sheepist!

according to CROW you should have your dog on a lead at all times when on access land during breeding season. it's not just sheep that need protecting at this time of year

yeah! leadist!

Even well-behaved dogs can scare wildlife away from their young. Disturbance during the breeding season for ground-nesting birds (1 March - 31 July) can lead to eggs not hatching. Predators can also take young chicks if their distracted parents leave them unguarded.

I believe its actually under close control. that doesn't necessarily mean on a lead.

Please note these restrictions apply to all open access land:

From 1st March to 31st July dogs must be kept on a short lead (no more than two metres) to protect ground nesting birds.

At all times of the year dogs must be kept on a short lead (no more than two metres) in the vicinity of livestock.

from natural england website

I believe its actually under close control. that doesn't necessarily mean on a lead.

Whatever it is, running about off a lead isnt close control. Dont do it, your dog might get shot.

I know what close control is and my collie will happily walk alongside me right through the middle of a flock of sheep without a lead. most days in fact.

oops. worms and cans spring to mind.

no useful responses.

It doesn't have to be access land.

I wouldn't risk it, just think, it could be a baby robins face. Also the rangers use crossbows for canine control, you don't wanna make them folk angry!

rangers/wardens/ROW officers are being particularly hot on it this year apparently. as stated above, during breeding season close control is not considered to be enough. I absolutely believe that a very well trained dog can be under the same amount of control as when on a leash, however, setting a good example is never a bad thing, not everyone's dog is as under control as yours.

ok, so there's [i]nowhere[/i] in the lakes I can let my dogs off the lead?

jam bo - Member

I believe its actually under close control. that doesn't necessarily mean on a lead.

Yup -close control around livestock / ground nesting birds. Under control at all times

supersessions9-2
Only if you can control them and only if its outside of ground nesting birds nesting season - ie they recall to heel or lie down on command so you can bring them back to close control when livestock are around. Farmers can and do shoot dogs running around amongst livestock

of course there is. just not access land. use your eyes. best bet will be around the reservoirs that have shore lines. a bit of common sense applied to avoid sensitive nesting sites. you'll find a lot of the low level fields have no sheep in as they'll have been tipped out onto t'moors now. mown hay meadows are a good bet.

TJ - as i've already said, in England your access to CROW open access land is conditional on your dog being on a lead during nesting season and around livestock.

Farmers can and do shoot dogs running around amongst livestock

I know, hence my original question about sheep-free areas.

Beaches near Barrow.

Although having just spent 20 minutes cleaning dogshit out of my tyres, again, I'd rather you stayed at home with it.

I see the belligerent arses of STW are out in force again.... There really is no point in asking a normal sensible question on here. You just get preached at by miserable self-important know-it-alls.

oh do be quiet.

you asked a question.

i gave you an answer which was 'not access land'

there was some discussion as to the wording of the law.

then i gave you some recommendations as did crikey.

phone the tourist board if you don't have the sense to glean some useful information from the replies on here

Yeh, I mean you could go to Fell Foot or somewhere like that. It just wouldnt be much fun for families, trying to avoid your dogs shit when they want to sit down for a picnic

Farmers can and do shoot dogs running around amongst livestock

I am not sure this is actually true, and has anyone seen this first hand?

The reason I doubt this is quite simply that the dog and the sheep will be fast moving, and the farmer will be using a shotgun, as if he is using a high powered rifle he has to ensure that the fall zone is safe, so he isn't going to legally be able to use it.

Therefore, if a farmer blasts away at any dog chasing sheep, he is running quite a high risk of hitting the sheep as well as the dog. This combined with the fact, that the effective range of a shotgun is around 20 meters, leads me to believe the 'legend' of farmers shooting the dogs as they chase sheep around a field to be made up by people who don't know what they are talking about, and like to preach shit on internet forums.

Just an observation.

What I suspect happens, is they report the dog for chasing sheep, and if they catch you, you end up with a large fine and the bollocking of your life, second time it happens you end up with an even larger fine and the dog is destroyed.

No, it does actually happen believe it or not!

it's extremely uncommon these days particularly as less and less farmers actually have a firearms licence and would struggle to keep it anyway unless they could prove they had exhausted all other avenues of control. it used to happen. it's still bandied about as a threat by some farmers.

No, it does actually happen believe it or not!

Have you seen it first hand, or know someone who has seen it first hand?

If you honestly believe you know a farmer who can shoot a dog chasing a sheep (hence zig zagging etc) in a field without hitting his own livestock using a shotgun with an effective/accurate range of 20M, you need to put the farmer forward for the Olympics shooting squad, as we should be able to get all the golds with him/her on the team

Have you seen it first hand, or know someone who has seen it first hand?

