[Closed] Shock horror, red meat will kill you.....

Donkey burger you say!

Yes, but bacon tastes gooood, pork chops taste gooood, donkey burgers taste goood.

Dave:

But the actual research they bleat on about referred to processed red meat.

Ahem...

Lead author Dr An Pan from the Department of Nutrition at Harvard, wrote in the journal: “We found that greater consumption of [b]unprocessed and processed[/b] red meats is associated with higher mortality risk.

The study said: "We found that a higher intake of red meat was associated with a significantly elevated risk of total, cardiovascular disease, and cancer mortality.

"This association was observed for [b]unprocessed and processed[/b] red meat with a relatively greater risk for processed red meat."

...anyway, c'mon Dave, get down off the fence and pick a side 8)

[img] [/img]

Have they suggested causality or just association?

Association. It was an epidimelogical study, so I think by definition can't demonstrate causality.
The processed meat being worse may be due to the extra salt in curing rather than the meat itself.
According to the nice lady on the radio this morning.
Went and had a look in the fridge at how much my sausages and bacon weigh compared to the recommended 500g. 600g - that's within engineering tolerance 🙂

According to the BBC this morning you are 20% more likely to die. I make that 120%

[i]Are they hoping we don't understand the difference between a grass fed steak and a donkey burger? [/i]

Don't think many of those people standing in the Q at McDs' are bovered.

I have trouble sourcing Grass fed stuff anyway.

According to the BBC this morning you are 20% more likely to die. I make that 120%

"The British Heart Foundation said red meat could still be eaten as part of a balanced diet."

Oh thankyou. Thankyou so much. Bless you all at the BHF. I shall make a daily sacrifice of a perfect lamb in your honour. I and my family will set aside one day a week to remember the mercy you have shown to us.

I hope we are all eternally grateful that the Holy Church of British Heart Foundation has deemed us worthy to be permitted to partake of the red meat.

On second thoughts, stop nagging us and bossing us around about what we can and can't eat.

You people must be so much fun at a dinner party.

Have they suggested causality or just association?

Someone, possibly, more intelligent than me wrote:

The study claims to prove that increased consumption of red meat increases risk of heart disease and cancer, but in fact only shows correlation without demonstrating causation. As any student of statistics will tell you, this is a serious error. It may be the case that people who eat more red meat get heart disease more often, but there's nothing to show that one is a result of the other. They could equally have reported that sleeping with your shoes on often corresponds with waking up with a headache, and that sleeping with your shoes on causes headache...

-[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/12/red-meat-death-heart-cancer#start-of-comments ]Sauce[/url]

Don't think many of those people standing in the Q at McDs' are bovered.

I got the impression that by processed they also meant finest smoked Ham and Bacon, rather then just cheaply processed.
Though not having read the report, that's pure conjecture by me:)

They could equally have reported that sleeping with your shoes on often corresponds with waking up with a headache, and that sleeping with your shoes on causes headache...

Though we did go through all these arguments with smoking for several decades too. And in fairness the statistics are normally a bit more complicated and do check for pub based lifestyle factors 🙂

At the end of the day [b]EVERYTHING[/b] kills you. Its as simple as that. The stuff that's enjoyable kills you faster

Yossarian was right. As you read this, every cell in your body is presently conspiring against you. Lighten up and have a kebab

[i]As any student of statistics will tell you, this is a serious error. It may be the case that people who eat more red meat get heart disease more often, but there's nothing to show that one is a result of the other. They could equally have reported that sleeping with your shoes on often corresponds with waking up with a headache, and that sleeping with your shoes on causes headache...[/i]

Wasn't this the [i]over sight[/i] that Ancel Keys made ?.

[i]I got the impression that by processed they also meant finest smoked Ham and Bacon, rather then just cheaply processed.
Though not having read the report, that's pure conjecture by me:) [/i]

I'd of thought theres more folk chowing down on a McDs than the finest parma ham and other bacon thingys.
However, you're right, bacon is processed, but I'd take a few rashers of bacon over a hash-brown.
Thats just my slant on all this.

