[Closed] Should I forgive the Labour Party?

Well done ernie, add another gold star to your Pedantry badge. I guess that makes my entire argument invalid then...(if you had bothered to read it)

EDIT as ernie spotted it as well: its not pedantry you have given two different reasons for why they joined oh and said you were asked to but declined - shall we call that three reasons?

woo hoo I made a mistake with my language, may the gods of STW punish me....

The link between unions and labour is there but it might be time for it to be broken for both their sakes. Political parties need to exist in the context of the current world. If enough people supported a real socialist government you would probably get one. Problem is not enough do.

Junkyard - lazarus
Vote human remove the lizards

ernie_lynch - Member
Whilst I don't disagree that there aren't sufficient and significant differences between the Conservatives Labour and the Liberal Democrats to give people a meaningful and worthwhile choice between them, how does your claim that they do "what they're told by their bankrollers" fit in with your theory when the Labour Party is bankrolled by the affiliated trade unions?

Are you seriously suggesting that the affiliated trade unions are telling the Labour Party to behave like Tories?

Are you seriously suggesting that the aims of the affiliated trade unions are the same as the aims of wealthy tax dodging Tory donors?

If I was a statist and wanted to vote for a government I would want to know what secret societies anyone I'm supposed to vote for belongs to. And also who goes to Bilderberg meetings.
But we're not told these things and yet people still put faith into a bunch of sick, occult-obsessed, paedo-ring apologist psychopath to$$ers.
No thanks, my conscience couldn't let me.

I voted for Labour once - 1997.
I really thought they would do some good - the smoking advertising ban was a big thing.
Then,the ban was discarded, as Bernie Ecclestone had donated £1m to the Labour party.
Of course, they said the 2 things weren't related.
They are all back stabbing s**ites who would sell their Mother rather than do the right thing.

Blair has got to be the worst PM in my lifetime - he did the job for himself, not the Country, and made sure he would be a multi-millionaire when he left office.
Thatcher gets most of the diatribe about poor PMs, but she had principals, as did John Major, who was not a great PM, yet he is respected still as he didnt sell us out, unlike Blair and Brown (who sold our gold off for a ridiculously low sum).

I keep hearing 'gold'.... What use was it being put to? I would rather have £5 for a tyre I've never used in my shed today than the uncertain promise it will be worth £20 tomorrow. Especially if I really need that £5.

If tomorrow it was worth £20 i would get on with my life.

And if you feel like saying "it was a lot more than that", how much was it per person?

Anyway, shit happens. Doesn't mean it will happen again. Do you really think it was a deliberate move?

How is you ability to predict the price of gold anyway? I assume you're making a mint on the international metals market?

OK, sorry, this sounds a little rude, but it's what I think when I hear than line again!

Just a vent in general really.

woo hoo I made a mistake with my language, may the gods of STW punish me

I'm not a statist because I don't believe I need a government to tell/force me how to live my life. Do you?

IMHO there are some pretty obvious areas where it is best that we all agree the rules and behave in a certain manner for the greatest benefit of us all. Say the roads for example. I dont think having no rules or enforcement of the rules would lead to better driving conditions/standards for or by all users.

Government was a response to lawlessness. look what happens in governless countries still today. Whatever you want to describe it is as it not an outbreak of brotherly love and mutual respect for human rights.

Government is not perfect the alternative is far worse.
I agree its usually OTT and I remain a libertarian where the role of the state is largely to protect you from harm [ physical, financial, health and well being not just an enemy]

Apropos of politics in general, I quite enjoyed this BBC piece this morning on What's Gone Wrong With Party Politics - "the campaign consists of insults thrown with passionate force across the distance of a pinhead." I like that. 🙂

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32121502 ]Linky[/url]

Fear not Tony Blair is here!

The snivelling little hypocrit has arrived to help / destroy Eds chances of success.

Hang on a minute Tony, didn't you promise a referendum for the people on the EU in 2004 and 2005? Thought so.

Maybe with his reappearance we can at least slap a war crimes charge against him?

LHS - Member
Fear not Tony Blair is here!

The snivelling little hypocrit has arrived to help / destroy Eds chances of success.

Wallace needs more help to look unelectable - who knew?

Bliar is a self-serving liar. The EU issue ought to be very simple, were it not deliberately obfuscated by those with a stake.
1. In general are governments and politicians honest, efficient, hard-working and self-less, or are they self-serving, manipulative, corrupt and deaf to the concerns of voters?
2. Given your thoughts on the above, do you want more or less layers of government and tax-takers?

