Forum menu
Annecdotally one of the historic groups of non-doms where Greek shipping magnates, they came to the UK to live and kept their shipping business and income offshore. they paid UK tax on their UK income and money brought into the country. I suspect they may not have brought that much into the country or frankly declared much of it but that's another issue.
and look how thats helped the greek economy helped screw the eurozone and ultimately drag everyone into the crap
Kimbers you are hurting not only the poor of the UK but of Greece with that crazy leftie talk....I wished you cared about them 😥
JY I may have posted this before .. whilst non-dom status may not exist other countries have attractive tax regimes, tax breaks etc
Switzerland - taxes vary widely by Canton and can be legitimately negotiated but if you live in Zug income tax is zero, they have a wealth tax of some 0.25% but you can offset expenses against it. You can elect in many cantons to pay tax based upon the size of your property, so if you live in an apartment for example you may pay very little
USA - wide varience in tax rates by state, some states have zero state tax like Connecticut, lots of deductions so the wealthy typically pay around 15%
Portugal - I read yesterday tax on pensions is zero, designed to encourage people to relocate and retire there
Dubai - income tax is zero
Hong Kong - top rate of tax is 15%
Singapore - top rate of tax is 20% (from equiv £175k) paid on earnings, zero tax on investment income and capital gains
Annecdotally one of the historic groups of non-doms where Greek shipping magnates, they came to the UK to live and kept their shipping business and income offshore. they paid UK tax on their UK income and money brought into the country. I suspect they may not have brought that much into the country or frankly declared much of it but that's another issue.
On the contrary. This IS the issue. Its all part of the bigger picture of what London has become. They (Greek Shipping Magnates) are the very personification of group of pretty dubious people who feel that taxation is for the 'little people'. I suppose you also think the Russian Oligarch being encouraged to make London their home, are also pictures of ethical probity?
The fact of the matter is that the City of London, as ethical as we all know it is, [url= http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/08/opinion/londons-laundry-business.html?_r=0 ]is awash with dirty money from all over the world[/url]. And the people who've come here to have it laundered are only paying a token tax contribution.
Its about time that we as a society stopped not just tolerating them, but indulging them. They'll still come and have their money laundered. Where else are they going to go and find such a willing ethical vacuum?
Greece's problems are a bit more deep rooted than shipping magnates taking non-dom status and the abolition will not help them one jot.
Greek shipping magnates have helped the UK by paying taxes here and spending money.
Once again, as long as it helps the bottom line, balances the books, then anything goes. No matter how morally dubious.
Brilliant!!!
The scary thing is, those in government think exactly the same.
They have helped themselves - "helping" us was incidental. They have also shafted their own people in the process. Few of us will feel like helping them or being so charitable in our description of them.
@binners I think those are legitimate concerns but unless someone has been convicted of a crime how do you decide if someone is "dodgy" ?
@binners I think those are legitimate concerns but unless someone has been convicted of a crime how do you decide if someone is "dodgy" ?
Good question. But it a lot of cases, its hardly difficult. The people who we're talking about here, like Putins cronies, generally have reputations which precede them.
And I'd suggest that a still unreformed culture of 'no questions asked' espoused by [url= http://www.huffingtonpost.com/avinash-tharoor/banks-cartel-money-laundering_b_4619464.html ]the likes of HSBC[/url], and pretty representative of The City in general, is the polar opposite of the aproach needed to actually address the issue.
If there were any will or desire whatsoever to address it. Which they're clearly isn't.
The scary thing is, those in government think exactly the same.
Except they don't. Read the link I posted before, Considerable time is spent addressing tax policy including cross-party committees. They also spend more considered time debating what is and isn't fair and recognise that this is not as simple as some make out. There is not moral superiority/absolute in the notion of equality of outcome. Having said that, there is cross party support for an element of redistribution within tax policy but that is not the be all and end all.
FWIW. HSBC employs a very large number of people to counter your accusation. Your point may suggest that they are not doing their job very well, which as a shareholder, is a point that I would accept,
@Adam you haven't noticed bankers leaving, do you actually follow this ? How would you notice ? As someone who's been in Finance for nearly 30 years I can tell you many bankers have left the country post the financial crises mostly as the number of jobs has declined markedly, some have left for tax reasons after the top rate when to 50%. If you look at the number of non-doms it peaked around 2006/7, I strongly suspect the number has fallen as banking jobs have been lost.