Yeah but I'm putting 130% of my effort into avoiding it.

Everyone knows the maximum effort possible is 110% 🙂

Re. bacon and the like - does 'processed' include stuff like preserving, smoking etc?

I don't count bacon as 'processed' as it's just slices off a lump of pig. isn't it? it's not been altered in any way, other than maybe salted/smoked ...

And anyway, I don't smoke, I drink very little alcohol, I don't eat junk food, I don't do drugs, I exercise regularly, I eat healthily, I am not overweight and my blood pressure & cholesterol are well within recommended levels.

So by my reckoning, on average, I've offset the red meat effect, so I can eat it as many days of the week that I want.

At least, that's what my research 'suggests' 🙄

but in fact only shows correlation without demonstrating causation

it's not been altered in any way, other than maybe [b]salted/smoked[/b]

<edit> no idea exactly what does and does not count as processed but I'd take a wild stab in the dark that those two would

maybe

There are so many associations between red meat eating and other aspects of unhealthy lifestyle, it makes it quite tough to accurately adjust your results completely for those.

The modest increase in risk of 'early death' from heart disease and cancer - both of their study groups followed people into their 70s, so we're not necessarily talking about really early death, is linked with eating at least one extra portion of red meat a day.

I don't think you can use it to draw any reliable conclusions about having bacon or lamb chops a couple of times a week as part of an otherwise healthy diet.

And anyway, I don't smoke, I drink very little alcohol, I don't eat junk food, I don't do drugs, I exercise regularly, I eat healthily, I am not overweight and my blood pressure & cholesterol are well within recommended levels.

You naive fool! Have you not realised that God is a sick, twisted bastard! You're unknowingly lining yourself up to die in some freak falling-grand-piano related incident

Well if its just association im really really not concerned 🙂

(not that i would have been anyway)
[url] http://hellokinsella.posterous.com/the-daily-mail-list-of-things-that-give-you-c [/url]

Shock horror, red meat will kill you.....

Kill it first - less chance of getting trampled

You naive fool! Have you not realised that God is a sick, twisted bastard! You're unknowingly lining yourself up to die in some freak falling-grand-piano related incident

Ah religion now that will kill you early!

(In a study of suicide bombers it was found that religion was a major contributing factor to premature death)

titusrider ^^^ isn't that just a list of everything that exists in the world?

Popularist journalism and scientific research does not mix........

[i]isn't that just a list of everything that exists in the world?[/i]
😆

**I've not bothered to look at the list, I've seen that sort of thing before**

I can't help but wonder.
When you see so many people who [i]appear[/i] to be eating the [i]wrong ?[/i] stuff.
Yet who get way into their 50s, 60s, 70s.
Either its all mumbo-jumbo or the human body can't half take some abuse over what is for us, a life time.

[i]Popularist journalism and scientific research does not mix........ [/i]

Well.... they do kinda.
Just add a liberal dose of blog.

(In a study of suicide bombers it was found that religion was a major contributing factor to premature death)

Hopefully, they all drive VWs as well.

According to the BBC this morning you are 20% more likely to die.

Hey.

Guess what...

On second thoughts, stop nagging us and bossing us around about what we can and can't eat.

i dont know where to start with this one but do they all think we are stupid.

they studies show you would have to eat half a cows arse to suffer any issues.on the other hand just one maccy d,s a week has the same effect .

its more about the form it comes in that just the meat .....bastards i tell thee.

dunno why people are getting so het up about this
(apart from those with a vested interest...... say if you have a company that promotes a diet that advocates eating lots of red meat 😉 )

eating too much red and processed meat increases your risk of heart disease and cancer
(tbh i was considering putting bowel cancer on the idave diet side effects thread but decided against it)

people are advised not to eat too much of either

you can follow that advice and probably live a bit longer or ignore it
the same way you can choose to wear a helmet when cycling or not

[i]dunno why people are getting so het up about this[/i]

Err, I don't think any one is.
Its just a discussion.
😉

[i]eating too much red and processed meat increases your risk of heart disease and cancer

people are advised not too eat too much of either
[/i]

** Not directed at Kimbers specifically **
But makes me wonder... How much meat should you eat a day/week, etc ?.

if I eat some grass after my triple bacon cow-arse burger, will I be ok?

