There are arguments for both cash and cashless. People are giving good points, especially TJ, about cashless being an issue for the poorest in society, but that could be mitigated by mandating access to banking for all in society.
I hate to keep mentioning it, but cash here in Sweden is virtually gone outside the very few old people that want to use it and the people doing the very obvious money laundering on the kebab shop slot machines.
Here, if the card machines don't work, you can pay by Swish (micropayment service) to the shop's number. That system is linked to your secure tax ID (which identifies _you_ as an individual) and bank account, so when a payment is securely authorised (as long as no one else has your mobile and passcode) and goes into/from your bank account directly. Even the beggers here have Swish and a QR kod... Yes, the power grid or payment system can go down with a big power cut, but investing in grid resilience should minimise this risk _AND_ benefit society as a whole. Same with cybersecurity for the payment system.
Most big shops will take cash at one checkout, but it's a pain for them to have to deal with cash, it increases the risk to them of theft, so they prefer not to take it. Banks don't as a rule, carry cash either. You visit a bank to arrange money things and then authorise it with, again, your secure eID.
I genuinely cannot remember the last time I used cash. Or had cash on me that was not Euros for a holiday.
Just over the border in Germany, people give me funny looks when I try and pay by card. Many places will not accept it.
6 years ago, that was spot on. Not any more. The pandemic (and plague infested bank notes) was just what was needed to trigger the use of cashless in Germany. Weirdly, one of the first places in EU to accept cashless were the turnstiles for the bogs in Autobahn services, even before Apple/Android supported contactless and before anyone had a contactless card.
Still proper sluggish for rollout of self-checkout in Germany though compared to UK (and almost all are cashless, if you find them).
The street beggars will love the return of cash. but at least we do have bottle deposits in Germany, so they can make a living collecting and returning empties.
what are the downsides?
It doesn't work well for poorer people.
This! There are plenty of older people who don’t have the luxury of fancy computers, smartphones or whatever, and can’t do online banking, not that most of the banks give a shit, or building societies for that matter, the only bank in Chippenham that has a counter service is Lloyds, but you can’t speak to an account manager any more if you need more complicated help. I hardly ever use cash, but I see people using cash all the time.
There’s only one building society with full services, and that’s Nationwide, to Dominic West’s perpetual annoyance! 🤣
Just because the OP sees no need, there are lots who don’t fit into his tidy little world.
My tattooist generally only takes cash, although I think she might do PayPal as well.
I own a food business.
We accept both and always have*, but have a carefully worded sign that says we prefer card.
Anyway...
We prefer card because of all the many reasons listed in this thread. And most customers also prefer it.
We still accept both, for all the other reasons listed in this thread.
The amount of cash we actually take is vanishingly small, about 1% of our revenue. It's sufficiently low now that we keep a minimum amount of change in the building and only need to cash up weekly.
The remaining people who use cash are...
A handful of homeless people each week, who we happily serve and invariably get a freebie anyway
A few young kids spending their pocket money
Elderly people and tourists who for whatever reason can't use their card
Stubborn so and so's who are perfectly able to pay by card but like to make a point that "cash is king" usually while being very unpleasant to my staff. These people outnumber all the others sadly.
.
*During COVID we didn't take cash. And one day last year after we were broken into and all the cash in the building was taken, so briefly had to say no. The total cost to us (money taken, repairs and extra security costs, plus subsequent hike in premium) added up to about 50x the amount of cash we take each week. Yay cash!
To answer the point about power cuts or network issues. It's definitely a risk, and we have several backup systems in place, that mean we can keep taking payments in most circumstances. If there was a big power cut then we'd probably be having lots of other issues as well, such as having no food to sell! Thankfully these things happen very rarely... (touch wood)
And the other point which we frequently hear is that card payments cost more. I can't speak for every business, but in our case that's not true. Paying in cash costs more than card fees, and has for a few years. Plus all the admin, security and other things.