FFS! Just don't vote for Labour for 3 to 4 terms to let others have their fill coz Labour had theirs already. Put it this way they are all the same especially those large parties ...

Chill man chill! Have fun and turn the politics up side down for once as nothing much will change because the equilibrium is there. i.e. the British society will eventually balanced thing out in the following election.

Wake them ZM up and don't let them take you for a ride. None of them can guarantee you a better life but they will definitely guarantee themselves a better one if you do not stir things up. Power gets to their heads and if they are not taught a lesson to behave.

I mean stick to/vote the same party? Are you over 60s? 🙄

Trust the politicians? You might as well jump off London Bridge.

I would love an ID card - bloody useful to have instead of lugging a passport around.

And more convenient than having to check if you have a recent electricity bill.

I would love an ID card - bloody useful to have instead of lugging a passport around.

And more convenient than having to check if you have a recent electricity bill.

Until you lose it (or it's stolen) and suddenly you're denied all sorts of essential services and find yourself having to defend your right to be in the UK...

and find yourself having to defend your right to be in the UK...

Surely that's only really a problem for non-whites and those who speak English with a foreign accent ?

mikewsmith - Member

Blaming Labour for a shift to the right or a shift to electability is also an interesting idea. Would it please you more to have had no labour government but a labour party in opposition who's ideas were not in line with a majority of the country.

Abso-****in-lutely. That's what you do- you stay true to yourself and to your beliefs and if temporarily the country doesn't support that, you do whatever you can to change their minds. Otherwise you might as well not bother. If you change everything you hold precious in order to win, or you turn into your opposition to "beat" them, you already lost. Winning at any cost is futile.

Arguably though, they didn't have to make the swing to the right, that's the real tragedy of it.

Don't be silly, singling out people like that for scrutiny would be racist

It's like Police searches, every search of a ninety year old war veteran on his way to a remembrance parade or a great grandma toddling back from the shops with her tartan wheely cart is another box ticked and another potential terror attack foiled!

ernie_lynch - Member
Surely that's only really a problem for non-whites and those who speak English with a foreign accent ?

When my Geordie colleagues speak I tend to ask them to speak English, same goes to Liverpudlian, Brummy, Scots, Welsh or Irish etc ... 😆

With my strong North Borneo accent I speak to them in such a way slowly "Could ... you ... speak ... English ... please ... I ... don't ... understand ... you" Bang! All hell break loose ... 😆

Until you lose it (or it's stolen) and suddenly you're denied all sorts of essential services and find yourself having to defend your right to be in the UK...

FWIW the lack of ID cards is one of the reasons cited by illegal immigrants for coming to the UK

With my strong North Borneo accent .......

Have you actually got a right to be in the UK, North Borneo doesn't sound like part of the EU ?

You should forgive the Labour Party, but Tony "Iraq" Blair killed it, Gordy "Vow" Brown danced on its grave and Jim Murphy is pissing on it.

ernie_lynch - Member

With my strong North Borneo accent .......

Have you actually got a right to be in the UK, North Borneo doesn't sound like part of the EU ?

The Queen, Tony Blair and the Geordie say yes because they like me so I did not have to jump out from the back of a lorry.

FWIW the lack of ID cards is one of the reasons cited by illegal immigrants for coming to the UK

Is it true for the other 4 areas in the EU without EU ID cards?

The Queen, Tony Blair and the Geordie say yes because they like me so I did not have to jump out from the back of a lorry.

I bet Nigel Farage wouldn't like you.

I'm not convinced that you didn't jump out from the back of a lorry anyway. Got any proof?

[img] [/img]

Source?

Non-Dom

What Labour cannot say is how much this will actually riase or indeed if it will cost money. Seems odd they did nothing about the status for 13 years when in power when the number of non-doms increased dramatically.

I do think the rules should be reformed, eg non-dom payment due immediately (not after 7 or 17 years) and can be claimed for a max of say 5 or 10 years and never again. Upfront payment of £50,000 or £100,000 due immediately status is claimed. That would see upfront payments of £5.5bn to £11bn plus the taxes due on UK income. Surely a better solution.

I don't think as proposed this will raise money, Abramovich isn't going to suddenly start paying hundreds of millions in taxes. He will move abroad and spend 30 days a year here. There is a very real risk this move would reduce the tax take.