[i]if I eat some grass after my triple bacon cow-arse burger, will I be ok?[/i]

Try it and let us know.
After all, whats the worst that could happen ?.

How much meat should you eat a day/week, etc ?.

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/MediaCentre/Pressreleases/DH_124670

The Department advises:

* people who eat a lot of red or processed meat - around 90g or more of cooked weight per day - are at greater risk of getting bowel cancer;
* cutting down to the UK average of 70g a day can help reduce the risk; and
* this can be achieved by eating smaller portions or by eating red and processed meat less often.

Examples of a 70g portion of meat are:

* one medium portion shepherds pie and a rasher of bacon;
* two standard beef burgers;
* six slices of salami;
* one lamb chop;
* two slices of roast lamb, beef or pork; or
* three slices of ham.

if I eat some grass after my triple bacon cow-arse burger, will I be ok?

Wrong way round. Smoke the grass, then have the burger.

they studies show you would have to eat half a cows arse to suffer any issues.on the other hand just one maccy d,s a week has the same effect .

I'm not sticking up for McD's but I can't see how their burgers are any worse for you than any prepackaged sandwich full of salt, sugar and mayo, etc.

Surely this is just another report about how eating anything to extremes is not a good idea. The other week they were moaning on the radio that kids drink too many fruit juice based drinks these days and there teeth are taking a hamming. Really? You do surprise me. FFS!

How much meat should you eat a day/week, etc ?.

Yeh, these so-called 'experts' are brilliant aren't they...

"ooooh, don't eat too much of that, you'll be killed to death"

"ah, ok ... so, how much is too much?"

"oh, we've no idea about that..."

oao3v16 - Member

How much meat should you eat a day/week, etc ?.

Yeh, these so-called 'experts' are brilliant aren't they...

"ooooh, don't eat too much of that, you'll be killed to death"

"ah, ok ... so, how much is too much?"

"oh, we've no idea about that..."

* cutting down to the UK average of 70g a day can help reduce the risk; and

The Department advises:

* people who eat a lot of red or processed meat - around 90g or more of cooked weight per day - are at greater risk of getting bowel cancer;

Ok. Please explain more.

* cutting down to the UK average of 70g a day can help reduce the risk;

Pray tell, how in the name of all that's holy do I reduce my intake from 90g to 70g. For the life of me I cannot imagine how on earth it could be achieved without some kind of great technological breakthrough. Or maybe an 'app' on my smartphone.

* this can be achieved by eating smaller portions or by eating red and processed meat less often.

Ah. Put less of it into my mouth. Thank goodness for advice like this. I would never have thought of that all by myself.

Now can you help me get dressed and tie my shoe laces. Thanks.

I might also need my bottom wiping later if I need a poo.

Looking through the data it would appear that the people who eat the most meat also smoked the most.
[url] http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content-nw/full/archinternmed.2011.2287v1/IOI110027T1 [/url]

Also of interest is that the odds of High Cholesterol appear inversely proportional to the amount of meat eaten.

IanMunro - Member

Looking through the data it would appear that the people who eat the most meat also smoked the most.
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content-nw/full/archinternmed.2011.2287v1/IOI110027T1

Also of interest is that the odds of High Cholesterol appear inversely proportional to the amount of meat eaten.

but also increased high blood pressure and bmi

[i]I hope we are all eternally grateful that the Holy Church of British Heart Foundation has deemed us worthy to be permitted to partake of the red meat.

On second thoughts, stop nagging us and bossing us around about what we can and can't eat.[/i]

ffs.