Cashless will further disadvantage the already disadvataged and has huge issues in power cuts, and if there is internet issues. Also not everywhere has internet available.
Businesses in those circumstances these days just stop trading altogether. Went to a restaurant the other week to meet some friends and the payment system had gone down, they had no system for customers to pay in cash, didn't have a till, or change. People were sat at tables effectively just waiting for the system to start working again.
Stubborn so and so's who are perfectly able to pay by card but like to make a point that "cash is king" usually while being very unpleasant to my staff. These people outnumber all the others sadly.
Got in a cab a year or so ago in Manchester, arrived at destination ‘can I pay by card?’ Cue much gesticulation and moaning about cards, banks and how society can’t survive without cash, and how it really would be better for everyone if I paid cash. ‘I haven’t got any cash, up to you.’ ‘Fine’ *pulls out card machine.
The number of people who can't use cards is vanishingly small and reducing by the day. A basic debit card attached to a basic bank account is not difficult to manage and frankly a basic skill in todays western society. Theres always a few people on the fringes of society who cant cope but that's true of most aspects of life.
Germany is shockingly behind the UK, but that's a cultural thing (and from my experience applies to smoking, drink driving, levels of sickness at work, expectations around salary and benefits at work) but they are catching up slowly as are Austria. Denmark is way ahead digitally.
Cash has already gone in most respects and the majority of people still using it are refuseniks and people avoiding tax.
As for power cuts, our whole society is based on 24/7 electricity. Even places that still have tills need elctricity to open them. Maybe rather than hanging onto outdated payment systems we should be worrying about having a resilient and sustainable power system in the UK.
Probably said this already in this thread but it is interesting that some countries that weren't early adopters of cards have completely bypassed them and gone straight to mobile payments. India payments are completely dominated by QR codes and phones.
Portugal away from the tourist centres and big cities also want cash or they have a direct transfer system instead.
Not a lot of love for big US card processors in many countries.
Theres always a few people on the fringes of society who cant cope but that's true of most aspects of life.
so they can be disregarded / have life made even more difficult ?
How will people snort coke off hookers if there aren't any £50 notes?
Good to see that somebody is focussing on the important issues 😀
Do the hookers take cards these days?
There are plenty of older people who don’t have the luxury of fancy computers, smartphones or whatever, and can’t do online banking,
But what do they need any of that for day-to-day? Genuine question.
You can check your balance at an ATM - the same place you, y'know, get cash from. You don't need a fancy computer (or even a crap one) to use a debit card.
It's also harder to give someone who randomly knocked on your door five grand to clean your gutter if you've got a card rather than used 50s under the mattress.
Finding an ATM local to you would likely not to be an option if we ever did become a cash free as a society.
Personally, I don't use cash, and have no problems with businesses that choose to avoid handling cash. But we're not a truly cash free society, and won't be for a while, if ever. Large cash transactions are going to be increasingly seen (and flagged) as dubious though.
Was in New Zealand earlier in the year and that is almost entirely cashless, almost no-one wants cash and I saw zero places that were cash only. I arrived in the country with $NZ200 in cash and left with the same amount.
I get the challenge for old folk, but as above, you don't need a computer or phone, you just need to use a debit card, the same one you currently take money out of a cashpoint with.
And for businesses it's cheaper to process electronic transactions than it is to deal with cash. If they want cash it's because at least some of it won't go through the books.
I was in Greece last year and everywhere took card payment without even asking if I was paying cash. The odd bar did give you shots if paying by cash though, but as they got to know us and he cash ran out towards the end of the holiday they gave us them anyway.
One grocery shop I went to tutted because I wanted to use cash, I need some change, he really wasn’t pleased at all that he had to open his till.
so they can be disregarded / have life made even more difficult ?
Happens all the time for all sorts of aspects of society, it's just a reality when the number of people affected becomes a very small percentage of the population.
