We're probably largely UK based so isn't this one of the most important conversations we can be having right now? I've found it frightening to hear about the potential level of abuse that's occurred within one force. Recent high profile cases have fundamentally changed my views on the police force in general.
You obviously feel we should be, so start the discussion and see if it develops a response. If you don't get one then the answer to your question is "nobody cares enough".
It's terrible isn't it.
My lad has just joined the police force and initially thought of joining the MET but decided not to. I think it was the right decision but of course some of the problems within the force are national.
The Met does seem like a sort of racist, sexist, misogynistic, rapey, murderous, useless and incompetent world of its own
What’s surprising is that anybody is surprised about the latest revelations. We all just shrug and say ‘of course a serial rapists has been working in the Met for the last 20 years with complete impunity. Par for the course’
Would anyone be remotely surprised if something even worse came to light in a months time?
Of course not
I love the talk of ‘bad apples’ when its glaringly obvious that the whole institution is rotten to the core
Sarah Evererds Met officer killer was refereed to by colleagues at ‘the rapist’ and this latest one as ‘Dave the Bastard’ and apparently that’s normal. Bantz! FFS!!!
These weren’t some junior kids either. They were senior firearms officers.
That tells you everything you need to know
And i imagine they manipulate their funding for 'crimes committed' by going after so many motorists, rather than street crimes like mugging or burglary, as that will produce less numbers of cases solved, and therefore maybe make them look incompetent, or not worth the huge amount we give them.
Recent high profile cases have fundamentally changed my views on the police force in general.
It hasn't changed my views of the police forces in general. Over my lifetime I have seen police forces become far more responsive to the needs of the communities which they exist to serve. Stephen Lawrence was one particularly important turning point imo.
I have also seen how corruption which was once so widespread has become such a rarity in recent times.
I suspect that if you look at global public opinion with regards to public confidence in police forces British police would rank very high indeed.
There is never any room for complacency however and it is only by relentless demanding the highest standards that improvements are made, and have been made.
Every failure which is exposed provides the groundwork for improvement imo.
You are Cressida Dick and I claim my place in the House of Lords
Working on your principle then the next serial rapist in the Met will only take 16 years to expose and maybe have only 50 or 60 victims?
Nothing stands in the way of progress, eh?
Probably still better than Nicaragua.
Probably….
The Met has always seemed to be a law unto themselves, going back to the SPG, and perhaps even further. I do know their reputation has always been one of thugs in an official uniform, who answered to no one. Nothing much has changed.
There is a reason why the SPG no longer exists. As you might imagine.
You know what happened to the SPG when they were disbanded?
You reckon they dedicated the rest of their lives to charitable and philanthropic acts?
We ended up with one of the *s as a local copper. They were absolute *ing psychopaths. Thatchers very own *ing stormtroopers. Utter and complete *s, every last one of them!
Nice of you to add defending the Met and the SPG to your repertoire of Boris and Tory cheerleading though comrade
So on a scale of one to serial rapist, how much of an improvement is ‘Dave the Bastard’ on the SPG?
U OK HUN?
When you have calmed down perhaps you can explain why the TSG don't have the same notoriety as the SPG had?
Have you even heard of the TSG? They have been around a lot longer than the SPG ever were.
What’s your point, caller?
It seems to be ‘they’re not all violent, psychotic rapists, so let’s cut them a bit of slack, eh?’
As someone who’s journey to school used to take me past truckloads of tooled up stormtroopers in black Mariah’s, bussed in from the Met to beat the shit out of miners for the audacity of wanting to keep their jobs, I’m probably not as benevolently disposed towards them as you
What’s your point, caller?
You seem to be having a rant at me and yet you don't even know what point I am trying to make?
I would have thought my point was obvious. IMO policing in the UK has improved significantly over the years, read my comment in my previous post.
You obviously disagree, presumably you think policing has become worse, and for reasons which I don't totally understand you appear to be really angry that I don't agree with you.
Edit : Oh you appear to have edited and expanded on that
As someone who’s journey to school used to take me past truckloads of tooled up stormtroopers in black Mariah’s, bussed in from the Met to beat the shit out of miners for the audacity of wanting to keep their jobs, I’m probably not as benevolently disposed towards them as you
So you think UK policing hasn't changed in 40 years? In fact possibly got worse?
The Met said a total of 1,633 cases of alleged sexual offences or domestic violence involving 1,071 officers and other staff were being reviewed from the last 10 years to make sure the appropriate decisions were made.
The MET employs 45,000 people so 2.38% of them are now having allegations of sexual offences and/or domestic violence against them reviewed - and that's progress?
800 current serving officers are under active investigation today into allegations of sexual offences - and that's progress?
