[Closed] Shame on you English

I'm waiting with baited breath to see what happens when we ask to borrow the Stone of Destiny at the next coronation 😆

I guess we ought to start arming ourselves for the impending civil war, as they WILL lend us the stone afterall....

Any bets on how the Scots will react???????

Big Dummy - lol

roper
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_Scotland%27s_oil ]Wiki[/url]

It disputed by some but few would think that anything other than Scotland claim to the majority of the oil fields would be upheld in international law

[url= http://www.un.org/Depts/los/LEGISLATIONANDTREATIES/PDFFILES/GBR_1968_Order892.pdf ]Legal stuff[/url]

[img] [/img]

enfit - but which stone 🙂

On the Sottish issue all I'd like is an end to the Westlothian question ie Scotish MPs voting on bills and policy that have been devolved to the Scotish parliment and an end to the Barnet formula, which was originally set up to provide equal distribution of government funds throughout the UK based on the populations in each area and not the unequal system it has become due to population changes.

The office of national statistics does show that the GVA is highest in Inner London, the South East of England and North East Scotland.

BUT to get back on topic, a significant proportion of the population voted BNP and what has to be ascertained is why and how can their concerns be addressed or their ignorance / prejudice be changed.

Spongebob - its simple - the oil belongs to scotland in law. The actual sudsidy goers from England to scotland once yuou look at the toatl figures

As for the other stuff - do you realise that the Barnet formula actually means scotland share of the UK cake falls each year?

As for the things that are better here such as tuition fees - a lot of that is simply because the Scottish parliament has decided thats its priorities.

Having disproportionately high public spending and your own parliament in Scotland means the English are disadvantaged.

Correct

I struggle to understand how can any fair minded person can argue that this is a good thing for the United Kingdom!

With the we (the jocks) own everything, and you sassenach bastards have stolen it all business, I get the oil argument, but how about the costs bit? All the figures I've ever seen conveniently forget Scotlands share of the National debt, and payment for the armed forces and stuff like that.

Don't they still owe us after we bailed them out when they went bust trying to establish a colony in South America?

Technically, we own your arses.

G - Scotland would have to take its share of the national debt - and the last year has made the financial case much poorer.

Payment for the armed forces - Scotland would have its own army. trident would have to be removed from Scottish waters. Assets would be divided on a pro rata basis.

One of the aspects of the SNPs independence position is that scotlands army would be non nuclear and be based upon defense of the landmass only - a bit like Germany

Oi tree -stop cluttering up the debate with irrelevancies 🙂

and you sassenach bastards have stolen it all

The "S" word is now considered as bad as the "N" word which means you Scots canee use it anymore. If you're English on the other hand you're allowed to say "My Sassenach" and "wosup Sassenach" and also "whats happenin Sassenach"

Scotland would have its own army

When Scotland gets it's independence, can the North east join you?

Its my word and I'll use it when and how I like!

I understand the split up, but it doesn't seem to me that the costings stack up. Overall I don't think the oil revenue works, it is the only thing that makes a difference between net profit and net loss, the revenue is falling, costs are rising and the fiscal demands are far from clear in an independant Scotland.

Besides, with the army thing, do you reckon we'll be allowed to keep a momento, like the Ghurkas.... perhaps the Black Watch or something??

We'll still be able to raise regiments from Scotland if we promise them English citizenship after 10 years service. There won't be enough fighting in the new model scottish army for their taste. 😉

When Scotland gets it's independence, can the North east join you

Crikey, you'll need all the oil in Saudi to pay for that health service time bomb.

[img] [/img]

Scotland may only receive a minority share in oil revenues, but then, it only paid a minority share in setting the oil industry up. You can't have it both ways.

In any case, it's going to run out before too long so the argument is academic.

BUT to get back on topic, a significant proportion of the population voted BNP and what has to be ascertained is why and how can their concerns be addressed or their ignorance / prejudice be changed

Well for starters, an English assembly would create a forum for them to voice their concerns! But immigration is not my main concern.

