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How would you feel if a politician that wants your vote tells you the things you don’t believe; are in fact true?
Well it depends if they are true or not.
What he should be doing is pointing out that brexit wasnt the answer to their issues and explaining why and then saying what he will do to fix it.
Point out what the actual levels were and the impact. Yes those communities were screwed over but brexit wasnt the answer.
By burying the head in the sand isnt pragmatism its surrender. If an alternative isnt provided then the lies become the norm and then the pushers get to push the balance even further.
I don’t think Brexit (tory or otherwise) has made that much difference to them.I don’t think Brexit (tory or otherwise) has made that much difference to them.
They're waiting longer for hospital treatment. 130 000 unfilled vacancies of which some undeniably created by EU workers leaving the UK.
They're paying more for food, disproportionately more than EU residents because the pound has fallen making imports more expensive and there are shortages due to driver shortages since the EU drivers went home. Some home grown foods rot in fields because there are no EU workers to pick them. 80% of Britains excess in inflation compared to the EU has been attributed to Brexit.
People have lost there jobs in various industries which have lost EU work. Higher unemployment inevitably leads to lower wages, it's supply and demand. There aren't enough nurses but people in the city and some industries have lost there jobs. Traders unforunately don't seem willing to retrain as doctors or nurses. Trade in goods is down in real terms and well below what it would have been if Britain had remained in the EU. That's lost jobs. Various studies show Britain has become less competetive, againthat means lost jobs.
Going to the seaside you're more likely to find the bathing beach closed due to pollution.
You're in denial about Brexit, Dazh. IIRC correctly you were one of the first to say you'd vote against but then joined the Brexit-apologist-will-of-the-people gang and have now entered a phase of denial. I don't know where you go from here, you've cornered yourself as your denialist position is less and less tenable as events unfold and Brits become poorer - as predicted.
But rejoining the EU is half a generation away, not in the next election. Labour need to win the next election and it will be fought on the cost of living not Brexit.
All true Ed. It's not Dazh that's in denial though, it's the people he's talking about. It'll take a decade of this shit (sometimes literally shit) before the emotional heat is taken out of the Brexit debate, and the UK (what's left of it) can start properly engaging with what it has done and how to put it right. Alignment and closer cooperation as a non EU member is where we'll end up, but Labour fighting an election on that in the near future would be political suicide in England. They're proposing baby steps though... trying to sort out the mess on vets, animal and food standards and checks first... which happens to be essential for NI even more than GB. Conservatives will just push divergence out of dogma for another 5 years if they win, making everything harder to resolve longer term.
Well it depends if they are true or not.
Mleh, internet answer. You know full well what the reaction to politicians telling people things that they think are true that you don't. I would bet money that you'd reject out of hand anything a Tory told you that turned out to be true, in fact you'd be going out of your way to try to find the evidence that it wasn't true just because it's a Tory telling you.
And in the meantime labour continues to lose ground in Scotland, in the south of england, in london and in all remain areas.
He is also making the breakup of the UK more likely
there is no solution to NI without a customs border somewhere or rejoining the single market. So by taking this line he is driving people in NI towards a united ireland
His pandering to racists and refusing to even talk about closer co operation with the EU gives the SNP great attack lines making independence more likely
Labour need to win the next election and it will be fought on the cost of living not Brexit.
There is no solution to the cost of living without closer co operation with the EU
His pandering to racists
How do they count the votes of racists differently to those who aren't racist?
The higher cost of living rise than the EU is Brexit. Or 80% of it is. And the best way to address that is a Swiss type deal which has been suggested by the EU so is most definitely possible. Starmer needs the courage to negotiate a Swiss type deal with the EU and then stand on that basis at the next election. Polls say it would be more likely to win than lose an election; Uk polls put rejoin ahead and EU polls say the majority would support or not object to Britian returing to the fold.
So why isn’t he appeasing racists like many other European politicians and political leaders, some of them in office, currently do?