No I havent seen it first hand. Although a woman who lived a couple of miles down the road from me used to have a little yorkshire terrier. It escaped into the farmers field behind her house. He shot it. Fair play.

i've seen the aftermath and certainly know farmers that would try it and have threatened people before. it really is rare though, the law is more to help against persistent escapees and stray animals.

So he managed to hit/kill a Yorkshire terrier, zig-zagging across a field, moving rapidly between other much larger fast moving targets, with a weapon designed to put shot into a large area, without hitting the larger slower, more numerous objects .......... ?

I suspect the reality might be a little different to what you imagine. Come on think about it, the farmer is killing the dog to protect his livelihood (which is fair enough) so he sure as hell isn't going to risk killing/injuring (vets aren't cheap!) one, two or more sheep for the sake of the chance of a lucky shot hitting the dog. They are business men, if they started blasting into flocks of sheep, hoping for a lucky shot they are going to be losing their farm pretty quickly.

I don't doubt farmers have shot dogs in the past, but that was more than likely after they had killed the sheep and were eating it, hence were stationary, and you don't have to worry about killing your live stock.

Why the presumption that i will let my dogs shit everywhere and then leave it?

This is the sanctimonious attitude I was complaining about earlier.

I am a responsible enough dog owner that I want to take my dogs somewhere I can let them off the lead where they will not bother livestock or protected wildlife, I think you can presume I will clear up after them as well.

All I wanted was first hand recommendations of suitable locations, maybe places where other stw dog owners have done the same thing.

Not a bloody run down of the law and some grumpy begrudged recommendations moaning about someone elses dog shit.

Yeah i get pissed off too if I ride through dog shit. Especially seeing I take the effort of removing from trails.

So

I have Fell Foot, Barrow beaches, and lake shore trails.

thank you.

So he managed to hit/kill a Yorkshire terrier, zig-zagging across a field, moving rapidly between other much larger fast moving targets, with a weapon designed to put shot into a large area, without hitting the larger slower, more numerous objects .......... ?

No, quite the opposite infact!

He had other interests, apart from farming (unusual perhaps, I know). One of these was medieval reenactments and the like, and he was very much into his archery. He took his longbow and split the yorkie down the middle! What a man

what makes you think a shotgun would be employed? you'd use a rifle, its not difficult to hit a moving target especially if you're used to shooting foxes, rabbits, hares, deer, etc.

What about Tarn Hows?

you'd never shoot at a moving fox with a rifle. more to the point you'd never [i]hit[/i] a moving fox with a rifle. they are tiny, generally far away and bloody fast movers!

I know a part of the country where dogs can roam off the lead and play in the sea to their hearts content and probably not see another dog/person or sheep all day!

But I'm not going to tell you 🙂

what makes you think a shotgun would be employed? you'd use a rifle, its not difficult to hit a moving target especially if you're used to shooting foxes, rabbits, hares, deer, etc.

So you believe that farmers regularly shoot deer, foxes and rabbits with high powered rifles ...........

Which country are you in? As it certainly isn't the UK?

You are showing unbelievably levels of ignorance about what safe guards and checks are put into place before people are allowed to use high powered weapons to cull/kill deer, and who in their right mind you would use a high powered rifle to kill a rabbit!?! When all you need is a bright lamp, and a shotgun and you can walk right upto them without risking killing members of the local scout group on a hike.

Come on think about what you are saying, a shotgun has an effective range of 20M so is impracticable to use when killing a dog chasing a sheep, a high powered rifle has an effective range of 1.5 to 2 MILES........... So if you miss the dog, you have to be aware that the bullet is going to keep going for a very very long way, and you need to be 100% certain that it isn't going to hit something its not supposed to or else you are going to be in a lot of trouble, and you have a split second to make this judgement before the target has moved again.

He had other interests, apart from farming (unusual perhaps, I know). One of these was medieval reenactments and the like, and he was very much into his archery. He took his longbow and split the yorkie down the middle! What a man

Now I know you are making it up, considering the state of most re-enactors I've met he would be lucky to hit the field let alone the dog.

So he managed to hit/kill a Yorkshire terrier, zig-zagging across a field, moving rapidly between other much larger fast moving targets, with a weapon designed to put shot into a large area, without hitting the larger slower, more numerous objects .......... ?

Where did the assumption of using a shotgun come from? And the answers yes, compared to most of the stuff you can legaly shoot a dog is a pretty large target.