Eah !, Eah !.

Calm down.

[img] [/img]

Just wondered... how much meat / protein one ought to be aiming for and whether this varies with certain goals, etc.....
😉

Anyone know who funded the research? I believe a lot of studies are funded by companies with a vested interest in the outcome.

Hopk1ns - Member

Anyone know who funded the research? I believe a lot of studies are funded by companies with a vested interest in the outcome.

IanMunro - Member

Looking through the data it would appear that the people who eat the most meat also smoked the most.
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content-nw/full/archinternmed.2011.2287v1/IOI110027T1

Also of interest is that the odds of High Cholesterol appear inversely proportional to the amount of meat eaten.

i believe it was the international spinach growers lobby 😕

i believe it was the international spinach growers lobby

In the pockets of Big Popeye, no doubt.

ffs.

How do you pronounce that?

Is it Welsh? It looks like it might be Welsh. What with no vowels in it.

Or it's one of the noises my 9-month-old makes. He's not Welsh.

He's not Welsh.

but what if he chooses to become 'Welsh' in the future.
you may think it's not natural and ungodly to be 'Welsh' but you should respect his decision nonetheless and offer him your support in his lifestyle choice.

[i]offer him your support in his lifestyle choice[/i]

But surely its not a [i][b]Lifestyle[/b] choice[/i].

Aren't they born that way, but just need to [i]come out[/i] ?.

On second thoughts, stop nagging us and bossing us around about what we can and can't eat.

Yeah, how dare they try and find out what's causing premature deaths! Saving lives?! Who the hell do they think they are?!

Yeh, these so-called 'experts' are brilliant aren't they...

Yes they are. If you were half as clever as them you'd realise that they aren't saying stuff like that. Have you ever read a scientific paper?

Oh and I love all these 'you'll die anyway' posters, like you're some kind of clever clogs who's just discovered some great truth that all these idiots don't know. When you reach 68 would you like to be told you have 2 years left or 20?

At the end of the day EVERYTHING kills you. Its as simple as that. The stuff that's enjoyable kills you faster

Yeh, these so-called 'experts' are brilliant aren't they..

Aye there is not enough nonsensical irrate adiatribes from ill informed IT geeks on a forum. We need to do something about this and remake ignorance King, I thank you for your sterling efforts in re dressing the balance between wise and informerd and ignorant and angry

Yeah, how dare they try and find out what's causing [b]premature[/b] deaths!

[i]Oh and I love all these 'you'll die anyway' posters, like you're some kind of clever clogs who's just discovered some great truth that all these idiots don't know. [b]When you reach 68 would you like to be told you have 2 years left or 20?[/b] [/i]

Luvin this ^^

[i]My lentil burger and green leaf salad with miso dressing is trying to kill me, are you sure fat boy[/i]
😆

[i]Aye there is not enough nonsensical irrate adiatribes from ill informed IT geeks on a forum. We need to do something about this and remake ignorance King, I thank you for your sterling efforts in re dressing the balance between wise and informerd and ignorant and angry [/i]

Read that twice.
I still can't understand a word.
🙂

Yeah, how dare they try and find out what's causing premature deaths!

Problem is, there are so many different things that their research 'suggests' may cause premature death that it's impossible for anyone to remember what they all are, and if we could we'd become terminally paranoid about every little decision and eventually go insane trying to live up to their recommendations ... after a point I'm happy to live in ignorance and enjoy life rather than constantly worrying about a vast list of things that might one day kill me ...

[i]Problem is, there are so many different things that their research 'suggests' may cause premature death that it's impossible for anyone to remember what they all are, and if we could we'd become terminally paranoid about every little decision and eventually go insane trying to live up to their recommendations ... after a point I'm happy to live in ignorance and enjoy life rather than constantly worrying about a vast list of things that might one day kill me ... [/i]

Yes, not withstanding the little clocks on the ends of our chromosomes...
😉

Problem is, there are so many different things that their research 'suggests' may cause premature death that it's impossible for anyone to remember what they all are

That's why the scientists publish in scientific journals. It's the media that trawl the abstracts for stuff they can reprocess into crap stories, thereby causing untold damage to the cause of healthy eating and to the reputation of the scientific commnunity.

