[Closed] Slutwalking?

Some men and women do like to be dominated, (etc)

That's a whole other discussion but,

a) I'd suggest that this isn't generally a first-date / one night stand issue. I know many people of... shall we say "non-standard" sexuality and I can say with some authority that the core component is invariably trust. If I "went back to her place" with a girl and she told me all about her date-rape fantasy, the only thing I'd be beating would be a hasty retreat.

b) generally, if you were walking the darker path, you'd have safeguards in place. A safe word for instance, so you can scream "no, stop" as much as you like with both parties safe in the knowledge that they don't really mean "stop" unless they shout "lemons" or something.

If I shout "lemons" will this thread stop?

no but Elfin and Ernie might come back

*spins 3 times and says "kaesae"*

sorry, my fault. I hadn't noticed it was funny. Looking back at it I can see it was hilarious.

Humour is subjective, as you demonstrate.

Don't see any point in reacting to some of the comments on here, but saddened that so much of it mirrors the debates and arguements that women were having 20 odd years ago but it still hasn't changed. A couple of points to consider though:

- 'common sense' behaviour ie not being out alone at night in the city or not wearing 'skimpy / revealing' clothing. There is a very fine line between what is being suggested as 'common sense' and a legitimate right for women to go about their business. When I was a student in Leeds, 20 odd years ago, there was a series of rapes in the local area and thd police advised women not to go out alone after dark - well it was winter so dark at about 5pm - is that restriction acceptable or a total infringement of women's liberty?

- re 'skimpy clothing' - the last time I got sexual hassle of a group of guys was when I was wearing Lycra shorts and a vest top road riding in hot weather - how far is it acceptable to ask women to choose what they wear so as too avoid unwanted attention?

- if nothing else the years and rape evidence should have shown us that restricting women in either their behaviour, dress, or location will never stop rape from occuring. The only way to reduce the incidence of rape is to put more resources and effort into addressing the causes on rape which centre around a small percentage of men's attitudes towards control and violence towards women.

Humour is subjective, as you demonstrate

Some good points here (thread in general) and some predictable blandness.

This is a typical emotive single issue discussion. The problem is far bigger than cause and effect as it has been made to be. Motives are a good place to start:

Why would a woman choose to dress in such a way? Where are the images of femininity she copies coming from? Why does a man feel he can openly comment, respond or pursue a woman because he feels like it?

We objectify women horrendously, which is then adopted (look up eating disorders, dysmorphia, rise in plastic surgery etc.)and perpetuated. This has become normal and some males feel it is justified to treat females as they wish.

OP, you sound like you don't know anyone who has been sexually abused. It's a pretty good way to fu*k someone up for a very very long time. A number of people close to me have experienced it and the damage takes many years to repair.

As long as we continue to have females objectified and subordinate in our culture, this will happen at the level it does.

Let's fight inflammatory with inflammatory: when a paedophile attacks a child, wasn't the child "asking for it?". Discuss. Still stand by your original point OP?

Rape has been trivialised and our gender stereotypes are ridiculous. people need to be educated and empathetic to one another. But then again surely all the women at the local pool should be wearing these: I swear they were all GAGGING for it.
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Junkyard +1.

CM, your performance on this thread has been a bit of a shame really.

Some men and women do like to be dominated, (etc)

I've been avoiding this thread because it's such a highly emotional topic and you lot argue anything but the comments you've made in your post edukator actually made me blow my top for the first time since I've been on this forum.. As cougar says sub/Dom activity (which is what you are making reference to) is such a different topic, your comment is incredible. You clearly know nothing about BDSM. there is an absolute difference between someone choosing to be dominated or dominating as part of a lifestyle choice and someone being forced to have sex with someone against their WILL. Way off the mark

Herman Shake - well put. I would also add that it isn't just related to recent images / stereotypes of what is considered 'feminine'. Our culture is historically founded on the subjugation of women. For example it is only fairly recently been recognised that 'wifes' can be raped by their husbands, as for a long time our society decreed that in marrying a women gave a man the right to have sex with her any time her wanted to, whether she consented or not.

my questions have only ever been to try to get to the root of people's difference in beliefs. It helps the discussion and avoids bickering if the crux of the disagreement can be identified. They might not have been the most incisive of questions, but I have tried to answer the questions asked of me. if mine were banal,then they could be answered simply.

i really don't mean to troll, but i really can't see anything wrong with my line of questions. I've had some elss than kind response directed at me, and have tried to respond appropriately. It would be a formative experience for me if DD or JY could point out where i have acted shamefully.

Interesting thread

Rape is an incredibly emotive subject and I'm yet to meet anyone who doesnt have a strong opinion on it... in fact even though i sometimes work with rapists as part of my job I'm still yet to meet someone who doesnt think its wrong. So maybe the people arguing can take a breath and remember we all think rape is wrong and the effects are horrendous.