To be honest, I haven't noticed. That's the whole point. I haven't noticed.
Let them leave. It is wrong that a government keeps hitting the poorest to pay for the richest.
[quote=AdamW said]
To be honest, I haven't noticed. That's the whole point. I haven't noticed.
Let them leave. It is wrong that a government keeps hitting the poorest to pay for the richest.
If "the richest" all clear off, how does that help the poorest BTW ?
It is wrong that a government keeps hitting the poorest to pay for the richest.
Indeed, so good job that the stats do not support that idea. Check out income inequality under this lot!
Let them leave.
You haven't noticed a shortage of bankers ?
If we carry on losing bankers at this rate soon we won't have any banks.
Let them leave. It is wrong that a government keeps hitting the poorest to pay for the richest.
@Adam - bit repetitive of me but some of my favourite stats
Top 1% pay 30% (close to) of the taxes
I did a calc recently posted on here which shows that someone on £250k pays 47 times more tax than someone on £17k
Non-doms pay £8.2bn which Telegraph estimated was equal to the total tax paid by the bottom 50%
Massive increases in stamp duty, Kensington and Chelsea pay something like 7% of the stamp duty collected in the whole country - that was before the last big hike by the Tories
London generates £34bn more in taxes than it receives in govt spending
My guess is banking jobs are down by 200,000 since 2008, clearly most in relatively low level positions but many many senior jobs gone in London. I personally think this is a factor in the reduction of average earnings as these are all above average paying jobs
If "the richest" all clear off, how does that help the poorest BTW ?
Curious that the supply of labour within the heady heights of banking appears to be one small pool of personnel, so small that we CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE ANY OF THEM. Apparently you have to pay a lot of money for talent...and its a special kind of talent that bankrupts your economy.
If they don't like it, they can leave. There will be plenty to replace them.
Hmm, that sounds familiar...thats right, its the tactic their kind have used on everyone else since year dot.
but many many senior jobs gone in London. I personally think this is a factor in the reduction of average earnings as these are all above average paying jobs
The master of understatement strikes again! 😆
Seems to be quite a ping pong on non doms, anyway, entirely unrelated, I was wondering what the crowds opinion was on the 'tax differences' between PAYE, self employed and director status was.
If they don't like it, they can leave. There will be plenty to replace them.
You make the mistake of thinking that thrm 'leaving' means leaving their jobs - this is the 21st century age of technology, truth is they will still be doing the same job, still getting the same money, just resident elsewhere so we don't see a penny of it (and more likely than not taking a bunch of their employees who do pay lots of scrumptious tax with them)
It sounds to me that the filthy rich haven't got enough money. We obviously need to shower them with even more money and perhaps exempt them from all taxes.
Like that we will all be better off as they get even richer, at our expense. It makes perfect sense.
Anyone who can't see the sense of making filthy rich people even richer is clearly guilty of 'politics of envy'.
There is a law of diminishing returns and also of unintended consequences in regard to taxing the uber rich.ernie_lynch - Member
Anyone who can't see the sense of making filthy rich people even richer is clearly guilty of 'politics of envy'
Whilst the subject warrants attention, it needs to be remembered that the system is trying to outwit the portion of society which is comprised of individuals who [i]may[/i] be any or all of the following; the most powerful, well connected, intelligent, hardworking, quick-thinking and well educated.
FWIW I do know of high-earners who have already left the UK altogether, [i]purely[/i] as a result of taxation. The UK now gets 0% of the benefit of either their earnings or cost of living expenditure - it might benefit from a few exports to them indirectly.
I have received my postal vote confirmation yesterday so I shall be voting before you lot ... 😆
Seems to be quite a ping pong on non doms, anyway, entirely unrelated, I was wondering what the crowds opinion was on the 'tax differences' between PAYE, self employed and director status was.