Back to the OP, we used to take our dog sailing, land on one of the islands and let him run himself ragged, only way we found to teach him to play fetch was to repeatedly throw sticks there untill he learnt to bring them back! Still a good place to go to let them run wild even once they are trained.

Current dog has gone a bit mad form too long in rescue kennles, won't respond to any commands despite being an ex prison dog! Might have to try the same.

As for Crikey and DavidTailyForth, are youi proposing banning cheep, cows, geese and small children form the countryide? Plenty of poo, noise and running arround off the lead form those 'user groups' as well.

Christ almighty there are some idiots on here.

OP - like you we can't trust our dog 100% off leash so we steer clear of livestock completly. The best place we have found is what you have already suggested - Grizedale, walking over from the back of Hawkshead to Tarn Hows there are a lot of fields with no livestock where he gets a good sprint off lead too.

Where did the assumption of using a shotgun come from? And the answers yes, compared to most of the stuff you can legaly shoot a dog is a pretty large target.

Because if he was using a high powder rifle, then he would have to be very very careful in order to minimise the risk to the public. A professional deer stalker would think twice about being able to make the shot, whilst ensuring all safeguards have been made, and they are going to be a 100X better shot than farmer Giles.

Hence the likelihood of a farmer, having the gun to hand (you don't just have these things in your car, just incase), and taking the shot are virtually zero, especially considering he would know if he missed the dog and hit something/one he wasn't supposed too he would lose his farm.

So considering farmers are businessmen, first and foremost, I would expect him in the circumstances described to follow it home, land the owner with a huge fine, and then get the dog legally and safely destroyed.

Which of those scenarios do you think is more likely? When you weigh up the pros and cons, and are betting your livelihood, legacy and inheritance on.

Even if theres no livestock in the fields it may not be ok to walk your dog there. My mate puts "no dog walking" signs up on his fields that he uses for silage. I dont think he wants to feed his animals dog shit.

You are showing unbelievably levels of ignorance about what safe guards and checks are put into place before people are allowed to use high powered weapons to cull/kill deer, and who in their right mind you would use a high powered rifle to kill a rabbit!?! When all you need is a bright lamp, and a shotgun and you can walk right upto them without risking killing members of the local scout group on a hike.

Come on think about what you are saying, a shotgun has an effective range of 20M so is impracticable to use when killing a dog chasing a sheep, a high powered rifle has an effective range of 1.5 to 2 MILES........... So if you miss the dog, you have to be aware that the bullet is going to keep going for a very very long way, and you need to be 100% certain that it isn't going to hit something its not supposed to or else you are going to be in a lot of trouble, and you have a split second to make this judgement before the target has moved again

WTF? Lamping rabits with a shotgun? There'd be nothing left to eat? .22 air rifle is all you want to use.

As for the "killing members of the local scout group" unless they're in the 2ft between the dog and the ground they're pretty safe unless the dog happens to be right on the top of the hilla and the farmer right at the bottom of the hill looking up, they're probably safe.

And why the pre-occupation with shotguns? They'd struggle to kill anything bigger than a phesant beyond close range.

So you believe that farmers regularly shoot deer, foxes and rabbits with high powered rifles

No, just the deer, the fox and the rabbits would be with a .22 rifle, the rabbits a .22 air rifle.

Whinlatter, Dodd, Lowther Park/Dent(west coast) Setmurthy etc etc. Basically any of the forests would be fine. High fells are pretty much fine too so long as you have some sort of control of your dog. You don't see so many sheep on the tops as the grazing is cr@p and they tend to steer clear of the main walkers routes..... generally. 😉

Hence the likelihood of a farmer, having the gun to hand (you don't just have these things in your car, just incase

We clearly hang arround with different farmers.

So considering farmers are businessmen, first and foremost

Farmers are farmers, its a way of life!

the fox and the rabbits would be with a .22 rifle

.22 is too small for foxes, unless you are very close or very lucky, and dogs are typically much bigger than foxes

LHS, ANC and David taylforth. Thank you for your suggestions.

.22 is too small for foxes, unless you are very close or very lucky, and dogs are typically much bigger than foxes

GPMG on a bipod with a crate-load of 7.62mm. That'll do your foxes and your dogs. And probably your elephants, if you're unlucky enough to have one sh!tting among your sheep while not on a leash.

We clearly hang arround with different farmers.

Don't let the smell of manure confuse you - he's not really a farmer. 😉

Farmers do shoot dogs on a fairly regular basis.

