taking a run up etc but nothing could get my up the relatively shallow incline. Had to be abandoned on the street corner. Wide, low profile tyres are just crap in the snow.

Triumph toledo.....??......engine power????

On. Definitely.

It's exactly what it's designed for and (in my car at least) it does a pretty excellent job.

Depends on the driver's skill level. I keep it on, but it rarely kicks in. 😀

>Triumph toledo.....

Seat Toledo probably 🙄

We used to drive around happily in the snow in big rear wheel drive things like petrol 3 litre Capris & Cortinas etc.
Wasn't half as difficult as my current front wheel drive diesel with all the electronic aids you can throw a stick at - you expect the opposite wouldn't you?

without it I have the option of using the engine power or not rather than some electronics deciding for me.

and how do you do that? do you have 2 accelerators and 4 brake pedals?

I miss my old Megane in snow. Narrow standard profile tyres and a turbo diesel engine that wasn't far away from a lump of iron with a few holes in it to press them down into the road. Never got that stuck, ever.

best car I ever had for driving in the snow was a 1.1 k reg fiesta. It would get up anything and was the only thing to get up the only hill in Lincoln when it snowed when we lived there.

On ice or deep snow, TC off on my car otherwise it just bloody fishtails all over the road as alternate wheels get the power and start sliding.

Fine once the car is moving apart from the odd light-steering-wheel moment and flickering orange light.

Wide tyres, torquey diesel engine - shite on snow.

(Awaits Coffeking to tell me I'm living in a parallel universe...)

and how do you do that? do you have 2 accelerators and 4 brake pedals?

Yeah but it only stops the power going to the drive wheels when they are spinning. That's kind of the point. 😀

anyway, drove from Rosyth to Northumberland today. TC only kicked in a couple of times, but I was glad when it did!

You have to love the armchair 'driving purists' on here.

ESP will be running ~ 200 times per second and is best placed to know what the vehicle is doing. On definitely.

I can see the point in it sometimes.
However there are times when it is more of a hinderance than a help, and I suspect it gives some people far more confidence than they should really have in the conditions, lets face it bugger all that traction control can do if you are going sideways into a ditch

Personally I'd forget whats on or off. Keep away from the brake as much as possible (use engine braking) and make sure all lights front and rear are cleaned daily. Soon as you touch your brakes its trouble IMO. If you drive with the mentality that you wont use your brakes you'll lift off sooner/i.e. slow down.

I thought TC and ESP were entirely different types of systems.

TC is used to monitor and restrict wheelspin from the powering wheels.
ESP monitors the vehicles stability on the road and uses the brakes to help prevent slides and the vehicle going out of control.

This is my understanding of it anyway, correct me if im wrong.

TC is on until i need to get unstuck in deep snow.
ESP is never turned off.

Reckon its better off without. I've spent the past few days going everywhere sideways in a series 1 discovery, with no traction control/abs/safety features etc. My mate has a series two with all the aforementioned gizmos, he put it through an electric fence he was having to try so hard to get it drifting!*

*This logic may only apply if you have the mental age of a 12 year old.

pacemaker - you are right in what you say, TC and ESP have different objectives, but they are part of the same system so to speak.

Don't really get why anyone would drive about every day with traction control on, and then switch it off during the exact conditions it is designed to help in. 😕

You have less inputs, less control and probably react slower than those "electronics".

Relying on them is dumb, but I'd rather have them to back me up than keep them switched off for misplaced machismo.
See also: seatbelts, airbags, ABS

TC on, definitely. Very steep hill near me, when it's iced up it's impossible to cars without 4WD or traction control. Turning it off results in a backwards slither to the bottom.

ESP seems to be handy for getting round sharp icy corners going uphill without losing traction - spin the steering wheel and about half a second later the car turns quite neatly.

Having seen the Fifth Gear demo I would never consider turning ESP off for normal driving. In fact, on the last Ford I drove it would re-arm automatically above 40MPH and even if disabled would react in the event of a spin with the brake pedal depressed.

just floor it.