In ANY other organisation that level of alleged offending - which excludes all other types of offence - would have led very quickly to thorough investigations, sackings with forfeiture of benefits, prosecutions, dismissal of line managers who chose to do nothing and wholesale re-orgaisation.
Little - if any of that - has happened; that's progress?There may have been some action in the Met to act on institutional racism but that falls massively short of what is required for the public to begin regaining confidence.
Why do women - and men - choose to not report alleged sexual assaults to the Met? Because there is irrefutable evidence they will not be believed and/or any investigation will be cursory.
As for accusing a copper - look at the numbers above.Who knows if other forces are less bad than the Met.
It's a question of lack of goverence, it almost has a hint of silent institutionalisation about it.
I mean, wasn't his nickname 'dave the bastard' or something?
So you think UK policing hasn’t changed in 40 years? In fact possibly got worse
Not a right lot seems to have changed
They were violent psychopaths in uniform back then and correct me if I’m wrong but one of their number was convicted yesterday of being a violent psychopath in uniform
Hardly a one off ‘bad apple’ either, was he?
You carry on excusing the inexcusable if you like though
Not a right lot seems to have changed
Well if you think UK policing hasn't changed in 40 years that is your opinion. I don't agree, I think incidents such as the Stephen Lawrence case, the Brixton Riots, etc, had significant affect on policing.
You carry on excusing the inexcusable if you like though
What exactly do you think I am "excusing"?
Or did you get so carried away with your ranting that you think I am excusing something?
When Stephen Lawrence was murdered, the MET was called institutionally racist
It still is
We now know it’s also a haven for murderers and serial rapists
So I guess you could say it’s changed, yes
There is never any room for complacency however and it is only by relentless demanding the highest standards that improvements are made, and have been made.
Every failure which is exposed provides the groundwork for improvement imo.
I'm not saying that you're a spokesperson for the Met - but this reads exactly like the sort of thing a spokesperson for the Met would say. And that's the problem. I think we're well beyond this kind of bland, meaningless statement designed to "respond" without actually saying anything of value. Let me guess: there'll be an enquiry? And the announcement of an enquiry will then allow the spokespeople to avoid saying anything of value/take any action until the enquiry has run it's course
In light of the recent revelation (coming just after the Sarah Everard murder, and their mind-bendingly stupid/ironic response to the public protests) I think the public are going to want a more meaningful response.
Both the Sarah Everard case and now this point to serious failures of oversight of the conduct of officers. Even if that's not tactually the case, it's certainly the perception, and needs to be robustly addressed.
The new commissioner has only been in role since September - so I wouldn't consider this to be a resigning matter for him (I understand that this case was a factor in Dick's ousting) - but I would expect him to have in place already a super-comprehensive plan to address oversight/screening/complaint handling etc. If he doesn't already, then THAT could certainly be a resigning matter (on the basis that this would make him an idiot), this has been on the horizon since he took office, he should (?) have had a team working on his response since day 1 - I would expect him either to announce his plan, or an ultimatum from the Mayor to be incoming in the next couple of days.
from what I know its more a MET problem than a police problem.
One thing I am convinced of is there should be a "no fault" system of investigations into errors. Obviously that would not cover criminal acts but mistakes and misjudgements. While officers are afraid of being disciplined for mistakes then we can never find out the whole truth as to how the mistakes happen and thus we cannot prevent them happening again. when folk are afraid of repercussions for admitting error there is a strong incentive to cover up. Same in the health service. This is the system commercial pilots have
As regards the Met - the new boss seems to be less protective and more proactive than previous and its clear to me a far better disciplinary and investigative process is needed
We now know it’s also a haven for murderers and serial rapists
Well nothing that has happened has changed my opinion of the police in general.
If this has caused you to significantly change your opinion of the police I can only assume that you previously had an unrealistic view of the police.
The latest revelation is clearly shocking but it comes as no great surprise to me that a serving police officer should be found to be a serial rapist. I am not sure why anyone would assume that no police officer would ever commit a heinous crime.
Obviously there has been a serious element of failure in the latest case. Does that mean that there won't be any improvements and that there haven't been any in the last 40 years? No I don't think so. I suspect lessons will be learnt and further improvements will be made.
One of my family was a senior officer in the met decades ago. Its a vastly changed place from those days from the tales he told me. However its still far from fit for the 21st century
When Stephen Lawrence was murdered, the MET was called institutionally racist
It still is
You are saying that Doreen Lawrence achieved absolutely nothing?
The latest revelation is clearly shocking but it comes as no great surprise to me that a serving police officer should be found to be a serial rapist. I am not sure why anyone would assume that no police officer would ever commit a heinous crime.
But maybe it’s not expecting too much that they don’t get away with multiple rapes, sexual assaults, domestic violence, and false imprisonment over a 20 year period, despite repeated complaints made against them over that entire period?
Get me with my utopian visions and unrealistic expectations, eh? Madness!