From what I read non-doms currently pay around £130,000 on average in UK taxes - that would implies a total tax take of £14bn from the 110,000 non-doms plus of course all the VAT they would pay and money they put into the economy not least by running a UK business/office as many do (and on which they pay UK taxes of course).

opps - seem's there is a recording of Balls on BBC Radio Leeds saying in January that abolishing non-dom status would probably cost the treasury money in lost taxes.

[img] http://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/585737195249655808/photo/1 [/img]

[url= http://amp.twimg.com/v/7cb7f0ad-0fbc-4481-9837-987c3dc593fb ]Video: Reforming rules raises extra taxes, abolishing them probably costs money[/url]

I don't think as proposed this will raise money, Abramovich isn't going to suddenly start paying hundreds of millions in taxes. He will move abroad and spend 30 days a year here. There is a very real risk this move would reduce the tax take.

I couldn't care less if it reduces the tax take. It's a moral question, and some things are above money, like everyone living by the same rules, irregardless of how rich they are.

Is it true for the other 4 areas in the EU without EU ID cards?

Which are they, AAMOI ?

Got off my lazy ass and Google'd - from Wikipedia:

"National identity cards are issued to citizens of all European Union member states except Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom".

Denmark does not have a national identity card, but it does have a yellow health card which serves essentially the same purpose, and has an efficient system of identity numbers (CPR-nummer) which are used for keeping track of more or less everything.

JY, French TV interviewing immigrants camped out at Calais waiting to jump onto Lorries. Its easier to work illegally in the the UK than in France.

Employment legislation might well be poorly implemented in the UK compared to other European countries but that is not because the UK lacks ID cards. To employ someone legally requires information such as NI number and tax reference. If someone can manage to find work without providing that information then I'm fairly confident that they would be able to find work without an ID card.

French TV interviewing immigrants camped out at Calais waiting to jump onto Lorries. Its easier to work illegally in the the UK than in France.

the lack of ID cards is one of the reasons cited by illegal immigrants for coming to the UK

FWIW I heard them same the same thing this am when they interviewed some in the new camp in Calais this am on Radio 4.

neither they nor you mentioned ID cards

What Labour cannot say is how much this will actually riase or indeed if it will cost money.

Seems odd they did nothing about the status for 13 years when in power when the number of non-doms increased dramatically.

Abramovich isn't going to suddenly start paying hundreds of millions in taxes. He will move abroad and spend 30 days a year here

this
[b]Wont pay cant stay
[/b]

JY he can go to 20 games a year (that's most home games) and all the Champions League away matches, still have 10 days left over. He recently bought two large houses in New York to knock into one place. Rich people in the US pay 15%-20% as there are so many offsets.

The interviews I heard where in French (translated by the wife) last week not the R4 ones I think. Also the mayor of Calais also said the UK should be forced to adopt open EU borders so we cannot stop these people at all.

@ernie, yes I take your point about finding work illegally anyway but in France the police can stop you and ask for your ID which you are obliged to carry at all times. So the police could turn up at a place of work and ask for everyone's ID. I am always surprised at how the wife carries her ID card or passport all the time and takes the rule very seriously, I have to confess I generally carry only my UK drivers licence there which isn't formally sufficient. We have today thankfully re-introduced exit checks so at least we have an idea about how many people are overstaying their visas

non-doms - well isn't tax policy about raising money ? As soon as it becomes a moral argument and we don't care if tax take is less then we have lost our way IMO. i think we should have a policy which encourages foreigners to come here and live/run their businesses but one which doesn't allow abuse by British passport holders and which has a finite eligibility period.

non-doms - well isn't tax policy about raising money ? As soon as it becomes a moral argument and we don't care if tax take is less then we have lost our way IMO.

It's about basic fairness, and that fairness underpins the entire system. If one group of people are allowed to buy themselves out of the rules which the rest adhere to, then confidence in the system is damaged and the rest will think it's fair game to avoid/evade tax, and we all know how much you're opposed to that from the Greece thread. As with any law, it only works if the population at large supports and obeys it.

By the way the 30 day rule is the most restrictive one. He might be able (probably as he has good advice / lawyers and can re-organise easily) to spend 90 days a year here without being tax resident.

Then we could say only UK residents can own a football team etc. If he wont play ball * then why should we ?

As daz keeps saying its about fairness not money
FWIW I am perfectly comfortable with the knowledge that principles and doing the right thing cost me/ the country financially. Others choose to count the pennies first then worry about morals afterwards.
This approach is not the right one and if I have to explain why it still wont be understood.

