[Closed] Should I forgive the SNP?

OK, I'll bite.

What does the SNP need forgiveness for then?

Or in other words you're finally starting to see sense.

She revolting, nothing but a badly painted corpse. Wonder if she smells as bad as she looks.

What does the SNP need forgiveness for then?

You mean [i]apart[/i] from attempting to break the union?

My political views have not changed wanmankylung. I have always expressed the view that Scottish independence does not help many of the UK's poorest. It seems that the SNP may have shifted. The mountain has come to Muhammad!

In what way have the SNP shifted?

Maybe they could start a British wide party with the same political ideas. They could call it... The British National Party..
oh wait..

LOL at Molgrips!

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enfht - Member

She revolting, nothing but a badly painted corpse. Wonder if she smells as bad as she looks.

What does the SNP need forgiveness for then?

You mean apart from attempting to break the union?

OK so in someone's opinion this is inherently bad - can you explain?
I still don't see why, and 45+% of my compatriots seem to agree.

Oh and well done bringing it down to being about a woman's looks. Actually ,no need to a answer my questions, you're not worth listening to.

It comes down to the leader of the SCOTTISH NATIONAL Party, deciding she knows what's best for the rest of the UK, and she'll force the rest of the UK to go along, come hell or high water.
Am I alone in thinking there's a slight lack of democratic process going on here?

Am I alone in thinking there's a slight lack of democratic process going on here?

She can only do it if enough people vote for the SNP. Sounds very democratic.

The democratic process allowed the lib dems to bolster the tories into power, against the wishes of many, not least some lib dems! If a Lab / SNP coalition were to spring up, it would be no less democratic. Of course had senior tories, lib dems and labour politicians not travelled north the week before the referendum to charm undecideds into voting no, they wouldn't now be in this position of the SNP having such potential leverage in a Westminster election. Reap what you sow and all that.

She revolting, nothing but a badly painted corpse. Wonder if she smells as bad as she looks.

What does the SNP need forgiveness for then?
You mean apart from attempting to break the union?

You're symptomatic of what is wrong with society's views on politics now, what does someone look like?. It's not bloody X factor. And the SNP weren't attempting to break up the union, only looking to have scotland recognised as a country on its own. I'm sure if that had happened, the rest of the Union may have brought that about themselves.

Is it democratic if, as looks likely, the SNP get to impose their policies (regardless of what they actually are) on an electors that had no opportunity to to actually vote for them?
Scots would be upset if the DUP (for example) held the balance of power in the Scots Parliament when no Scot could vote for the DUP.
Just a thought.

My little dwarfy friend, you don't do irony, do you?.

[quote=muddydwarf ]Is it democratic if, as looks likely, the SNP get to impose their policies (regardless of what they actually are) on an electors that had no opportunity to to actually vote for them?
Scots would be upset if the DUP (for example) held the balance of power in the Scots Parliament when no Scot could vote for the DUP.
Just a thought.
Aye, but this is the [b]UK[/b] Parliament and all MPs are (currently) regarded as equal. A minority government propped up by the likes of the DUP is perfectly possible too.

I wouldn't mind in the slightest if I had the opportunity or not to vote for the SNP, if they want to play in the national sandpit surely they should try to stand in as wide a base as possible?
Scots don't vote Tory but at least they have an opportunity to consider then reject a Tory candidate.

Same goes for the DUP.

[quote=muddydwarf ]I wouldn't mind in the slightest if I had the opportunity or not to vote for the SNP, if they want to play in the national sandpit surely they should try to stand in as wide a base as possible?You are suggesting that Scotland sending MPs to Westminster is OK as long as they are from one of the Unionist parties. That's democracy?

How many Labour, Tory or LibDem candidates are there in NI?

No, I'm suggesting that as a Westminster party they attempt to appeal to a wider base than Scottish Nationalists. That by attempting to show their policies to the wider UK electorate they would gain a wider acceptance as a party fit to govern the UK rather than the current perception of a separatist party wanting only to cause trouble for the rest of the Union. That may not be how they are seen in Scotland but in the wider UK its an idea that has gained traction.

Presumable Muddytroll is against independents and other smaller parties that couldn't stand for everyseat?

Druid, avoid entering a battle of wits with one who is unarmed.....

She revolting, nothing but a badly painted corpse. Wonder if she smells as bad as she looks.

Can I see a picture of you as obviously I cannot react to your views till I know what you look like .

I cannot think why the dont want to stay friends with you and remain in a union with you.

in the wider UK its an idea that has gained traction.

