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Crikey – a stark contrast to…
I think you might have hit the nail on the head and got my point......lots of farting about over PC nonsense hasn't made STW particularly attractive for female contributors. In fact they contribute very significantly less than they ever have. Do you see the irony?
I do - and that's not me being snarky! (Which I freely admit I can be from time to time)
I had to look up "snarky", it turns out that it's an American term which explains why I didn't understand its meaning.
No I'm not angry at all. I'm just making an observation and pointing out the irony of the apparent lack of female contributions on this thread.
Edit: And the lack of coppers. There used to be several that contributed very regularly - pretty much on a daily basis.
It would be nice to get a female perspective from STW, but I’m not sure if any have contributed – I suspect that all 57 voices on this thread have been male?
10-15 years ago female STWers used to contribute a lot to threads but now they rarely seem to. In fact they seem to rarely exist at all – off the top of my head I can only think of 4 who have in recent weeks posted. I wonder if a laddish culture on here is the cause of that?
Also there used to be about at least 4 coppers who regularly posted on STW, I think possibly one copper posted earlier on this thread but I suspect there won’t be any further contributions from them as they might have found the environment too hostile. Shame.
Edit: One of the coppers who regularly posted on STW was “easygirl” iirc. Makes you think.
Laddish culture? I don't think so ernie and would be interested to hear the thoughts of the other ladies on here.
My belief is that Cressida Dick should have been removed from her post as soon as it became clear that she wasn't up to the job. Why wasn't she? Growing up in London the Met always had a poor reputation, nothing has changed. At the end of the day it's just another public service that has been deliberately allowed to fail by a Government that seemingly cares not a jot about the UK and its citizens. Sorry for the cynicism, this is not simply down to bad management.
Laddish culture? I don’t think so ernie and would be interested to hear the thoughts of the other ladies on here.
Well I did wonder as alleged "laddish culture" is often portrayed as an issue on here.
And yes you are right - it would be interesting to hear the thoughts of other ladies. Thanks for turning up, even if it was quite late 😉
I think you might have hit the nail on the head and got my point……lots of farting about over PC nonsense hasn’t made STW particularly attractive for female contributors. In fact they contribute very significantly less than they ever have. Do you see the irony?
Wow. STW is too woke / PC / sensitive and thus putting off women. Thats your argument? Genius
Almost as staggering as your assertion that you do not recognise a word if google says it is of American origin. Even if thats a word i was using in Lancashire in the 70s.
Cressida Dick should have been removed from her post as soon as it became clear that she wasn’t up to the job. Why wasn’t she?
You don't think it was because the Home Secretary felt it was important to have a female as the highest ranking police officer in the UK?
Ultimate she went because of Sadiq Khan, it wasn't really in his remit to sack her but his complete lack of faith in her made it impossible for her to carry on. The head of the Met needs to have the confidence of the Mayor of London.
Background checks are only useful if there is something to show up. If you’ve never been investigated, tried or convicted then what is the check supposed to flag up? There are plenty of bad people hiding in plain sight, whether or not their behaviour gives an indication of their true nature later on is immaterial if they can get in the door.
Good background checks (which are incredibly hard and expensive to do) would look way beyond convictions etc. The next stage is "intelligence" - when they've had reports or heard rumours about someone. They track exactly that sort of intell on drug dealers (and I am sure other crimes). If you want clearance to handle documents above Secret level within the MOD etc you will get an enhanced background check. They will interview people who know you. None of these are infallible of course because sometimes people start off OK and then grow into being a problem, and that's why just checking people on entry is a stupid idea. In a fairly ordinary commercial job I expect my annual appraisal to include my and my teams "behaviours" (across the business its used for all sort of stuff from not giving a **** and laziness to rudeness or bullying). I assume that the Met has something like that in place. But you can bet that either their appraisers write something bland in the box and don't challenge it or there's no follow up from above when its logged (in some case the reason for the "bland" is because writing something useful actually results in a massive shit show for the appraiser because the culture is wrong!).