Many people may well be ignorant and prejudiced, but a lot of normal people feel disenfranchised by the mainstream parties. They feel ignored, neglected whilst every other minority group's interests are met before their own. Are you not able to understand their sense of injustice? This is all due to the failings of the main political parties, to deal with a growing issue of unchecked immigration. Extreme right wing people are cashing in on the situation. I don't believe that opposition to unchecked immigration has to be a far right wing issue. Jack Straw welcomed Eastern Europeans "with open arms" when the rest of Western Europe delayed opening their borders for 3 years. So are France and Germany far right wing? Of course they aren't! They were preparing to protect the interests of their own existing population. Making sure they could manage the situatuion. I reckon Straw was just looking for a bunch of extra taxpayers and who would produce a generation of workers who'll pay to prop up our failing public pension system. But there was no consideration for the impact these people would have on public services. No guarantee that they would contribute, or remain here. There was no measurement of the numbers entering the country. Councils were bound by law (probably foisted on them by Brussels) to accomodate these incomers, but at our expense. No regard for the impact it would have on low earning housholds. It's been a fiasco! We have higher public spending in deprived areas as a result. A lot of low paid British workers (of all ethnic origins) have found they have been undercut by cheap labour - a good few now claim benefits because of this. So I am not in the least bit surprised that the BNP have gained ground.

What we need is for the main political parties to devise a strategies to make the situation fairer for those who have lived here all their lives, whatever their ethnic origin. That's not racist, it's doing right by the people who are worst affected by these sudden changes. The main parties are terrified of the stigma of being branded facists or racists if they so much as utter a word on the subject. The matter is complex and needs addressing, but the "PC do-gooders" are stifling balanced free speech once again.

I don't know why I am bothering with this, we don't have the power in the UK to do anything about this anyway. The problem is down to EU directives produced in Brussels.

I think the great "ideal" of a unified Europe is flawed - it isn't going to work because the people of Europe didn't get a choice in the matter. It was undemocratically forced on us bit by bit, which is an outrage!

IMHO We should have EU trade agreements, but not much else. Looking at the 57% that didn't vote and UKIP winning more votes than the Labour party, indicates to me that there are a lot more people who share my views. We need that referendum which both main parties kept promisisng us!

a lot of normal people feel disenfranchised by the mainstream parties.

So why did most of em vote for Camerons lot then?

Two words to the Scotchish financial independentists "Darien" and "scheme" 😆

a lot of normal people feel disenfranchised by the mainstream parties.

So why did most of em vote for Camerons lot then?

You are overlooking the fact that most people in Europe didn't vote at all! That speaks volumes about what people think on the matter.

[i]This is all due to the failings of the main political parties, to deal with a growing issue of unchecked immigration.[/i]

We don't have unchecked immigration in this country. It's actually gone down significantly over the last few years. Currently something like 25,000 people apply for UK residency annually. At the peak in 2002 84,000 applied. At least a third of those are at least degree educated and with professional qualifications. The UK takes something like 3% of [u]all[/u] asylum seekers, most end up in third world countries with little of no infrastructure to deal with it.

for the same reason they voted Conservative in the loacal elections, to get Labour out of office!

If you cast your mind back to 1996. you'll remeember that Tony Blair was hugely popular, and this resulted in Labour's subsequent success just as much as disenchantment with the Major government. The contrast with today is stark - people are deserting labour in droves but the Tories are not benefitting hugely. It's a sign of how fed up people are with politics.

This is all due to the failings of the main political parties, to deal with a growing issue of unchecked immigration.

As Nickc says - this is a myth peddled by the right wing press.

We don't have unchecked immigration in this country

😕

[i]people are deserting labour in droves but the Tories are not benefitting hugely[/i]

Apart from increasing the number of county councils under their control, to the extent of pushing the LibDems out of the Southwest, and denying Labour control of any councils, and increasing their share of the European vote to the extent of again Labour having no representation in the south west, and increasing their Welsh vote by 20% yeah, I can see that apart from all that, they're doing terribly...

enfht, these aren't my figures, go do some checking. As TJ suggests most folk have a grossly overinflated idea of how many people are coming to this country.

Either you guys must live in a shed on the moors or every recent immigrant has moved to where I live. nickc I'd double check your sources my friend. Or maybe tell me how we've had "checked" immigration?

Enfit - its the truth my friend - we have relatively low immigration. How have we checked it - successivly more restrictive immigration laws and policies

Depends what you're measuring. People with the right to come here, (from EU member countries or former Colonies, or commonwealth) or people claiming asylum...

utter bollox TJ.

"I can see that apart from all that, they're doing terribly... "

In the EU election, the tories increased their overall vote by 1%. Whoop de doo.

i have a feeling nickc is talking about non-eu immigrants whereas enfht is talking about within eu immigration - the latter which many people seem to have a problem with. I live in London - without immigration this place would not run at all (good I hear you cry :-))

No shame here-voted Lib dems locally and Conservative nationally.

whippersnapper - Member
I live in London - without immigration this place would not run at all

I have a slight concern here. All of the buses heading back to the Polish border appear to be full. Who, I ask you, is going to replace all the lovely Polish ladies behind London's bars? Please not the Australians again! All their endless whining, "If I was back home....".