He is hence his remarks on immigration and his acceptance of the racist mayoral campaign from Burnham
There is no solution to the cost of living without closer co operation with the EU
Agreed. Everyone will get to that point eventually. How much closer will be the debate in future.
And the best way to address that is a Swiss type deal which has been suggested by the EU so is most definitely possible.
Agreed. Something akin to that any way. But you're an election ahead of us there Ed. The EU have said talks on such a change won't happen 'till 24/25 at the earliest. The result of that can be put to the public in the election that follows that, if it goes well.
So Labour needs to be in power by 24/25 when talks will take place, and with a mandate to negotiate a Swiss type deal. That means campaigning on that basis now. Labour needs to convince people that the sooner they are in power the sooner the worst of the Brexit pain can be reduced. We know it's going to take years but the time for Labour to take the decision is now.
Starmer having the same attitude to Brexit as the Tories makes no political sense at all. Starmer doesn't understand the word "opposition".
There is no solution to the cost of living without closer co operation with the EU
Not true, there are many solutions that have no requirement to be closer to the EU. It just needs a government who actually wants to do anything.
A lot of things would be easier if closer to EU but you are being way too black and white on this whole 'can't do anything without EU' line
So how are you going to solve the compounding billions lost to the economy? How are you going to solve the increased inflation / falling £?
The International Economic Review estimates that Brexit has increased consumer prices by 2.9%, and in turn cost the average household £870 per year.
You can't do anything about that without the EU. What do you suggest the government do if it actually wants to do anything, Kerley? Post your ideas here and send them to Starmer because he doesn't have any that stand up to scrutiny. Everything he's suggested that I've seen is either inflationary (hence counterproductive) or relies on redistributing a declining pool of wealth.
So how are you going to solve the compounding billions lost to the economy?
Will post this again as I believe it answers your question. We're moving back into a postwar economic landscape where govts raid savers in order to inflate away the national debt. The result will be massive capital investment which if labour are smart will create millions of high paying jobs and drive economic growth.
https://themarket.ch/interview/russell-napier-the-world-will-experience-a-capex-boom-ld.7606
And you really think that a Britain cut off from Europe is where that capital will be invested? If I were a corporate boss I'd be looking for places with excellent border-free communication within in a big trading block with a pool of skilled workers. Britain was where car plants got built in the 70s and 80s. Poland, Berlin, Valencienne are the places chosen for investment recently.
Russell Napier's crystal ball may not be 100% reliable.
And you really think that a Britain cut off from Europe is where that capital will be invested?
The whole point of financial repression is that the govt has the power to direct the money to where it's needed. In many cases the money is coming directly from the govt. Why would the UK govt not direct that investment towards the UK economy?
He is hence his remarks on immigration and his acceptance of the racist mayoral campaign from Burnham
LOL! I love the way you constantly see racism wherever and whenever it suits your personal narrative TJ!
I remember a time when you were consistently claiming on here that there was absolutely no chance of Rishi Sunak becoming leader of the Conservative Party as the Tory Party was a racist party and under no circumstances would they have a nonwhite leader.
You need to ease off this obsession with accusation of racism to explain anything which you don't fully understand.
It might give a simple and easy if somewhat false explanation but more importantly it undermines the focus on real racism, such as the UK's racist immigration and nationality laws and appalling scandals such as the treatment of the Windrush Generation and Grenfell Tower victims.
I remember a time when you were consistently claiming on here that there was absolutely no chance of Rishi Sunak becoming leader of the Conservative Party as the Tory Party was a racist party and under no circumstances would they have a nonwhite leader.
He said the members wouldn't elect him leader. And they didn't. They picked Liz Truss over him. Liz Truss!