Men get raped too, a lot more than is reported. Consider all the prisons in the worlds and the gay community plus the rape of men by women. I'm under the impression that female victim numbers are (and if you consider all the cultures in which women don't get a say in sex) higher, I'm guessing it will probably always be higher 🙁 The fact it happens at all is upsetting, so before reacting please remember all I'm attempting to point out is that this thread has created the impression that rape is nearly always a man-rapes-woman situation, statistics would suggest so but:

Personally I'm son of, brother to and friends of close to ten ladies/girls who have been raped. I've cared for (in my job) many women who have been raped and several men (mainly from the gay community, a couple from the prison services). One of my closest friends was raped by a girl as his "first time". So in my 'real life' experience of rape the numbers of men and women who have been raped is much much closer than any stats would suggest... just something to consider?

Most of those people were raped by people they knew and the clothes they were wearing at the times, from what I understand of their stories, had nothing to do with the rape... neither was wandering around drunk at 3am.

With regards to objectifying women, the western culture (the one of which I am most familiar) seems to still find it socially acceptable. Pornography is more accessible than ever with the internet and free websites streaming hardcore content. A lot .. well I'll go out on a limb and assume most pornography is written and directed by men, the content reflects a very male dominant mindset... If conversations with young guys are anything to go, by their perception of good sex revolves around acts in which the men are dominant the the women perform degrading/submissive acts... that can't be a healthy sign for the future?

Lots of opinion going on but not much to back it up.

http://www.cer.truthaboutrape.co.uk/3.html

If we're discussing the 'she was asking for it as she was dressed like a slut' type of rape (to go back to the OP and the link to Slutwalking) then I was surprised that 97% of callers to Rape Crisis lines knew their assailants and by the look of the other stats on the site most woke up next to him the previous morning.

EDIT cannot get link to work

Can anyone go along to these walks as a spectator?

probably not worth it...

[img] http://www.flickr.com/photos/hc916/5608075672/sizes/m/in/photostream/ [/img]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hc916/5608075672/sizes/m/in/photostream/

There is a very fine line between what is being suggested as 'common sense' and a legitimate right for women to go about their business.

Absolutely.

police advised women not to go out alone after dark ... is that restriction acceptable or a total infringement of women's liberty?

It's neither. It's advice. Had they followed up with "so you're all under curfew and if you're seen on the streets you'll be arrested" then you're into liberty infringement territory. I don't really see that "look, there's a rapist at large, you might want to take a few extra precautions until we catch the bugger" is a restriction in any way; would you prefer that they'd said nowt and the criminal had subsequently claimed a few more victims instead?

Honestly. If the police advised me not to wear shorts for a couple of weeks in case I got forcibly dry-bummed by a passing lunatic, I'd be going out in motorcycle leathers with a metal tea-tray stuffed down my pants.

giantalkali - Member

probably not worth it...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hc916/5608075672/sizes/m/in/photostream/

I don't know, check out the legs on her on the right..And the double chin on the bloke? Phwoar!

I'd be going out in motorcycle leathers with a metal tea-tray stuffed down my pants.

genuine lol 😆 what a vision 🙂

giantalkali- Absolutely. Most women rape victims are raped by someone they know (born out by the stats).

It is a crime of power... not about sex. Thus it is largely irrelevent what a woman is wearing. I think this debate is a function of how defence lawers defend their clients. In court they will say anything to discredit the sexual character of the victim.

Until only fairly recently, spousal rape and homosexual rape was not recognised in law. Thankfully this has changed. However, surely as our definition of rape has expanded then so *should* have conviction rates. Sadly this isn't the case. The simple truth being that it is very easy to accuse whilst paradoxically being extremely difficult to prove.

giantalkali- Absolutely. Most women rape victims are raped by someone they know (born out by the stats).

It is a crime of power... not about sex. Thus it is largely irrelevent what a woman is wearing.

OK fine - I wondered about that way back in the thread. Am I still allowed to think that dressing in a way that panders to male sexual objectification isn't particularly healthy (while defending women's right to do that if they really want), or does that make me a rapist?

Herman Shake - well put.

What, hysterical nonsense like this?

Let's fight inflammatory with inflammatory: when a paedophile attacks a child, wasn't the child "asking for it?". Discuss. Still stand by your original point OP?

what a vision

Hey, don't oppress me, I'll wear what I like!!

nice one jackson, there's a lot of high horses and trolls and not much in the way of considered thought going on here.

I could've taken a shortcut home the other night, but on reaching the entrance to a narrow and ill lit passage I thought, 'No, looks a bit rapey' and took the long way. I still arrived dripping wet and panting though...

most pornography is written and directed by men, the content reflects a very male dominant mindset

There's a reason for that other than sexism though, it's genetic. [i]Generally [/i]speaking, men are more responsive to visual stimuli, whereas women are more predisposed to words and emotions. There are exceptions of course.

No it doesn't. It makes your argument ridiculous.[i]Reductio ad absudum[/i]

You can think what you like about how a woman dresses, but short skirts/tight tops etc. seems (statistically at least)to have little effect on the risk of rape.

But comparing theft/burglary to rape? Are you serious??

Well why don't you make the difference clear to me

But comparing theft/burglary to rape? Are you serious??