You are saying that Doreen Lawrence achieved absolutely nothing
I don’t see what on earth she’s got to do with this. She’s an incredible woman who has changed many things, but certainly not anything within the metropolitan police. It seems that nothing much changes there. It’s still 1975
If the Stephen Laurence murder happened tomorrow the outcome would doubtless be the same
I suspect lessons will be learnt and further improvements will be made
Awwwwww… bless
Good luck with that
I am not sure why anyone would assume that no police officer would ever commit a heinous crime.
I don't think that's what the issue is, or what peoples expectations are. The issue is that there was a long history of criminal activity, which had been failed to be identified or acted upon, leading to terrible crimes (in this case numerous rapes) which could have been prevented had the Met been paying attention to the numerous complaints and allegations made against this officer.
Now you/one can choose whether missing these opportunities to catch this person was due to incompetence, or a more systemic inadequacy in oversight - but either one is fairly damning.
There is a much more important question than that which you should consider:
This person: a serial rapist and abuser of women, has been doing his day-job in the met for 27 years. He has, it seems, been fairly professionally successful in that time. How is hating women to this degree, and having such a twisted / no sense of morality compatible with having a successful career in the Met? How was somebody like that able to exist in an highly scrutinized environment that is (supposed to be) the antithesis of that behavior?
unless it's not an environment that is the antithesis of that behavior....
But yeah, lessons learned, improvements made.
Sometimes outrage is the appropriate response
The bottom line is that not only did he get away with monstrous crimes for decades, all complaints and allegations against him were casually dismissed and he was repeatedly promoted
All his colleagues knew him as ‘Dave the Bastard’ just as Wayne Couzens was called ‘The Rapist’ by his colleagues
What does that say about the culture in the Met?
I don’t know about you, but I’ve never worked alongside anyone who was casually referred to by everyone as ‘The Rapist’
And would you believe it…, he was a murderer too. Oh how everyone must have laughed? Turns out that the nickname was massively selling him short
yeah - things like this come up, and I think about what'd happen if I said something blatantly racist or mysogenist in a meeting at work. My feet wouldn't touch the floor. And I was thinking about the "jungle drums" thread too.
A close friend of the family is a policeman, armed response actually (not Met) and apparently having complaints made about you by the public as you go about your work is just part of the job - he found it pretty demoralizing: that every complaint, however minor, spurious or blatantly vexatious had to be put under a microscope. He even got hauled over the coals by his commander because he got a (standard 3-point) speeding ticket - he accepts that he needs to be held to a higher standard.
So I do wonder how on earth culture in the met can be quite so dysfunctional, and certainly wouldn't want to tar other forces with the same brush.
from what I know its more a MET problem than a police problem.
Is my take on it too. The MET have always been known as the worst part of the police for cover-ups and corruption so I class it as a rotten part of the police service rather than the whole service is rotten. My 83 year old dad has plenty of stories of the MET being exactly the same all the way back to the 60s and the two police officers I know both don't like being associated with them either.
Cressida Dick should never have been given the top job after she approved the execution of Jean Charles de Menenez.
Overall, I’ve only ever had positive, helpful interactions with the cops. They’ve scraped me up and taken me home when I’ve been hit off my bike by idiot motorists and shown interest when my dogs get caught in poachers snares.
But then I’m a white middle aged man living in the countryside. Not where the problem is, presumably.
Here's my splinter arsed view.
Clearly a massive problem institutionally, that allows these things to happen and looks the other way. I listened to Mark Rowley on R4 yesterday (initially he wasn't even going to go on which made me think WTF!) and of course he said the right things, he had to and we all know what 'the right things' to do are but as he was repeatedly challenged - he and his predecessors have said this time and again, why do we believe them any more?
On the other hand - there's a quote up there that says 2-3% have investigations against them. If that's the tip of the iceberg and it's 10%, or 20% - which would be a HUGE institutional problem - there's still 80% that are genuinely good doing a very difficult job that their 'colleagues' have made measurably harder again by this behaviour. And I'm sure given the chance and the support they'd like to change their organisation for the better. The change has to be managed from the top but come from within - no more blind-eyeing because it's just a bit of bantz. No more accepting of there being a thin line between firm policing and thuggery. The (let's call them the 80%) have to stand up against it now and their senior bosses and Sergeants and Inspectors have to take seriously and protect whistle blowers every time they call something out, however minor, because that's the only way change can happen.
The interviewer asked as a woman - if I got into trouble in London, I am now scared of approaching a police officer because of the reputational damage that has been done. I'd feel the same for my daughter or wife. That is just so ridiculous a situation to be in in 2023.
looks like you are. My opinion is no, it is a cycling forum but meh.
"Cressida Dick should never have been given the top job after she approved the execution of Jean Charles de Menenez."