* get it eh.

@dazh - I think we agree, its just my proposal is we change the rules. For example 50k or 100k payment minimum when you declare non dom (currently it's nothing for first 7 years then 30k) and tax on all you UK earnings (as now). Max period you can claim status is 5 or 10 years and you can only claim it if you do not hold a British passport.

Plenty of countries have tax rules/payment holidays to try and encourage people to relocate themselves or their businesses. Ireland (not sure if they still do this) you pay no tax if you are a writer or musician and they give very big tax breaks to aircraft leasing for example. Germans have something similar for shipping. Portugal has tax breaks for people retiring there (trying to encourage Brits and Germans to retire there instead of Spain)

@ernie, yes I take your point about finding work illegally anyway but in France the police can stop you and ask for your ID which you are obliged to carry at all times

Don't think that's true, actually, and certainly not true for foreigners, since they ditched the "carte de sejour".

EDIT ... hmmm ... maybe I'm thinking of Holland ...

Where as here our police have no stop and search powers at all and if you just say I wont tell you when asked your name and address and refuse to provide any ID they just shrug and let you walk off.

FWIW it seems they can do it bit they dont do it as a routine matter. ie it seems more restricted than stop and search

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F1036.xhtml

So the police could turn up at a place of work and ask for everyone's ID. I am always surprised at how the wife carries her ID card or passport all the time and takes the rule very seriously

If your wife is French it won't be because she needs to prove a legal right to work that she has got into the habit of carrying her ID, ID checks can be carried out for all manner of things unrelated to employment.

And I would be interested in knowing how the amount of occasions in which "the police could turn up at a place of work and ask for everyone's ID" in France compares with the amount of occasions in the UK that the authorities turn up at a place of work checking people's legal status. I doubt that it is much more common in France or that the UK authorities are a serious disadvantage when they raid a workplace.

jambalaya - Member

in France the police can stop you and ask for your ID which you are obliged to carry at all times. So the police could turn up at a place of work and ask for everyone's ID.

Jamba, with respect, don't believe everything you think. The french id card is voluntary, and there's no legal requirement to carry it even if you have one. They also don't have a general right to challenge for ID (IIRC they can only do so within 20km of an entry point, as part of another investigation, or to prevent a breach of order)

JY, UK only would be against EU law. So it would have to be only EU residents/entities. Then you'd have to get UEFA to agree and deal with the existing foreigner owners (and deal with litigation ?), then you'd have to legislate for people setting up EU holding companies (Lux or Ireland) or getting an EU lawyer to be the nominal owner. Abramovich doesn't love Chelsea enough to pay the UK £10's millions in tax. He stood for election as provincial mayor in Russia, then passed a law to say there was zero tax on commodity profits, then channeled all his profits via that province before sending them to Cyprus (?). the thought a change in non-dom is going to impact him is naive. Dogs breakfast and just for one person ?

I strongly believe the non-dom status needs further reform but abolishing it is counterproductive.

@Northwind - Really ? I will check with the Mrs, but my understanding is you must have either your passport or an ID card at all times as I said she carries hers everywhere. The French love bureaucracy, compulsory to carry car registration, insurance and drivers licence.

but my understanding is you must have either your passport or an ID card at all times as I said she carries hers everywhere.

When I lived in France I never bothered, I knew others that did though - it can make life easier if you are young and likely to be stopped by the police. The law might have changed since then to make the carrying of ID compulsory, but I very much doubt it.

Abramovich doesn't love Chelsea enough to pay the UK £10's millions in tax. He stood for election as provincial mayor in Russia, then passed a law to say there was zero tax on commodity profits, then channeled all his profits via that province before sending them to Cyprus (?). the thought a change in non-dom is going to impact him is naive. Dogs breakfast and just for one person ?

Again, it's not about the money. What you and others who defend the indefensible fail to understand is that to most people, money is a means to and end, rather than an end in itself. Some things are more important, like fairness, integrity, equality under the law etc. What you describe is the UK effectively whoring itself out to the highest bidder(s) in exchange for a tiny bit of GDP.

@Jamba - I gather it's a total pain in the arse if you can't identify yourself (by any means- not just ID card or passport) when challenged- they have the right to hold you for several hours to try to identify you. Which seems like a licence to harass, really.

I think I'd probably carry the card, just to avoid that- enforcement by hassle rather than mandate 😉