Society changes, generally in a forwards direction for most people, some get left behind.
I worked at a bank (doing IT for them) and there were a stubborn bunch of customers that had super-old mobiles that, because of their lack of support for modern TLS, prevented us from getting rid of the crap and moving exclusively to a modern version (which would have benefitted the vast, vast majority of other customers).
I suggested that the bank use some of its funds to buy new smartphones for the few holdouts. it would have been cheaper and easier for us and them.
huge issues in power cuts, and if there is internet issues
the sandwich van that comes round at work seems to manage with just a mobile phone. so yes, it uses electricity, before someone points that out; but does not require connection to the grid for either electricity or internet conneciton.
it would be sensible for any shop or business in areas prone to power cuts to have at least one mobile phone based point of sale terminal.
How will people snort coke off hookers if there aren't any £50 notes?
How else do they cut the lines? 😉
From recent experiences at work it has be come clear that before a switch to a full cashless society there will need to be a lot of education provided to students about how to manage their money when paying by cards only. I'm seeing terrible examples of hardship fund claims at the moment where students are just constantly buying on their cards with no concept of the idea that there is not an infinite source of funds for their spending. It's like no-one has ever explained how finances work.
Surely you are old enough TJ to remember the original Visa machines with the carbon paper and the slidey roller thing that ran over the top
The problem with using the carbon roller thing these days is that a lot of newer credit & debit cards no longer have the embossed numbers on them. both of mine are printed so wouldn't work on the old payment method.
but does not require connection to the grid for either electricity or internet conneciton.
Are you sure it doesn't require a mobile internet connection? All the one I have seen do to check the card. I used a shop on Mull that said they counldn't use a card reader as they had no internet connection at all at the shop of any kind
but does not require connection to the grid for either electricity or internet conneciton.
Are you sure it doesn't require a mobile internet connection? All the one I have seen do to check the card. I used a shop on Mull that said they counldn't use a card reader as they had no internet connection at all at the shop of any kind
Are you sure it doesn't require a mobile internet connection
There are definitely some mobile phone based payment apps that would function in a power cut. I have a vague memory of the tech also being able to function without mobile signal for a short period of time but I could be making that up.
They generally require an Internet connection but that can be a mobile phone. Card readers can still be configured to operate without an Internet connection.
Card readers can still be configured to operate without an Internet connection.
Isn't the issue here though that if you are a company charging someone and expecting card payment (e.g. at a large event), you are running a huge risk that you take payments that are refused later because at the time of purchase there's no way of verifying the card. I rarely use cash, but the times I have recently have been at races or Descend Bike park (both at Hamsterley) where there is both no mobile signal and a large number of people seeking to pay for something.
Isn't the issue here though that if you are a company charging someone and expecting card payment (e.g. at a large event), you are running a huge risk that you take payments that are refused later because at the time of purchase there's no way of verifying the card.
Yes, the liability is shifted to the merchant not the card issuer.
To be fair cash isnt risk free either, theres plenty of fakes out there and it can be stolen.
To be fair cash isnt risk free either, theres plenty of fakes out there and it can be stolen.
No country should ever go cashless. Why on earth would you want to?
Imagine if every single transaction, no matter how small, had to pay a fee to a bank! And if cash were ever outlawed, do you think for 5 minutes that the banks would refrain from charging the customer AND the business?
in the UK I use my phone 99% of the time but here at home only half the time. Two of our local shops (supermarkets) have a minimum amount you can use a card for, and the baker across the road doesn’t own a machine.
You say that but,
History would suggest that the reverse is true. When they were new, banks charged for ATM cash withdrawals. As another random example, text messages used to be ~10p and who remembers buying "minutes"?
As cash goes the way of the dodo, competition will eradicate transaction fees. Meanwhile, what's the actual cost of moving money around? Someone has to cash up at the end of the night, make the float for morning, take the money to the bank where it all needs to be counted again, bagged... rather than click, done.