Got a 4 wheel drive VW van and I leave all the gizmos on and recently have had to lock the diffs too, but must admit with winter tyres on driving at the mo is a hoot. p.s. with gizmos off managed some lovely on-the-spot "doughnuts" in a local deserted carpark - do we never grow up?

lol @ paddy!

Snow chains ,better than all the electronic gizmos

Lower your psi. Or just go for a ride.

The tc on my missus's new Alto got her home today up hills where many cars slid to a halt. Equally I have a mates Jag outside which wouldn't move . who cares? I drove 50 miles each way today to go up the Brecon Beacons. Suzuki Jimny in 4wd and road tyres. Just been out and felt smug that the Landy 110 pulled off where jap pickups were sliding. 😆

I've a 12 yr old big heavy automatic car with quite wide tyres & some sort of traction control thingy

bloody awful in snow/ice. TC off is better, but still hardly any real "clutch" control.

Wow, I'm in awe...you're all such great drivers 😛

Check out this, I suspect the narrator might be a Subaru fanboi, and talks shite, but very interesting video

[url]

good tyres or snow chains

Snow chains ,better than all the electronic gizmos

Rubbish on UK roads where main roads may be completely clear but side streets are not - as you're not supposed to use them on cleared roads.

Also no use when you suddenly need grip on a patch of blown snow on an otherwise clear road (as caught me out today).

Plus you're limited to 30mph.

i hover above the snow on a cushion of smug superiority induced by thinking regularly about how great a driver I am compared to mere humans who struggle to cope with the conditions wrought by natural climate change

Suppose it may differ from vehicle to vehicle but here is the merc line and it follows pacemaker quite closely. Appreciate that mercs are RWD

TC/ASR This is what is says on the tin. Itsa tractioncontrol or anti skid/slip reduction. Basically it will detect when one of the wheels is spinning dissproportionately to its opposite wheel and will brake the wheel which has MOST traction. Imagine nailing it around a roundabout and lifting the inside wheel. It will detect this and brake the wheel getting drive untill the other wheel has enough traction. This is brilliant in 99% of cicumstances BUT useless if you are stuck in snow or mud. It will detect the spin and actually brake the wheel getting drive so in effect slow you down. Getting up a hill will be impossible. I actually took a VW T5 into the show field at Hit the North. It got stuck and kind peeps tried to give it a push. They started getting annoyed when they said i kept stopping. It wasnt untill i noticed the ASR button that i cottoned on and turned it off. So if you want to get out of a stuck situation then ASR/TC off. I dont turn it off unless i get in a situation where i know this is important as otherwise its a blooming good indicator of road conditions as you get a warning light on the dash.

ESP - Well this is basically Electronic Stability Programme. It doesnt usually have a switch to turn it off as it is working all the time. it works on the Steering/brakes and inertia of the vehicle. Imagine driving around a muddy bend too fast. You are turning right but the muddy conditions mean the car is actually travelling straight on. This is detected and controls throttle and all four brakes to go the way you are steering. There would be little point in turning this off to gain more traction as it probably wouldnt even be doing anything in a stuck situation.

Me i would switch the asr/tc off to get going then switch every thing back on as soon as you get going

In my experience I found the best TC system is a RWD manual car, hold the clutch and throttle steady. Use the ye'olde handbrake for traction control and balance it off the throttle.

Me i would switch the asr/tc off to get going then switch every thing back on as soon as you get going

seems fair. I can't say I've noticed it holding me back when I'm getting going, but then I haven't got properly stuck yet.
So far just pulling away carefully in second has always got me moving on the snow.

I [I]might[/I] consider flicking it off temporarily if I thought it would help in that particular situation. But it would be set back on immediately as soon as I was moving.

As goan said, if it activates, you're driving wrong, or you're just messing about. The only time mine lights up is when I want it to.

Setting off in icy conditions should be done in second gear if it's really slippy.If you've got a big old 2 litre diesel, all you need to do is gently lift your foot off the clutch, you don't need the accelerator until you're moving.