@towzer, personally as someone who's been PAYE I feel like a sitting duck for the tax man/government whilst business owners have a huge amount of flexibility, tax allowances, lower tax rates etc. Even pensions are seen as fair game these days. I think if I had my time again I would focus on starting a business and not doing a more normal job. I did give that a try in 2012/3 but it didn't work out, from a tax perspective it would have been much more favourable.
I have received my postal vote confirmation yesterday so I shall be voting before you lot ...
Will see if mine has arrived at the weekend. BTW are you based outside the UK ? i was trying to fund dates voting slips are sent out yesterday but could only find registration dates.
I wonder how this will play out in the polls, is Labours' portrayal of the tories as the party of the elite tax avoiders working? (regardless of how effective it might be or indeed if it would ever get passed into law)
its been countered by a bitchy, 'Millibands a backstabber and will get us all nuked' we saw today
im not sure if that was a panicked response after labours best polls of the year coming out yesterday and the tory vulnerability at the elitism claim
There is a law of diminishing returns and also of unintended consequences in regard to taxing the uber rich
And don't forget the law which states that the "uber rich" never have quite enough money and always need more.
@kimbers indeed it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Polls I saw had things still neck and neck between Tories and Labour, not much change really.
yeah very little in it,
also, interesting to see what happens with ukip, theyve crashed out in the polls, only a couple of months ago they were a dire threat to labour and the tories, im not sure if they just peaked too soon or if the constant drip of negative stories has beat them down
FWIW I do know of high-earners who have already left the UK altogether, purely as a result of taxation. The UK now gets 0% of the benefit of either their earnings or cost of living expenditure - it might benefit from a few exports to them indirectly.
Society is probably better off without such greedy borderline sociopaths.
I find it astonishing this argument of 'let's not try and tax the super rich as they'll only wriggle out of it'. How about 'let's not bother trying to catch serious criminals because they're really good at evading capture' or 'let's not bother going after the worst benefit cheats as they're really good at fraud'. Yet somehow people have been brainwashed into thinking that it's perfectly acceptable. 😕
We do tax the super rich though. It is a reality though that the richer you are the more able you are to avoid tax via the organisation of your affairs. Warren Buffett is hugely wealthy on paper via his ownership of Berkshire Hathaway but he is able to shelter most of that from tax via the company. Sadly we are unable to address corporate tax avoidance as countries like Ireland and Luxembourg actively encourage it for their own benefit. Super rich individuals are able to do the same.
digga - MemberFWIW I do know of high-earners who have already left the UK altogether, purely as a result of taxation. The UK now gets 0% of the benefit of either their earnings or cost of living expenditure - it might benefit from a few exports to them indirectly.
How do they do their high earning? Likewise I know of several who chose to leave the country, and you know what? We lost their tax, but someone else took over and they do pay tax. Essentially, we lost some ****s and in their place, some better human beings are now doing well.
jambalaya - Member
I have received my postal vote confirmation yesterday so I shall be voting before you lot ...
Will see if mine has arrived at the weekend. BTW are you based outside the UK ? i was trying to fund dates voting slips are sent out yesterday but could only find registration dates.
I am based in the North East in a very sunny county with nice people who love to drink and to party. Wahey! 😀
So the Torygraph finally runs the Flanders story - tomorrow the "earth is round" revelation
Amazing that he used to talk economics and yet now he seems to have forgotten most of it. The Flanders trio F x E^2 is slightly mind boggling though
Still despite everything Ed opening up a slight advantage in the polls this morning. Maybe focusing on non-issues that make good headlines is the trick after all. He could try currency is an asset and perhaps that might start a recovery north of the wall.
The only good news from the election stories so far, is the fracture of the UKIP bubble. How did it take that long? Was it Farrage's promise to resign if he lost his seat?
@Northwind - you seem to have this view that anyone successful with money is a ****
The guy I know who retired to Singapore has about £1m a year in investment earnings after selling his businesses for £15m. If he stayed in the UK that would be £250-£400k of taxes, in Singapore he pays close to zero as investment income is tax free. We lose tax and we lose his spending and his considerable expertise, he still runs a few businesses in that region, if he lived in the UK he's probably do the same here creating employment and passing on his knowledge. Its not as simple as to say if someone leaves another person just "does their job", in many cases the jobs leave with the person. He comes back to the UK for his 90 days a year, that's more than enough to do most of the stuff any of us would want to do. He spends the summer in the Med.