A quick google gives
http://www.****/news/article-490776/Family-devastated-farmer-let-shooting-puppy.html

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/FARMER-SHOT-DOG-FIELD/story-12677534-detail/story.html

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Farmer-shoots-dog-that-was.3860360.jp

http://www.dunfermlinepress.com/news/roundup/articles/2011/02/25/410568-farmers-warning-ill-shoot-on-sight/

dont, let ur bloody dog wipe out half the country side, if i saw it on my land it would be a dead dog. Coz sheep/ cows / ducks/ my pet cat are nicer than dogs, and they dont look so nice when half of them is missing 🙁

finding his animals with horrific injuries and "dying on their feet" following a dog attack on 13th February..."The injuries were absolutely horrific. Those we had to destroy were beyond help – the skin was torn from the back of their heads all the way down their faces and you could see their teeth.

this quote sums up why farmers shoot dogs, and dont lose to much sleep over it.

**** me, TJ is even quoting the Daily Mail now.

Also reading those articles, TJ has nicely highlighted my point, so thanks for the links.

Farmers don't shoot the animals when they are chasing livestock. Once they have stopped however, its a different matter.

sorry richc - I won't do it again

Awful lot of poorly informed BS on this thread.

Yes, farmers can and do shoot dogs. it's pretty rare, and will be the result of someone being at the end of their tether and probably knowing which dog is the culprit.

shotguns v rifles v longbows 😆

Well, first off, bow hunting is illegal in the UK

Shotguns v rifles... well shotgun is going to be the most common gun available within the countryside / farming communities. Some farmers keep .22 rifles for rabbits - I know, both my cousin and my father kept .22s. My father got rid of his 30+ years ago as the licensing requirements just got too prescriptive. AKAIK my cousin still has his - only really got used for rabbits. .22 doesn't have a lot of stopping power for anything else...

Shotgun? well that will do very well for a fox. we used to go on the local estate vermin shoots, and although i've never taken a shot at a fox with a 12 bore, that was the standard tool for foxes (never any hunting with hunds on that estate). We always carried a couple of Eley Alphamax 3" magnum shells in case we came across a fox... (range probably good for 45 yds, and about as good a stopping power as you legally get with a 12g)

I have to admit, I have never seen a farmer out protecting his livestock with a longbow and I am not 100% sure what I would do if I did ......

Only on STW do people come up with stuff like that 🙂

So does this mean I can shoot cats sh!tting in my garden?

Hell, I'll even unleash the hamster so they're roaming through my livestock.

who knows; I should imagine someone will be along in a minute to say, yes, if using a specially trained barn owl. As it seems to be 'make shit up, Monday'

richc - Member
who knows; I should imagine someone will be along in a minute to say, yes, if using a specially trained barn owl. As it seems to be 'make shit up, Monday'

well if you can go hawking for rabbits im sure you can hawking for Yorkshire terriers, 🙂 (joke)

Its a sea eagle or Erne you want for sorting out cats. No one argues with one of them they weigh over 6 kg and have a wingspan of over 8 feet. sort a stupid little cat out no problem

how do you train a sea eagle?

With a big stick.

what do they eat? apart from cats?

I think you will find the answer to that question is actually: 'carefully'

ilovemygears - Member

what do they eat? apart from cats?

Tired hillwalkers / cyclists are a fave snack. Hillwalkers lunch a close second. They can often be found outside Greggs trying to get a pasty as well.

at least the views will be nice as you pick dog crap up & put it in your pocket 😉

timc - Member
at least the views will be nice as you pick dog crap up & put it in your pocket

Epicly funny i must say:)

I never said "high powered" rifle, I said rifle, and if you were shooting from an elevated position the only place a stray bullet would go is into the ground.

I grew up on a farm and know lots of farmers none AFAIK have ever shot a dog, the fact TJ that those articles have made the papers suggests to me its pretty rare. Farmers will start to get trigger happy and sit in wait if its happend before though I suppose. I have seen a dog worrying sheep first hand. We managed to catch it (I say we what I mean is the dogs caught it) the owner said it couldnt have been her dog as it was a collie and they like sheep FFS. A lot of shot dogs are poachers dogs shot by keepers, the keepers generally have the right weapons and ability to hit a target.

as for weapon of choice a clean kill would be essential, who 'd want an angry yorkshire terrier charging thier grandma? so i'd think that something mobile high velocity and preferably HE would fit the bill.. no i havent seen many farmers tanks either, but i bet john deere do a 'off the menu'' model if you ask.

i think a ground to ground missile would do the best job

AA - from various reports there are a few dogs shot every year in the pentlands - a small area of hills near edinburgh

I see your mutt townie... Get orf my land!