Same with braking, slowing down in snow and ice should be done with the engine, if you really *must* brake, kiss the pedal like your were licking snowflakes off connie's tummy. (again, unless you're just messing about in which case bang it)

As goan said, if it activates, you're driving wrong, or you're just messing about.

Overtaking two HGVs on the dual carriagway today.
The road had been completely cleared and was wet, but both lanes were free from snow and had been for miles.

I'm alongside the second HGV when we suddenly get to a patch where a decent pile of snow has obviously been blown across the lane from the central reservation.

I see it but can't brake, cos I might skid and there is someone close behind me anyway. I can't pull in because of the HGVs alongside. So all I can do is hold the wheel firmly, hit the snow at speed and hope the TC does its job (which it did without too much drama).

I don't think I was particularly "driving wrong". It was just unfortunate conditions really. But either way I was glad to have TC switched on!

But you're perfectly capable of driving without it, yes? You'd feel the wheels slip and lighten up a bit until they bit again. ABS rocks hugely but I'm still not convinced that traction control offers that much to most people.

Well I'm not sure in that situation, where suddenly only one side was on snow, whether the car would have stayed straight without TC.
And get squirelly would have meant, best case, scraping against the HGV. 😮

As goan said, if it activates, you're driving wrong, or you're just messing about. The only time mine lights up is when I want it to.

What a load of bo11ocks . . .

The system that controls traction power distribution to the wheels is something that you CANNOT control in the same way with the 3 pedals you have at your feet . . .

TC/Stability control can vary power to each driven wheel independently and retardation to all wheels independently, it understands yaw, yaw rate, steering angle, individual wheel grip levels . . . that is not possible with a clutch, throttle, brake and steering wheel . . . no matter how big your ego . . .

If you think you can do better than a properly developed TC system, I'll lay 1000 quid on the table right now that says you cannot . . . and I will be 1000 quid better off every time you take the challenge . . .

I drive competitively and am certainly an average driver (class winner in Scotland for the last 2 years), and I know (from datalogger data) that TC and LC systems are better than I am, the people I compete with (who are also at least average drivers - all of whom are class or championship winning drivers) would all agree with me . . . it's very difficult or impossible to beat TC . . .

This is what I am talking about . .

and real TC at 60 seconds here . . .

I don't drive with TC, but that time will come . . . on the road I wouldn't be without it . . .

The same abilities principles apply to snow/ice/whatever you like . . .

Only the deluded think they are better . . .

**** me that looks like fun!

@ fergusd - awesome driving dude - that would shit me right up - that road looks too narrow to be doing something like that.

However, you obviously don't realise we are talking about Goan here (aka Smee and I believe glupton). He is actually better than most people at most things. He pulls an awesome 2k split on an ergo, he runs nigh on championship winning times in a half marathon. But, driving and biking are where he transcends mere mortality.

Of course, some would say he be a fillet-o-shit but I'm not doubting him for one second.

For the record, I'm with the "I wouldn't drive without TC" crowd but I'm only human.

The original question was about moving off in snow, not travelling at speed.

I say experiment; not all cars behave the same. I alternate between a Vectra and an AUDI and the Vauxhall is universally shite in the snow, the AUDI being mostly OK, but the electronics can be hoodwinked in some conditions. If this happens they eventually switch themselves off anyway because the brakes get hot. AUDI instruction book says switch off if it's really slippy, an I guess they've thought about it.

Traction control I have something on my VW transporter T5 called ASR which makes it a totally crap motor in snow or wet grass .
I first realised when towing the landy trialer to events , it brakes the wheel that is spinning so you slow down and lose momentum

turn it off and it is a whole lot better .

I dont know how it helps when normal driving though

DD - get over yourself.

fergusd - we're talking about moving off from a stop, not racing so what you are saying is irrelevant. You over corrected your slide and your reaction to sliding was to lift off too....

DD - get over yourself.

Well glupton, seeing as you are brilliant at most things that you do, I'm looking for a superhero slot to fill...seems you've got most of 'em filled. I've decided that my alter ego will be Mr Bullshitfinder (as opposed to, say, Mr. Bullshit. Smee, do you know anyone that might like to be Mr. Bullshit?).