And also, will this mean that Sainsbury's will stop selling Tyskie? I should damned well hope not.

I prefer Okocim myself - either going is bad.

Yes enfht. People do have selective awareness! The fact is that governments don't even know the true figures. The Labour government grossly undestimated the numbers and tried to mislead us on the subject.

nickc - Member

people are deserting labour in droves but the Tories are not benefitting hugely

Apart from increasing the number of county councils under their control, to the extent of pushing the LibDems out of the Southwest, and denying Labour control of any councils, and increasing their share of the European vote to the extent of again Labour having no representation in the south west, and increasing their Welsh vote by 20% yeah, I can see that apart from all that, they're doing terribly...

Facts well presented nickc!

I watched the interviews of a few Labour politicians after Cameron annihilated Brown last week at PMQs. Amazingly, the Labour politicians were claiming Brown was victorious over Cameron's "own goal"! What own goal?? I witnessed a similar exhibition of a Labour MP's complete denial about Labour's Euro election results v UKIP's performance on BBC TV today. I don't read right wing newspapers. I don't need to read a paper to see what a flock of delusional lost sheep the Labour party has become! It wasn't always that way however. I did hope Blair would rectify some of the wrongs of the last Conservative administration, but after 12 years, Labour have totally blown it!! Look at the monumental public debt for instance! The issues are considerable and too numerous to list.

"IMHO We should have EU trade agreements, but not much else"

It's not enough. A lot of what technology industry exists is closely bound to EU funding. Currently, the bulk of UK Space jobs, including mine, depend on geo-return into European Space Agency finances. Actually, we would prefer if a UK government had the balls to create a UK Space Agency and directly fund the UK industry with us having the option to opt into ESA programmes - just like Germany, Spain, France, Italy etc.

[Snaps fingers] But that's not going to happen. So, given the status quo, I'd be in favour of better, no necessarily more, integration.

BTW if you've every spent time working/living with continentals, you'll find that mostly, they are just like us. It's not them/us that's the problem IMO, it's the broken political institutions that are prevent real integration. But you have to get consent to break the machine up to create a new one and this is difficult.

On the subject of UKIP, I don't agree with the politics but I think they are legit. BNP on the other hand seem very dangerous to me.

On the subject of UKIP, I don't agree with the politics but I think they are legit. BNP on the other hand seem very dangerous to me.

I don't support BNP but I repsect their right to exist and express an opinion. I support free speech!

Actually, we would prefer if a UK government had the balls to create a UK Space Agency and directly fund the UK industry with us having the option to opt into ESA programmes - just like Germany, Spain, France, Italy etc.

Perhaps UKIP would be the party with "the balls" to do this.

I don't support BNP but I repsect their right to exist and express an opinion. I support free speech!

Not a pop at spongebob, but it is a problem that everyone seems to know their rights but few seem to understand their responsibilities.

Actually, we would prefer if a UK government had the balls to create a UK Space Agency and directly fund the UK industry with us having the option to opt into ESA programmes - just like Germany, Spain, France, Italy etc.

My father was a natural working-class Conservative, and while not at all racist, did not agree with unchecked immigration. He made the mistake of going to a [b]National Front[/b] rally once and got roped into voting for them.

My mum was furious and it wasn't long before a student through a brick through our front window. To be fair, if he were alive today he would probably vote UKIP as it's much closer to his views (as I remember them).

Personally I feel that with BNP are direct descendant of the NF and that there is an [b]underlying racism[/b] that is more than just media hype. They say they are not racist, but I don't believe them. For me, their existence as a legitimate party contributes to legitimisation of racial intolerance and there are reasonable laws against that. I hope the authorities are keeping a close eye on their activities.

Please lets not forget the last centuries history lessons regarding "nationalist" political parties eh?

i moved to germany partly due to the influx of eastern 'peans working for 1/3 of my normal wage.

things were already bad/going bad before the finance crisis.

the money that many EE's earnt was sent back to their home country. i do not blame them for coming over and jumping at the opportunity to earn 2-3 times in a week what would usually take one month to earn back home.
it is the same as th 'auf wiedersehen, pet' types back in the 90's.

i blame the governments slack handling of the situation.

So you have done exactly what you accuse others of. And Germany has more immigrants than the UK

yup. except i'm living here full-time with no intention of returning to the uk.