Britian isn't a soviet style command economy. Take out education and health and the Government contribution to investment is tiny compared with corporate investment. Keysian economics has its limits. Stimulus will only provide so much growth. In the US in the 30s all that Keynsian stimulus didn't have much impact, it was putting the economy on a war footing that changed things. Not a local theatre war, a full on world war. Theatre wars don't have much impact, think Vietnam, various Gulf wars... . The UK government can provide stimulus through infrastructure projects (but probably won't given Labour's manifesto). It would take something like renewing a significant part of the housing stock to make much difference and they won't.
The UK government can provide stimulus through infrastructure projects (but probably won’t given Labour’s manifesto).
There hasn't been a manifesto published yet. Labour has already committed to huge investment in renewable energy production and insulating homes.
In the absence of a new manifesto I don't think it's unreasonable to use the old one. 😉
You'll forgive me for being sceptical. It's not as if the Tories have been holding back on renewable projects, the offshore wind farms are proof of that. They are viable and private investors are willing partners. NIMBY is a major headwind that I don't see Labour managing better than the Tories. Insulating homes is a very good idea. Slum clearance would be even better. There's only so much that can be done economically with much of the 19th/20th century stock. Even current building regs are way short of imposing energy efficient homes.
He can't touch Brexit until labour are in power. Any sniff the euro, unelected bureaucrats, they come over here..., bendy bananas, and he'll lose the next election
Wot Kelvin said is my position. Unlike you to be inaccurate Ernie
He said the members wouldn’t elect him leader.
No he didn't. He said long before Boris Johnson even resigned that there was absolutely no chance of Rishi Sunak becoming Tory leader because he wasn't white and the Tories are a racist party.
There has been discussions concerning Sunak becoming the next leader of the Tory Party for well over a year. The issue of how that would come about was never discussed, only whether it was likely to happen. TJ dismissed out of hand the possibility of Sunak becoming Tory leader due to the claim that it is a racist party
But thank you for acting on behalf of your client Kelvin and attempting to suggest that TJ doesn't believe that Tory MPs are racists.
thank you for acting on behalf of your client Kelvin
What are you on about?
attempting to suggest that TJ doesn’t believe that Tory MPs are racists
I did what now?
Wot Kelvin
Yes of course TJ, you don't believe that Tory MPs pander to racists, only senior Labour politicians such as Keir Starmer and Andy Burnham do that! LOL 🤣
Edit: Tory Party members must be outraged that Tory MPs choose a nonwhite leader!!
you don’t believe that Tory MPs pander to racists
Lovely straw man there. Best ignored.
What's happened to you, Ernie? From Ché worshiping revolutionary you've gone to bigging up Boris Johnson and Rishi over a number of threads. What with that and your attitude to Brexit I'm beginning to suspect you're an ERG plant. 😉
Oh I'm "bigging up" Sunak now, am I?
What's that based on - the fact that I pointed out that he is leader of the Tory Party and is nonwhite?
Or couldn't you think of anything else to say?
Ernie Oh dear oh dear
i made it quite clear that the only way Sunak would become leader is if he was the only candidate as he was because in a contrested election the membership would vote white. this is exactly what has happened
i have also called out the tory party for their racism on many occasions and its obvious that they do pander to their racist membership and that the parliamentary party is full of racists
really Ernie - unlike you to be so inaccurate.
I made it quite clear that the only way Sunak would become leader is if he was the only candidate
No you didn't. As Mick Lynch would say, you're lying. You said that he would never become leader of the Tory Party full stop. According to you because he isn't white.
Anyway another political thread derailed over brexit and spurious accusations of racism.
Or couldn’t you think of anything else to say?
Plenty of other things I could have said but they would have been serious persoanl criticism and constituted a personal attack which isn't the way we do things on this forum is it? So I made a fairly light hearted quip based on weeks of non-participation but observation of political threads. My quip sums up the impression you have created: Johnson fan, Tory apologist, Labour hater and Rishi enthusiast.