Maybe that lack of background experience is one of the factors with these 40something Met officers that is less of a concern with younger officers coming through
I encounter a lot of police officers and my inclination is that style / culture of new recruits isn't changing. In fact, my observation (which is not from the Met and will have an inherent bias from the type of officer I deal with) is that as they mature, officers become a bit more sensible, less gung-ho, and more about tackling the problems than just chasing down baddies! Perhaps there are enclaves within the police where 40 something mysoginists tend to collect, and either their attitude or promotion opportunities keep them out of the other units/divisions. It would be hard to believe that senior management would not be aware of the type of culture in those units. It would be hard to imagine that ordinary officers would also not quickly learn of the culture/style of those teams - so I'm not going to retract my comments above that which essentially say if you are not fighting to fix it you are part of the problem. Equally, if your unions are not driving to fix it - are they part of the problem? How many of the people found guilty of misconduct have they helped to save?
Theres about 155,000 police officers in the UK
If a thousand or thereabouts are under investigation, no doubt for a range of alleged offences, probably relating from one extreme to the other, poor driving to murder, which doesn't really show a trend.
So the vast majority are probably and more than likely safe to be around, even in vulnerable situations- even taking into account those whose behaviour hasn't become noticeable to the point its under investigation), but the majority anyway.
Probably a similar risk to flying(joke)
Plus it should always also be noted that they are under obligation to run towards the danger.
Yes it did vaguely cross my mind as I wrote it whether I should use the term “manpower” but because I am not very PC and can’t be arsed to find out what the latest term imported from America is I decided not to worry.
But “very unfortunate choice of words”? I don’t think so. I’m sure that any offended bloke on this thread can deal with it
It's not about 'offending the Guardian reading lefties', though, it's that, if anything, the Met needs more women.
The story of the Met this week is of women who raised allegations and were ignored or not believed, and of men called 'The Rapist' and 'The Bastard' who raped and murdered women, and used their position as police officers to enable them to do so.
There's a very clear issue here, and it would reward some careful thought. And coming over like Jim Davidson going 'what next? Renaming it Personchester United?' doesn't inspire confidence that it's being taken seriously.
Wow. STW is too woke / PC / sensitive and thus putting off women. Thats your argument? Genius
Its an interesting logic!
Almost as staggering as your assertion that you do not recognise a word if google says it is of American origin. Even if thats a word i was using in Lancashire in the 70s.
Keep in mind that Ernie also hesitated to use the word "manpower" but couldn't be bothered to look up the relevant "American imported term" to avoid offence! I wouldn't have described any of these alternatives:
- police officers
- people
- resources
- boots on the ground
as being US derived!
Almost as staggering as your assertion that you do not recognise a word if google says it is of American origin. Even if thats a word i was using in Lancashire in the 70s.
I don't recognise a word that isn't used in circles which I associate with, the fact that it is apparently American helps to explain this - it is the reason.
I am surprised that you find that almost "staggering". Are you usually so easily shocked?
I'm from South London btw, I have no idea what words were in common use in Lancashire in the 70s. There is a similarly sounding word which is "sarky", you might not be shocked to learn that it's a word which I sometimes use.
I love it when discussions focus on what words should be used. It is such an important, and apparently sometimes shocking, subject. That's me being sarky btw 😉
The story of the Met this week is of women who raised allegations and were ignored or not believed
I didn't think it was. I thought they either withdrew their complaints or refused to cooperate with the investigations. When that wasn't the case Carrick was convicted.
Clearly there was a problem but is there any evidence that it was centered on the police not believing the victims? I'm happy to be corrected as I haven't read everything about this case.
That picture on the Marina Hyde link above was interesting for the semi-authorised "Thin Blue Line" badge on the stab vest. That cliquey attitude needs addressing as not they're not much different to a member of the community they are charged with policing by consent.
It is a personal decision to 'other' themselves and it is not helpful for those of a criminal offending disposition.
I didn’t think it was. I thought they either withdrew their complaints or refused to cooperate with the investigations. When that wasn’t the case Carrick was convicted.
Clearly there was a problem but is there any evidence that it was centered on the police not believing the victims? I’m happy to be corrected as I haven’t read everything about this case.