No, I'm suggesting that as a Westminster party they attempt to appeal to a wider base than Scottish Nationalists.

Please define "Wesminster party".

Yes, very good Mr Vegas - well done for spotting the subtle aim 🙄
The difference is that the SNP are an avowed separatist party with the aim of complete independence from the UK and with a recent history of seeming extremely anti-UK from many viewpoints. Surely that is allowed to raise some concerns about the level of democratic interaction with the wider UK electorate? If enough independents all with the same policies stand across the UK then you have a de facto party and therefore not a problem. Its the idea that - regardless of policy - the wider UK isn't getting a chance to study then vote for the policies that may well be imposed on them. The same goes for Plaid Cymru or the DUP, if they are to have a hand in governing us it would be well to have a chance to vote. It may well be that SNP policies appeal to many disaffected English/Welsh voters, but we will not get the chance to choose or reject them.

Westminster Party - a political grouping in the UK parliament at Westminster. Good enough?

Not really - what would you define as a "political grouping"?

I will leave it to you to tell the Unionists in Northern Ireland there they are neithe rBritish nor westminster.

seeming extremely anti-UK

It may well be that SNP policies appeal to many disaffected English/Welsh voters, but we will not get the chance to choose or reject them.

A political grouping/party - group of MPs at Westminster all of whom follow the same declared policy/political ideology. Semantics, really?

I reckon that a change of name and standing in english and welsh constituencies would see the party elected in maybe three or four parliaments time.

So you think that the SNP is just a group of MPs in Westminster who have the same declared policy or ideology? That's your definition and it's stupid.

Junky, many people may indeed vote for the SNP in England, we don't know. After all it was you independence supporters who kept telling the rest of us how progessive and social leaning the party are - further left than Labour remember?
So why wouldn't they vote for a party offering that? Just because I dont trust the SNP's intentions towards thr rest of us doesn't mean others would feel the same.

So go on then, what DOES define a political party???

A political party is an organization of people which seeks to achieve goals common to its members through the acquisition and exercise of political power.

That's what wikipedia says.

And how does that differ? Really?

How does it differ from the SNP being a group of MPs in Westminster?

You really need me to explain that?

Yes please. In practice the SNP would be a political party at Westminster wielding some level of political power in the UK Govt, ergo a Westminster Party. In just the same way the Conservative and Liberal Democrats can be both Westminster parties and parties of local govt in the UK so can the SNP be the party of Scottish Govt and a partner in a UK Govt at Westminster. What is difficult about that concept?

If the SNP are the biggest party in Scotland (which looks very likely) then what's the problem of a agreement between them and the biggest party in the rest of the UK (who look like they're only going to get maybe 35% or so of the total votes cast anyway) to govern the UK as a whole? Surely that's as close to a democratic outcome as we're going to get in this election?

What is difficult about that concept?

Precisely nothing, so why do you have such a big problem with it?

Sad to say, that when many media commentators (and some here too) use the word 'undemocratic' to describe what might be about to happen, they really mean 'unfair'.

Since when has a representative democracy been fair? This is the reality- its always been this way. Nothing new to see here.

Personal opinion: PR nationally is what we need- it works well in Scotland, is pretty balanced, is far more reflective of realpolitik, avoids (to an extent) the horror of tactical voting.

Anyway, back on track of the OP's point. Should he forgive the SNP?. As Al said, forgive for what?. I fail to see why anyone would vote for any of the other parties in Scotland.

Labour are going to get their worst result for many a long year North of the border, off the back of their behaviour at indyref, but also voting that blairite **** as their leader.

Precisely nothing, so why do you have such a big problem with it?

So you accept that the SNP would be a Westminster Party? Thank you.

I have a problem with not having the opportunity to vote for policies that may affect me whether adversely or not, as someone who rejects 'Westminster Politics'as being unrepresentative of Scottish interests then you can surely see how having policy imposed without even the chance to vote for or against that policy is inherently suspect?

You say a change of name and the SNP would get elected in England, I believe certain of their policies may well sit comfortably with sectors of the English electorate - but we aren't getting the chance are we?
Let them stand in England/Wales/N.l. and put those policies forward.

 

then you can surely see how having policy imposed without even the chance to vote for or against that policy is inherently suspect

Pssst - I'll let you in on a wee secret. Each and every government in the history of the world has imposed policies that the people didn't have a chance to vote for or against.

Yep, but we had the chance to vote for that party as a country.

So people had the choice to go to war in Iraq did they?