Ernie - please withdraw the accusation of lying
Go back and read the thread if you want to attack me. I have no issue over things I have said . I have huge issue with you making up a total misrepresentation of my position
sorry dude - your memory is letting you down
you’re lying
Ernie, you need to put up a quote with a link to the thread page quickly or I'm reporting that.
I think ernie's just making the point that we shouldnt demonise and vilify politicians we disagree with with false accusations and toxic characterisation
Unless they're Kier Starmer.
Edukator - please don't bother. Its not the right thing to do
OK, TJ.
Britian isn’t a soviet style command economy. Take out education and health and the Government contribution to investment is tiny compared with corporate investment.
Did you read that article I posted? It doesnt need to be a command economy. The govt can control where private investment goes through the use of credit guarantees. The banks are essentially incentivised to loan money to businesses in specific areas of the economy because they know the govt will underwrite any defaults.
"It’s easy for them in the way that credit guarantees are only a contingent liability on the balance sheet of the state. By telling banks how and where to grant guaranteed loans, governments can direct investment where they want it to, be it energy, projects aimed at reducing inequality, or general investments to combat climate change. By guiding the growth of credit and therefore the growth of money, they can control the nominal growth of the economy."
Did you read that article I posted?
Yes, which doesn't mean I agree with his predictions, or even that governments can make that much difference with direct intervention. Governments can do most to stimulate growth by creating the conditions in which businesses can make profits and grow without needing to provide credit guaranteed loans. Banks will lend to viable business models with government guarantees. Brexit was exactly the opposite putting up barriers to trade and reducing the qualified labour supply which mean business projects are no longer viable that would be were Britain stil in the EU.
or even that governments can make that much difference with direct intervention
That seems like a pretty daft statement. In case you hadn't noticed, since 2008 the govt has made a MASSIVE difference through direct intervention. Free markets no longer work, whether we're in the EU or not. You just seem to be in denial because it doesn't fit your 'we must rejoin the EU' opinion.
And you, Dazh, want to blame everything except Brexit and pretend that it's not making any difference - your in denial quote was what drew me in this morning.
Printing money is not the same as the intervention though guaranteed loads to the private sector you were quoting about in you last post. I would argue that the direct intervention only really got underway during Covid. I would describe the period 2008 - 2019 as austerity rather than "MASSIVE difference through direct intervention" which isn't really part of the Tory philosophy, but needs must and Covid was a needed must.
Free markets are the major part of the world economy and working as we type. Goverments can do no more than tinker around the edges because most of the economy runs on basic supply and demand. Have a look around your home and you'll have trouble finding things that weren't born of that system, probably the home itself.
I'm most definitely not saying 'we must rejoin the EU'. I'm in the EU, I'm French and live in France, I'm one of the least affected people on this forum. I'm saying that the UK has done itself a great deal of self harm with Brexit and would benefit from rejoining if only at a Swiss level. Britain has cut off its nose to spite its face and now refuses plastic surgury to sew it back on.
Stimulus will only provide so much growth. In the US in the 30s all that Keynsian stimulus didn’t have much impact, it was putting the economy on a war footing that changed things. Not a local theatre war, a full on world ware.
You've got it back to front - there is no free-market without a source of money issuance. In the big economies with central banks - that usually means state-backed money.
Governments don't have to tinker around the edges - that is what they choose to do. It could be completely different. Supply and demand is what happens after the government spends into the economy.
USA - spends getting close to a trillion on defense. They just created the market.
Free markets are the major part of the world economy and working as we type. Goverments can do no more than tinker around the edges because most of the economy runs on basic supply and demand
This is, to put it mildly, a rather large simplification. Governments intervene massively in the process. Just look at the amount the EU spends on farming subsidies or the huge amounts the USA funnels to companies under the guise of defence spending.
One of the UKs major current issues is it believed the waffle about free markets and hence we are burdened with a bunch of failed energy companies and sod all reserves of gas because having reserves is a waste of money from the centricas viewpoint and so they wanted the normal government subsidies for the "free market".