I felt this was provocative and not well-spirited. i wanted him to clarify the points in which rape and burglary were different, after which we could explore the bits that were the same and see if we could work on the issues of susceptibility.

The choosing not to explain the difference, was choosing not to engage in a discussion in which the he had made some claims and patronised folks for not accepting them. Something he does regularly, yet returns to speak with authority

Marty, to the DeLorean, we've gone Back To Two Pages Ago!

mine? No, i was responding to the post above mine, and i think junkyard was responding to my post on the previous page

Both you and Cougar have missed my point completely Emma. No I am not talking about ritualised BDSM with "safe words" to make the experience safe, thus removing any excitement for anyone seeking something unsafe. "Trust" has nothing to do with it either.

Rather than get angry about what I've written try browsing the psychology section of a public library. This will prove more enlightening than typing key words into Google picture unsafe search. I expected a knee jerk reaction rather than thought from some which is why I started with "Now something that won't go down as well with some".

As this clearly isn't the place for cool-headed, detached debate I'll go back to posting on politics and the environment.

Whilst I take your point (now), I can assure you that I don't need to visit a library for enlightenment, I know plenty of enlightening people.

And a couple of fairly 'unsafe' ones, come to that.

I felt this was provocative and not well-spirited

No it doesn't. It makes your argument ridiculous.Reductio ad absudum

I know, I'm just joining in with the general spirit of the thread.

typing key words into Google picture unsafe search.

What key words do you think I typed in then?

I think you are trying to say that there are some people who 'like' to be abused so if you go home with one of those people then they 'cry' rape that's your own fault. I took issue with what you said because there is a big a difference between being dominated and being assaulted. People who I think you are referring to who might be seeking it are very unlikely to 'like' it, there will be a multitude of reasons behind them wanting the abuse and none of them positive. Someone who wants to be dominated or 'mistreated' (which is where I mentioned BDSM) because they actually enjoy it are unlikely to seek it then 'cry' rape. It's use of the word 'like' in that sentence that annoyed me. I know a few women who have followed abuse. It's devastating for them, they need it, attract it and sadly wont ever be away from it but they don't 'like' it. Sorry if I'm still missing the point but it's the word 'like' that I really didn't like.

fighting fire with fire was not wise and did not come over well. Far better to have said what you said above as a response than what you did post.

shuddup!

emma82 > nail / head.

Honestly. If the police advised me not to wear shorts for a couple of weeks in case I got forcibly dry-bummed by a passing lunatic, I'd be going out in motorcycle leathers with a metal tea-tray stuffed down my pants.

I think you'd be safer if you just wore the leathers ?
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You'll get some nasty friction burns there.

Turned into an interesting one after all, then a bit bitchy at the end. Worth a read.

Did no-one else notice the spate of releases of convicted rapists in the USA (and elsewhere) when DNA testing became avaibable? Type "rapist cleared by DNA results" into Google and you'll come up with tens of cases mainly concerning American blacks (waits to be flamed for racism for making this observation). The intriguing thing is that the evidence often also points to the real culprits and shows that there are a small number of serial rapists rather than lots of rapists in society. And some inexplicable cases.

In X% of US cases where rape charges are brought the primary suspect (often as identified by the victim) is cleared by DNA Testing (you Google for X). Some were raped but failed to correctly identify their assailant. Some though were simply false claims. Of the 100 - X% of cases where the DNA did match is it so unreasonable to think that some are also false claims where the real victim is the guy charged because the lady can't face admitting that she had socially unacceptable sex with a socially unacceptable partner for socially unacceptable reasons. It's not as black and white as the feminist groups that claim only 2% false claims would have us believe.

[url= http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt ]This report[/url] makes fascinating reading. Whilst in some cases the police simply got the wrong man in others it's clear to me that the police and victim conspired to produce damning evidence to convict an innocent for reasons only known to the police and the "victim".

Oh, and I still think that women should be able to wear what they like without it being a justification for unacceptable male behaviour.

Grum, comparison of ideas with hyperbole is not hysterical unless you read it as such. I've taken one area which is as frowned upon as the other and applied the same misguided opinion which seems emotive.

It was intentionally provocative (maybe I was asking for it...) but you appear to have misconstrued the point. The comparison is that it would be ridiculous to imagine the second example, as it is to consider in the original topic. Had you read the rest or are you just picking holes?

It's a textbook method of measuring ethics, quite the opposite of hysterical.

Perhaps IMF boss DSK should have read my above post before visiting the USA.

Well, what do you think? Did DSK do it, is he the victim of a gold diger or the victim of a consiracy?

Personally I'm having a great deal of trouble believing an old man managed to force a 32-year-old American chamber maid to give him a blow job. Doesn't she have teeth?

Edit: My wife was talking with a business man that does business in the USA this morning. He takes care never to be alone in the company of a woman in America. To the point of getting out of a lift if he is in one and a woman gets in. Too many gold diggers willing to accuse of sexual assault to make a fast buck.

Maybe he had a gun.

That would figure in the charges if he had, Cougar. No mention of a gun or any other weapon.

Maybe he told her he had a gun.