Why on earth would you want to?
Who on earth would you not?
I wonder if it was the same when cash came in? "But I get three goats to the cow and that's just the way I like it!"
Why on earth would you want to?
baker across the road doesn’t own a machine.
Hmm, handling food and cash. Great reason right there.
As cash goes the way of the dodo, competition will eradicate transaction fees.
is this an oligopoly already?
Imagine if every single transaction, no matter how small, had to pay a fee to a bank!
They already effectively do, even the cash ones, as Cougar points out cash costs to handle. Those costs get proportionally bigger as the amounts reduce.
Regulating the market is what governments are there for, it used to legal for retailers to charge ore for card payments, if that can be banned transaction fees can be capped. We live in an odd country from a banking perspective, we expect free bank accounts and transactions, in Europe people have traditionally paid for their bank account. Thats changing now accounts have moved online only, progress making things cheaper compared to the old ways, who'd have thunk it.
i am bemused that you canwish to disenfranchise and exclude vulnerable people
Slight OT... For people who are concerned about the transaction fees when they use their card in a shop, do you feel the same about shopping online? The fees are higher if anything. It's partly because there is a greater fraud risk/protection I think but higher nonetheless. PayPal is higher still.
The US is at last embracing contactless. Always been a pain with cards there, 'cos they seem to have their own authentication standards. Need to enter a ZIP code on a website or at a petrol pump, for example.
i am bemused that you canwish to disenfranchise and exclude vulnerable people
Agreed if we're talking about getting rid of cash completely, but Dad was much happier using a contactless card than managing cash when he was still shopping. Also easier to keep an eye for people with POA, too.
i am bemused that you canwish to disenfranchise and exclude vulnerable people
You keep saying this.
Who exactly can use cash but can't hold a piece of plastic next to a contactless scanner, other than the wilfully obtuse?
Who exactly can use cash but can't hold a piece of plastic next to a contactless scanner, other than the wilfully obtuse?
People outside of the system, such as the homeless.
There are also sections of society who find dealing with cash easier. Either limited budgets or limited finance skills.
If you only have £50 to last the week, its easier to keep a track of what funds you have from the physical items in your pocket.
“Regulating the market is what governments are there for, it used to legal for retailers to charge ore for card payments, if that can be banned transaction fees can be capped”
You’d think so wouldn’t you….. but then you’d remember the “British” energy companies and realise how wrong you were 😂
i am bemused that you canwish to disenfranchise and exclude vulnerable people
You keep saying this.
Who exactly can use cash but can't hold a piece of plastic next to a contactless scanner, other than the wilfully obtuse?
Chew has it plus others such as folk in financially abusive relationships, vulnerable adults who need someone to do shopping for them ( they cannot hand a card to someone else and the shopping needs to be done with the clients money) those with limited mental capacity, plus as above businesses without access to internet.
You keep saying this.
Who exactly can use cash but can't hold a piece of plastic next to a contactless scanner, other than the wilfully obtuse?
Sounds very close-minded. You need to open your mind a bit man! 👌😉
You keep saying this.
Who exactly can use cash but can't hold a piece of plastic next to a contactless scanner, other than the wilfully obtuse?
Sounds very close-minded. You need to open your mind a bit man! 👌😉
People outside of the system, such as the homeless.
I've seem homeless people with card readers. There's some scheme or other I think?
Most of the other examples could be fixed with a card with a daily/weekly spending limit.
Here's a mad idea, let's try and deal with homelessness and maybe come up with some sort of proxy card for the elderly and vulnerable (be a lot better than handing cash over to a random carer). We're going to need to because cash is nearly dead. We're at a tipping point and once it goes businesses are going to rapidly stop taking cash as the cost will outweigh the tiny amount of lost business.
Technology moves on, theres always someone who gets left behind, it's just a reality, shouting will somebody think of the vulnerable (and stubborn) won't change anything.