Why pray tell?
there’s still 80% that are genuinely good doing a very difficult job that their ‘colleagues’ have made measurably harder
But as others have pointed out, if the culture at the MET is so twisted that these 80% of officers either feel that they cannot, or shouldn't speak out against officers called Dave the Bastard, because of either the backlash they know they'll receive or that isn't "what you do". Then there's something seriously wrong. I don't doubt for a minute that the MET are still racist, despite Lawrence, I don't doubt that officers are violent, or rapists, despite the sacking of Carrick and Couzens
The Murder of Daniel Morgan is another case that highlights with perfect clarity the MET failing to investigate itself properly time and again and senior officers continue to cover officer's tracks, obfuscate and deny justice. If a case like this can go on in the full glare of the public, then I suspect what we don't know is hundreds of times worse.
OP Did the actions of Dr Harold Shipman change how you view Doctors.
Or Lucy Letby change how you view nurses?
Bad people exist all over the world. Some have jobs in public services.
Don't tar all people with the same brush.
All his colleagues knew him as ‘Dave the Bastard’ just as Wayne Couzens was called ‘The Rapist’ by his colleagues
I know that the West Midlands Serious Crime squad was disbanded but during the mid eighties, a black man was arrested for shoplifting in Next and died in police custody. The arresting officer was affectionately known as The Strangler!
Also at about the same time, I met a lad on a building site who’s brother had been arrested for selling dope and was offered the choice of being charged or selling for the police.
Again, around the same time we had the Hillsborough tragedy where a Policeman’s decision resulted in the deaths of 97 football fans where South Yorkshire Police lied and covered up the truth for many years.
I guess nothing has changed and all Police Forces have some bad apples but hopefully this current case will lead to much more scrutiny?
They have a big problem - they have no system for following the history of repeat offences of their own staff, and nobody followed up on individual incidents. Rather he was promoted.
Nobody is going to have to answer questions on this, and the IOPC don't think there's anything for them to look at - they saw no edidence of wrongdoing in what they were sent.
This isn't a 'bad egg' situation. 1633 cases applied to 1071 officers says that, and how long ago did David Couzens murder Sarah Everard? Any lessons learnt from that, or anything changed?
If you think this is a good process of improvement Ernie, you should probably have a quick reassessment. If you are a woment in London, a police officer is more likely to be dangerous to you than the general population
OP Did the actions of Dr Harold Shipman change how you view Doctors.
Was Shipman known as "the inheritor"?
Has another doctor in his area recently also been convicted?
Have you seen how many are currently under investigation?
Bad apples soon rot the rest of the barrel and there doesnt seem much effort put into weeding them out.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/hero-police-officers-help-save-25089792.amp
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/solihull-lake-hero-police-officer-tried-to-punch-through-ice-to-save-children-141026672.html
https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/23133347.chorley-hero-police-officer-praised-good-deed/
These things happen every day and very rarely make the news. Do any of these headlines change your opinion of the police?
Or the officer who deals with that fatal traffic collision and has to inform the family?
Or the officer who talks the potential suicide down?
Or the officer who deals with domestic abuse?
Ffs....this place sometimes grips my shit
334 doctors have been struck off since 2016.
mattsccm
Free Member“Cressida Dick should never have been given the top job after she approved the execution of Jean Charles de Menenez.”
Why pray tell?
Because she sanctioned then justified the murder of an unarmed, innocent man who was targeted by the police because he was brown. At the very least I expect the top cop to want to be certain of their evidence before they get their executioners to pin people down and shoot them in the back of the head.
. . . and then lie about it.
How many local command and senior officers are complicit in the offenders continuing their behaviour unchallenged and how many of them should now be facing dismissal proceedings..?
How on earth does this go on unchallenged for decades without severe sanctions on those involved in oversight?
I see this as two inter-related issues.
The number of dangerous and abusive police officers is, I believe, comparatively small in overall numbers. The chances of being raped or murdered by one is also small, as it is for any particular occupation.
The media going into a "can we trust the Police" frenzy is a dangerous one, it undermines the force as a whole, makes their already difficult task harder, and distorts everyone's perspective.
However, the officers who turn a blind eye to wrong doing and don't sort out the bad apples are a bigger issue, and unfit to command and/or serve.
All of this with the background narrative of a government stripping officers and resources from the service and then getting on their high horse when the service fails. If the thought of privatising the NGS scares you, how about private "security" everywhere?
OP Did the actions of Dr Harold Shipman change how you view Doctors.
because the GMC and the NHS made huge widespread changes to how GPs dealt with controlled drugs and death certs after what he’d done came to light. Something the MET and other police forces have pretty much failed to do.
that’s not to say other GP, doctors and nurses haven’t been revealed to be criminals since, but at least there is a culture of learning from mistakes