My bullshit-o-meter needle is currently flicking into the red zone 😯

[i]What a load of bo11ocks . . .

The system that controls traction power distribution....[/i]

All very interesting but you should try and boost your reading skills up to the same level as your driving ones.This is not about who is the better driver or who might be as good as traction control. I'm sure you're a much better driver than me, however, if during normal driving conditions you get yourself into a situation when traction control is needed, then you've done it wrong in the first place.

DD - I'm not surprised your bullshitometer is in the red zone given what you've just typed....

[i]I'm certain it helps once you are moving but for getting going are you better banging it in third and easing it away without, or relying on the TC to do it's thing in 2nd?[/i]

If it engages whilst trying to pull away disable it and then once moving enable it.

[i]You have to love the armchair 'driving purists' on here.

ESP will be running ~ 200 times per second and is best placed to know what the vehicle is doing. On definitely. [/i]

Whilst it calculates it isn't active and you don't definitely want it on for pulling away. Now go and sit down.

[img] [/img]

Although i'm not sure which one of you it is!

My view is... you get in the V70, turn on the seat heaters, press winter on the auto box and then drive normally other than braking a bit gently. And it takes 3 bikes in the boot!

If that's the traction control then V70 FTW!

I love these threads! 🙂

I've never owned a car with TC, although I have driven one a lot (VW Eos). Now, in normal (Non-snowy) conditions, if found said car handled better at extremes with it turned off: When it's on the damned thing was lurching all over the place if I tried anything, err, exuberant shall we say? And I hated it. Turn it off and everything goes smooth again. Sure, the car slides, but I'm OK with that, and quite happy to provoke traction loss for fun, for own use... 🙂
See now let me explain, im MY 'misspent' youth, I used to go fishing a lot. And this entails driving down long rough gravel tracks, in fields, allsorts. That's where my mates and I learned silly tricks in our cheap cars. Handbrakes, J-turns, reverse flicks. Because it's fun and stupid and harming nobody. 🙂
Then I did a LOT of driving offroad at work in various vehicles from Astra vans, and Landrovers to big CAT loading shovels and the like. I can assure you it's possible to 4-wheel drift a 26-tonne loading shovel in the right circumstances!
My dad was also a fairly decent rally driver. I've been in a car with him sideways a few times too. So it seemed natural to me when I started driving....
Maybe I was lucky to have this experience, maybe you think I'm nuts or some sort of big-headed twunt, but the fact is I can now control a sliding car. I don't freeze up and shit myself, it's just a normal thing to do to me, and I can only remember one slide I wasn't expecting (I span on the road and got away with it!) but I was a very new driver at the time and hadn't sussed it all out properly. My dad also commented years later that said car (E-reg Nissan Micra) was a shocking handler anyway. Ho-Hum.... You only learn where the limit is when you pass it! 😉

As a result of all my years of stupidity, I don't get caught out any more. Snow driving doesn't phase me and gettting older and having bills to pay means I take it steady when it's icy mostly anyway. If there's nobody around, I might have some fun with wheelspin or whip round a corner on the handbrake, just to keep myself sharp... 😉
I'd like to see how TC works in the snow, but I can't see it being a major benefit, TBH.

Best 'snow car' I ever had was my 1990 Fiat Panda. Little skinny 135 tyres, front wheel drive, superb! We had some heavy snow the first year i had it and I well remember towing a mates bigger car out of piled up snow at the side of the road and bump starting him down the street with it. Impressive! The old 4x4 Panda must be simply awsome in snow! 🙂

ABS rocks hugely

In some conditions and on some cars, certainly. In an overly cautious Peugeot though, it simply turned the brakes off on icy hills. Not quite what's needed with a sharp left hander and a wall at the bottom. Having driven down the same hill on ice over the years with Ford's and VW's ABS, they're better, but still nowhere near as controllable as me deciding when I want to at least attempt to stop in my old escort (The pug's ABS wouldn't let me stop at all!)