Worth reading this article by Sue Fish, former Nottinghamshire chief constable...
The Met could have stopped police rapist David Carrick – how can it have failed yet again?
The standout line is this
His job helped him to dominate and frighten his victims: prosecutors said that Carrick told women they would not be believed because he was a police officer.
I've read further details of this in other articles where he had said that he would arrange to have drugs planted in their vehicles and get them arrested as drug dealers, and that nobody would believe them over him.
In short: he conducted a campaign of threats and intimidation against his victims, who had already been at the receiving end of his violence so were more than aware of what he was capable of
I love it when discussions focus on what words should be used. It is such an important, and apparently sometimes shocking, subject. That’s me being sarky btw 😉
Its was you that brought up the use of the word and decided to focus on it first.
I didn’t think it was. I thought they either withdrew their complaints or refused to cooperate with the investigations. When that wasn’t the case Carrick was convicted.
To be fair, it's not made explicit that the women were ignored, but:
Carrick passed vetting to join the force in 2001 despite allegations of burglary and malicious communications to a woman with whom a relationship had recently ended. He was involved in nine separate police investigations – but his victims did not wish to go forward with a prosecution, and the Met did not join the dots.
We don't know why the victims did not wish to go forward. Presumably they were either threatened by Carrick, or decided there was no point. If the latter, what was it about the police approach that caused them to believe that? This possibility certainly leaves open the 'not being taken seriously' option.
But whichever it was, these women were badly failed by the police.
Rape / sexual assault investigations and trials are very traumatic for the victims and conviction rates are pathetically low even when its civilians. Its not unreasonable to assume the chances of conviction are even lower when its a policeman. Many victims cannot face the trauma over long periods of time to pursue a case. Often they are told the case is hopeless by prosecutors as well and prosecutions dropped
“See black folk in a posh car late at night – they must have stolen it.”
I got pulled over a few times when I was driving a rather tired old BMW 3 litre coupe. No obvious reason, never had this with any other motor. I am white, but the car was considered "Black Man's Wheels" in those days, and I have always suspected that they assumed it was probably not a white person driving it. Bizarre.
tj just described exactly the sort of well-meaning advice that a police officer might give to a victim of crime. "Are you sure your want to go through with this..." which to the police officer is just warning them what's coming, to the prosecutor is maximising the chances of success if the case goes ahead but unless VERY carefully worded (and I'd suggest followed up on any "i'm not sure" a few days later) is likely to be heard by the victim as something like:
- you'll have to give evidence in court of every sordid detail
- you'll have to face him in court and he'll call you a liar, nobody will believe you
- the court generally believe the police [FWIW I'm not sure that's true if the police are in the dock]
- it will take years, you might be better off putting it behind you and moving on.
That shouldn't happen. It does (not just with police officer cases). BUT the details should have been logged even if the first complainant didn't want to pursue. The second one suddenly sounds a lot more likely when it sounds remarkably familiar. The third one is a pattern of behaviour. That should be happening not just for police officer complaints but it definitely should be happening and getting followed up for them.
I got pulled over a few times when I was driving a rather tired old BMW 3 litre coupe. No obvious reason, never had this with any other motor.
Can we still "profile" based on car? Unless you mean an old E9
that would be near the top of my list for "probably doing something illegal" regardless of who was behind the wheel.
Shame because nice cars.
Rape / sexual assault investigations and trials are very traumatic for the victims
Yup, this seems to be a huge problem in achieving successful prosecutions. In high profile cases which get media coverage the police generally comment on the bravery of the victim in helping to achieve a successful outcome.
I guess this is where specially trained officers are exceptionally important.
Rape / sexual assault investigations and trials are very traumatic for the victims and conviction rates are pathetically low even when its civilians. Its not unreasonable to assume the chances of conviction are even lower when its a policeman. Many victims cannot face the trauma over long periods of time to pursue a case. Often they are told the case is hopeless by prosecutors as well and prosecutions dropped
I posted this in the 'Anything good on Netflix to watch' thread (bear with me!!) but it has taken on relevance beyond there as a result of this discussion.