Anyway we cannot and should not try and compete with Singapore's zero tax but on the margin these are important considerations
tmh I think UKIP's strongest showing for the time being is going to be European Elections and By-elections. I think the potential Tory waverers to UKIP don't want to see a Labour government. I looked at the Borough I'll be voting in and its a straight race between Lib Dems and Conservative, UKIP are miles back.
EDIT: BTW do you think this Flanders story is really newsworthy ? Trying to make some implication of impropriety seems pretty weak, BBC journalist with politician. The fact she dated both Ed Balls and Miliband, who cares ?
How do they do their high earning?
Why ask when...
Essentially, we lost some ****s and in their place, some better human beings are now doing well.
...they are condemned already!!
They are mostly in financial services, although one is a (very senior) mech engineer, so on the most part they could base themselves anywhere with an internet connection, and do.Northwind - Member
digga - Member
FWIW I do know of high-earners who have already left the UK altogether...How do they do their high earning? Likewise I know of several who chose to leave the country, and you know what? We lost their tax, but someone else took over and they do pay tax. Essentially, we lost some ****s and in their place, some better human beings are now doing well.
FWIW and IMHO, as far as being 'fair', UKIP is the only party talking about increasing GDP and immigration eroding the living standard of ordinary people:
Ukip are crashing out because the election is imminent, they are swivel eyed loons, they are making loads of mistakes and their previous success was purely by election protest vote.
The group that will have a significant impact is the SNP who have made it impossible for Labour to win, leaving the Conservatives as the largest party without a majority. The Lib Dems will get wiped out so they can't prop them up this time, hung parliament here we come.
The irony is the party wanting to split up the Union is likely to have the most positive effect on finally shaking up politics long term. Thank God they lost the referendum.
As for Labour, they should be storming into power on tbe back of the last 5 years of Conservative non governance. They should be genuinely embarrased they are where they are in the polls.
Yes the populous poll has a Lab/SNP coalition well ahead in terms of most likely result
So the trident thread could be a 100 pager.
After a fortnight, the polls on seats are unchanged. Can we have the vote now and just get on with it?
Interesting the poll shows that if Jim Murphy claimed back just 5% of voters, the Lab seats would more than double (in Scotland). But if the SNO gain another 2%, then labours seats go down to just 5!!!
The group that will have a significant impact is the SNP who have made it impossible for Labour to win
They've made it much less likely that they'll win an overall majority, but much more likely that they'll end up in government. It's a win-win for us anti-tory, anti-nu-labour types. We get a labour govt with a further left minor partner who will prevent them from doing anything tory-like. And even if the lib-dems keep a decent number of MPs, something tells me they won't want to go into coalition again. They need to rehabilitate themselves with the electorate and their supporters and siding with the tories again will not do that.
something tells me they won't want to go into coalition again
Don't underestimate the appeal of power.
Ernie, we meet again.
And don't forget the law which states that the "uber rich" never have quite enough money and always need more.
Remember the Uber Rich employ people. These people who are employed then go on to pay tax and stimulate the economy. The Uber rich also pay tax, to an extent, and yes I agree tax avoidance should be debated. The motivation if Uber rich people to earn money results in research, development, innovation and technological advances.
What is wrong with people being successful in life? Would you prefer a socialist state like Cuba? I wouldn't, as it would completely suck all motivation out of me and you.
The motivation if Uber rich people to earn money results in research, development, innovation and technological advances.
involved in much r&d then?
id say the majority of innovation (certainly in medical research) happens in state/charity funded university research departments and its then spun off into the private sector but usually still developed in concert with the unis and NHS for example
I fail to see how your logic of uber rich people driving r&d and innovation makes any sort of sense
Would you prefer a socialist state like Cuba?
I think the answer to that lies in his name...
Hi Kimbers. To an extent I am involved in research. The graphene institute at the Uni of Manchester use my machines to test. Astra Zeneca is Knutsford use my machines to test, Sheffield University use my machines to teach. The list is endless. But my point isn't about research entirely. Companies have to evolve, develop and innovate new products to remain competitive, which in turn drives profit and growth.