Bolx it is, aye. You're not supposed to read the articles and go "OMG I MUST STOP EATING MEAT COS THEY HAVE SAID SO!'. You're just being told that some scientists have found a correlation and that's a piece of information you may choose to use when deciding what to have for lunch, or you may not.

If red meat is so bad for you,why have I never seen a sickly looking Tiger?

[i]If red meat is so bad for you,why have I never seen a sickly looking Tiger[/i]

I love this.

Let me guess......... Err, um.

I've got it !.

Is it cos they don't smoke cigarettes ?.

Is it ok to have red meat with a class of wine, followed by dark chocolate? Aren't the latter supposed to reduce the risk of cancer and heart disease..?

[i]Is it ok to have red meat with a class of wine, followed by dark chocolate? Aren't the latter supposed to reduce the risk of cancer and heart disease..?[/i]

You can eat and drink those things if you wish.

And, you don't have to attend a class to do so.
😉

There's a lot of whining self-justification here. It's very simple: if you don't want to reduce your red meat consumption, then don't: nobody's going to make you.

monkeycmonkeydo - Member

If red meat is so bad for you,why have I never seen a sickly looking Tiger?

i think its because frosties are fortified with cisplatin

oh and ransos is correct

[i]There's a lot of whining self-justification here. It's very simple: if you don't want to reduce your red meat consumption, then don't: nobody's going to make you.[/i]

Here, Here !.
Nobody is holding a gun to your head.
🙂

I'd like to see the research factor in things like corn syrup and sugar - often what is eaten with meat can be worse than the meat. But if they don't look they don't find.

If red meat is so bad for you,why have I never seen a sickly looking Tiger?

Are you a tiger?

Problem is with research it tends to be narrow in scope so you can actually get some sort of quantifiable answer, even if it's in terms of probability.

[img] [/img]

Red meat kills you,and too much chicken gives you man boobs,
Bet fastfood outlets are shitting it.

iDave - Member
I'd like to see the research factor in things like corn syrup and sugar - often what is eaten with meat can be worse than the meat. But if they don't look they don't find.

Here you go:

note - this caused quite a controversy

CaptJon - I posted that last week! Boils my piss.

Oh, i saw it on a blog by a guy who doesn't understand simple statistics:

http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-alarmism/

That was a good vid.

Cheers iDave.

I liked the phrase "[i]Like drinking a pizza[/i]" when referring to the salt content of some of those fizzy drinks.

They said adding an extra portion of unprocessed red meat to someone's daily diet would increase the risk of death by 13%

Wow - so my risk of death would then be 113%. That's bad.

Correlation, not causation. There doesn't appear to be a control group in this study. I CBA reading academic studies - has anybody here read the original paper rather than just the media reports of it? Did they do anything at all to try and determine whether what they were seeing was directly related to eating meat, or whether there were other lifestyle correlations related to eating red meat which might be risk factors?

I'm not about to dispute that red meat in excessive quantities is a health risk, but this study doesn't appear to have furthered the scientific proof of that one little bit.

I have nothing to add, other than that this thread is [i]fantastic[/i]

To be fair the nice lady on the radio yesterday did say that the research was based on a reply form and not someone measuring the actual amounts people ate through their lives. She also went on to say that people are notoriously bad at filling in these forms (how much do you tell the doc you drink?). If it weren't bad for you I think she'd be taking the findings with a pinch of salt.

Yeh, these so-called 'experts' are brilliant aren't they

Funny how when a scientist tells you something like smoking kills - you would nod in violent agreement and look down on those who smoke, yet when they attack your precious red-meat you can just dismiss it out of hand! 🙄