National Theatre (NT at home) have made some of their performances available on line for subscribers, it's a little more expensive than your average Netflix monthly but I think there are some vouchers or offers available. Or you can PPV (again not cheap for the headline performances, but in this case very worthwhile)
Anyway - my wife and I watched this a week or two ago and it is incredible both as a performance but also for the impact of the message. If you want bubblegum tv it's not for you but really hits hard on the challenge faced by any victim of a rape or sexual assault case, and harder still on how common it is. Don't want to spoil in case anyone wants to watch it but there are reviews online that go into more detail.
https://www.ntathome.com/videos/prima-facie-trailer
https://cherwell.org/2022/05/01/why-am-i-the-one-on-trial-review-prima-facie/
Ultimate she went because of Sadiq Khan
Sure, but was he wrong?
Oh dear, more bad news for the MET
Just wait til we hear it was an open secret and the other met officers used to call him "Captain Fiddle Fingers"
Just wait til we hear it was an open secret and the other met officers used to call him “Captain Fiddle Fingers”
Shouldn't laugh, did.
I wouldn't trust a cop any more than I’d trust any other random bloke I happen to meet.
If I’m in town and I need help, I know where the ambulances park so I’d probably go there.
I should have added. To me, a male cop is just another man but who’s had some training in violence, and carries weapons. I might be more trusting of a female I suppose, but I’d still not call them or go to them in town. I’ve got male friends for that who I know I can rely on
Edit; none of the women in work my age that I just asked trust cops. One said they’d go to a bouncer if she needed help, just texts her bf if she out with mates. None of us would ever call the police
Sure, but was he wrong?
Indeed. And another question which needs to be asked is whether the Home Secretary should have the right to appoint the head of the Met?
Bearing in mind that the Home Secretary wasn't elected by Londoners, her party failed to win both the GLA and mayoral elections, and she doesn't even have a vote herself in London. It's clearly not her business.
Plus as previously mentioned the Met Chief needs to have the confidence of the Mayor of London. Especially as the Tories keep blaming the Mayor of London for rising crime.
that would be near the top of my list for “probably doing something illegal” regardless of who was behind the wheel.
Shame because nice cars.
It looked just like that one, right down to the wheel design! It was a 3.0 CSi with four speed manual transmission, around 20 years old when I got it.
They’re a proper classic now, 6 figures for a good one!
I was picturing something like this as the petty criminals transport of choice
https://images.app.goo.gl/qBRnsnB6Q58MGWsJ 7" alt="3 series" />
They’re a proper classic now, 6 figures for a good one!
Prettiest car ever, bought on impulse. It was not a good one and I couldn't afford to do it up, but it was fun, in a gas-guzzling kind of way. Bosch D-Jetronic electronic analogue fuel injection from a large box of transistors etc. under the rear seat. Eeeeek!
Well done to everyone involved for turning a thread about a serial rapist police officer and, by extension, toxic masculinity into a discussion about cars. FFS! 🙄
Well said Binners.
(I only read the first response )
Respect the position/role.
But trust yourself.
That picture on the Marina Hyde link above was interesting for the semi-authorised “Thin Blue Line” badge on the stab vest. That cliquey attitude needs addressing as not they’re not much different to a member of the community they are charged with policing by consent.
It is a personal decision to ‘other’ themselves and it is not helpful for those of a criminal offending disposition.
Thin blue line Baaaaaaad, rainbow lanyards goooooooood
one is exclusive one is inclusive. Not hard to see the difference.
Well done to everyone involved for turning a thread about a serial rapist police officer and, by extension, toxic masculinity into a discussion about cars.
I assume your congratulations are ironic @binners. You are talking like one of those comedians on a late night show that takes cheap shots at people in the public eye by drawing attention to apparent contradictions which for the most part are easily resolved on closer analysis (but after the initial gag response). If you would care to develop your one-liner into a point, I would be happy to respond.
Alright Toni
Alright Tony
So binners after castigating people for not taking this thread seriously you have now decided to join in the banter and post amusing photos.
I'm sure you understand the logic behind that but it baffles me.