In pretty much any other condition than sheet ice though, ABS does indeed rock

doesnt traction control provide power to the wheel or wheels that are losing or have lost grip ? if you have no grip then how can you split no grip to 4 wheels which would result in loss of power to all wheels? at least with TC off u can control what your doing.

i have an 05 Subaru STI and have just set the DCCD to one click off fully locked and switch the Auto control off. its been great and i have had hardly an issues in the snow.

Coming back over the moors from Scarboro earlier in the year in pretty bad snow I reached the conclusion that the best way to get going on the steeper sections (I wouldn't have been stopped ideally but too many cars were pissing about/stuck in front) was to leave the TC on, foot to the floor, steering wheel left/right slowly all the time - gradually hauled me up. Grande Punto diesel btw - it earned it's money that day! On the flat you shouldn't really need it to get going I don't think, but I'd still be leaving it on.

grand punto's are FWD and should be better in snow, think of the poor bmw drivers 😀

[i]think of the poor bmw drivers[/i]

My heart bleeds. 😉

Snow driving?

Find another way other than driving - stay indoors and be merry!

it's my understanding, and I could be entirely wrong, that TC controls power to the wheels not by varying individual power being applied to each wheel but by applying the brakes on the wheels that are spinning (as well as retarding the engine when it's going mad).

Drive a BMW in reverse to get up a snowy hill.

back to the OP. I live on a steep cul de sac, which currently has about 3 inches of hardpacked snow and has had for days. I am currently driving a new Mondeo (new company car on order, this is a stopgap). I have found that if i leave the TC on, the revs drop and the car grinds to a halt. If I switch it off then I can gun it in 2nd, get the speed up and get up the road. Am I doing something wrong ?

As soon as I get onto the normal road i put it straight back on..

Drac - you seem to have taken some kind of offense to my comment.

I'm genuinely interested to know what level of knowledge and experience you have of working with ESP and TC systems?

If you think about how TC works (AFAIK) - loss of grip=power drop, then driving on an almost frictionless surface is likely to wreak havoc with it. Similarly for ABS

woody is correct - TC and ABS will both struggle with severe loss of traction. They do the best they can - but ultimately if there is no traction then it can't "magic" grip from out of nowhere.

And just to confirm ESP is different from TC - if your car has TC then it doesn't necessarily have ESP.

I've owned cars with ESP, ASR, TC etc.

The ESP was quite effective in damp conditions, but if I wanted to really press on it could be quite intrusive.

With very little grip available then the systems are better switched off when setting off.

As Samuri says, when driving well on the road there are very few occasions that it is actually useful.

My current car has no TC/ESP or the like and I don't miss it.

ps. Learn to ride a motorbike properly and your driving will improve a lot.

[i]Drac - you seem to have taken some kind of offense to my comment.

I'm genuinely interested to know what level of knowledge and experience you have of working with ESP and TC systems? [/i]

No offence by it, just you seemed to think no one knew what they were on about. Working with do you mean engineering side or mechanical the answer to either of those is none. Driving with them on vehicles in proper snowing conditions then lots.

The question was simple, should he switch if off when pulling away. The answer was simple too, yes if it engages itself when he's trying to pull away.

it's my understanding, and I could be entirely wrong, that TC controls power to the wheels not by varying individual power being applied to each wheel but by applying the brakes on the wheels that are spinning (as well as retarding the engine when it's going mad).

Focus manual says this:

At speeds below 53 mph (85 km/h), both the engine and the brake system will be used to control wheel spin; at speeds above 53 mph (85 km/h), only engine torque reduction is used. When the Traction Control™ system is switched off, the braking system will still be used to control wheel spin at speeds below 25 mph (40 km/h).

which is a bit wooly really 😕

I might have some fun with wheelspin or whip round a corner on the handbrake, just to keep myself sharp...
I'd like to see how TC works in the snow, but I can't see it being a major benefit, TBH.

Well yeah if you're looking to deliberately drift or slide the car then TC is probably going to be working against you. But I assumed we were talking about braving the snow to nip down the A38 and get some biscuits from ASDA, not competing in the World Rally Championship in snowy forest in Finland. 😀