[img] [/img]

Awful lot of poorly informed BS on this thread.

it is STW after all.
most of the BS is from people who don't hold a firearms certificate and have never regularly shot deer/foxes/rabbits (or dogs!) on private farmland yet are suddenly experts on the subject.

Have you seen it first hand, or know someone who has seen it first hand?

Well, two were shot last year on the farm where my in-laws live in Wales. Understandably, the farmer took a pretty dim view of the dogs chasing his pregnant ewes towards a large cliff. I have no idea what ICBM / water pistol he used to achieve this task, but it seemed to be pretty effective.

I am sure on the whole it is pretty rare, but it does happen. Take a look at some of the more graphic notices at gates into fields where dog attacks have happened. It appears that cute liddle Rover who wouldn't hurt a mite did have quite a taste for sheep. Understandably, if the farmer then happens to be in the right place at the right time to interviene, then they probably will, using whatever means is deemed by them on their land to be the most suitable to protect their business.

Not the same incident, but a good article to demonstrate the point:

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2009/02/04/devil-dogs-go-on-sheep-killing-rampage-in-denbigh-55578-22850805/

mrmichaelwright - Member
you'd never shoot at a moving fox with a rifle. more to the point you'd never hit a moving fox with a rifle. they are tiny, generally far away and bloody fast movers!

PS on walk I go on regularly near my home a woman I meet has 4 dogs with her, 3 German shepards and 1 cocker Spaniel. They are never on leads & they are never wearing COLLARS. The dogs always run at me snarling (only the German shepards). She is noramly able to call them back BUT imagine if I had children with me or my mother. She is the only dog owner that use the footpath and it is covered in dog crap. Last time her dogs ran at me I told her what I think of her. Now I believe in equal rights so you can imagine what I said to her? She has never ever talked to me so she maybe jsut a fruit cake? I think I know where she parks her car so next time I will get her number. By the way I am fairly certain this can be defined as blocking a public footpath? I now have to carry a weapon with me. Pity I cannot enjoy a walk without this stress?

By the way a lot of the people killed by cattle are trying to catch there dog who is worrying the cattle eventualy the cattle turn on the dog and the owner gets "run over" by the cattle who have had enough of the dog..........good

SD-253

Are you in the UK? If so

Do not take weapon - you are then in the wrong.

You can report her to the council - a witness would be helpful. Dogs not under control and dog fouling. You local council amy bhave byelaws restricting dogs

You can report her to the police under dangerous dogs act - if the dog puts you in reasonable fear of harm

Its nothing to do with blocking a footpath

Most farmers would put a pair of dogs in (legaly I might add) and sit in wait for the fox to come out shooting it on the run

with a shot gun

They're missing a trick those farmers. They should use a Phased Plasma Rifle in a 40 watt range.

By the way a lot of the people killed by cattle are trying to catch there dog who is worrying the cattle eventualy the cattle turn on the dog and the owner gets "run over" by the cattle who have had enough of the dog..........good

I think you'll find it tends to be the dog walkers who kept their dogs on a lead that get trampled.

But it's nice that you'll wish that on someone.

Are you in the UK? If so

Do not take weapon - you are then in the wrong.

TandemJeremy - Member
You can report her to the council - a witness would be helpful. Dogs not under control and dog fouling. You local council amy bhave byelaws restricting dogs

You can report her to the police under dangerous dogs act - if the dog puts you in reasonable fear of harm

Its nothing to do with blocking a footpath

You are making far to many asumption TandemJeremy I am perfectly entilted to take a stick with me. AND I am not in the wrong about blocking a footpath if a farmer did the same he would be guilty of blocking the footpath and you would agree with that (ohh am I making assumptions to?). AS she is woman I do not believe for one minute that the police would do anything about it. Recently I got some abuse from a woman I rang the police who said "she has not rung us" or put another way only a women can complain of abuse (she compalined the next day). The following day a policeman went to the farmer (whose land I was on) insisting that he tell him (the police officer) the name of the person who was involved in the incident (ie me). The officer I had complained to had not gone to see the woman (despite saying he would) nor had he loged the incident. Yet again this was dog incident albeit the dogs were behind a 8 foot fence (the type that builers use ie not safe). the same dogs had escaped and attacked the farmers fathers car (he was in it) the dogs were on the bonnet trying there best to get at the old man. By the way I would not dream of taking out either of my knives (mushroom and skinning) which I nearly always have with me. I wonder if you would think the same (no weapon) if your wife parents or children were at risk? Csll the police or council she will be well away never mind the fact she is a woman.

You local council amy bhave byelaws restricting dogs

I think you will find this is more likely to be a country wide ie a law, council do not inact laws parliment does