[Closed] Selling home-made electrical stuff on facebook - is that ok?

No idea what the answer is but if it's yes and they aren't horrendously expensive I'll have one!

I would get things PAT tested if selling on.

I'd be very wary of selling that without an earth and without any testing. The trouble is he won't even know what he should be worrying about and what safety measures to take. I'd be tempted to look for a 5v Led light fitting and run the whole thing from a USB supply. If that is tricky then a 12v light and plug in power supply would be easier to source.

I’ll buy one

Not sure about the answer, but could he sell it without the electrical fittings perhaps, with a recommendation about where to buy them from?

Actually, why does he have to use that cable? The fitting from a normal lamp and a standard cable should work shouldn't they?

"its not a problem as long as bare cable isnt touching any metal parts" = that's the whole point of an earth, so that the user is protected against accidental touching.
There is no way he should be making that without the metal parts being earthed; if he doesn't want to use a three-core flex, then as suggested above, make it 12V with an LED bulb.

Check this out linky

It seems at the very least it needs to pat tested, towards the bottom of the page there is a paragraph on upcycling. Which says that you have made a new product, it will need a CE mark, or now a BS equivalent.

Just earth it? Safer.

If he's making electrical goods and isn't a competent person, (i.e. asking someone about what flex to use) he really shouldn't be selling to the public, particularly without indemnity insurance or testing. Electricity, metal body, no earth and 40%+ alcohol? What could go wrong? Is the hose he's using to dispense the alcohol food safe (yes, the irony), will it perish and leak onto the wiring?

Actually, why does he have to use that cable? The fitting from a normal lamp and a standard cable should work shouldn’t they?

its for the looks, it goes with the style of the lamp i think.

Just earth it? Safer.

I would get things PAT tested if selling on.

would that be either/or? if earthed would it not need PAT testing and vice versa?

Check this out linky

thanks, ive passed all this info on, in fact ive sent him a link to this thread.

Not a chance, unless he puts in lots of work getting them CE marked.

The potential liability would keep me awake forever.

Liquid + electric + lack of knowledge...

...what could possibly go wrong!! 🤣🤣☠️☠️

That looks fantastic but sounds dodgy as a dodgy thing.

From memory it must either be earthed or double insulated. No way would I be selling that otherwise, does he want to be responsible for electrocution or house fire? Best bet as above is to run it off a low voltage source.

As I say though, it looks fantastic and if he can make it safe I'd be interested.

As most of the above say, no!
That light fitting is a Class 1 item, so should have a good earth to it.
Trading Standards would prosecute (if they had resources) if it was brought to their attention.
If there was a good earth (use 3 core cable), then it may be safe. But even then, it really isnt worth the bother in producing it, as it needs to be certified as safe. Most Companies do that in-house, but they know the relevant standards.
If questioned, you would fall at the first hurdle, as you don't know if it meets product standards, and it hasnt been tested to those standards.
But, saying that, there are loads of similar items on ebay/FB now, so get a good earth on it, and it'll be a lot better.

I've made quite a few lights over the years that I'd sell at galleries and exhibitions.

I would always get them Pat tested at a minimum. I would also seek some advice from an expert about earthing etc.

Some I would use Ikea table lamps, re-jig the electrics to take braided cord and make wooden bases.

I still got them Pat tested though despite using existing fittings.

Really cool lamp by the way. Talented lad 👍

I would get things PAT tested if selling on.

Well, with no earth it'll pass the test so that's not necessarily a practical thing.

I think it looks fantastic but agree with the low voltage recommendations of others.

Check out the LED strings with ultra fine wiring. They run off 4.5v (3xAAs) but can be easily adapted to 5V USB power. Take the light bulb, strip out the inside and stuff full of the LED string. I reckon it might look quite cool, like a bulb full of fireflies.

Excess string can be left inside the pipework.

Part of me is thinking "Elvis Dambusters Tutenkhamun memorial clock" but I very much like the style.

These are similar to the ones I was thinking of:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Battery-Powered-Waterproof-Bedroom-Decorations/dp/B08D6QQ6XG/

From memory it must either be earthed or double insulated.

sorry, i forgot to mention, the parts he is buying are double insulated. altho theyre from ebay so can they be trusted? and if they are double insulated, does that change anything?

I think the issue comes if you're altering the actual fitting or building it up from parts.
If the parts are all CE marked then you can get hold of the certifications I think and provide that info freely along with the sale.
Pat test too and keep them on file.

It comes down to can he sell them or should he sell them?
I know how much I have to do at work to make things legal to sell.
I wouldn't be taking money from people without knowing exactly what I need to do and being 100% sure it was safe.
Now we're not in the EU you don't need a CE mark to sell in the UK, but you do need a UKCA mark (which will be to the same requirements as CE).

Could you add a disclaimer suggesting strongly that for the lamp to be used it needs to be checked by an electrician ?. At least this way you've covered yourself and left the actual safety aspect to the customer.

Dunno about beverages in malleable iron fittings. I'd at least use stainless is my 2p

I don't think there can be any debate over this. It must be earthed or use a low voltage supply.

Consider the situation where the live conductor becomes disconnected from the terminal and touches the lamp holder - the entire appliance becomes live and may kill the next person to touch it.

It's possible that the lamp holder is plastic and spray painted a metallic colour - well, it STILL needs earthing because if the flex is tugged there is unlikely to be effective strain relief in the design and so your live conductor could touch any metal pipework, and we're back to death.

To the person who keeps saying "just get it PAT tested". Please don't. This test is designed to confirm that something which is safe by design is free from latent faults. This lamp would pass that test because it is intrinsically dangerous but not faulty.

IMHO it's irresponsible to sell it and say "it's your own problem, test it yourself" because you are fully aware of the risks - which can, as several other people have pointed out - be easily mitigated by either using twin and earth flex or changing to a low voltage setup.

Flaperon has it. If there is any possibility at all that the body of the lamp could become live it absolutely must be earthed.

Knowing that it is potentially very dangerous indeed, would you buy a lamp like this?

If you can sort out the safety/covering your arse issues, I'd recommend selling something like that on Etsy or Not On The High Street. Each market has it's own 'vibe' in my opinion. And eBay's vibe is 'cheap Chinese tat'. Whilst Facebook's is 'stolen power tools, or 'cars with 'powered by fairy dust stickers'.

Flaperon +1

A PAT test would be a pointless waste of 50p. It's a test to make sure the appliance works as it was designed to to (you can stick a pat sticker on something after just a visual examination).

If you did the test as class 2 (double insulated) it would obviously pass as there isn't an earth in that test.

Doesn't alter the fact that it's made of metal and should be class 1.

I wouldn't sell it. I'd not give it away without making some changes.

I'm on the shouldn't sell it camp.

But you can get three core braided. As per an original anglepoise

Could you add a disclaimer suggesting strongly that for the lamp to be used it needs to be checked by an electrician ?. At least this way you’ve covered yourself and left the actual safety aspect to the customer.

Erm....

A 'DO NOT EAT' sticker should suffice.

What does his business insurer say about them? He would be crazy to risk the roof over his head and shirt on his back if he doesn't have insurance.

That product should meet electrical safety standards and food safety standards.

Is it double insulated?
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/5.8.1.htm

Agree with the above - a PAT is pointless. The design of the lamp (although very good) is inherently dangerous. Basic rule; metal case = needs to be earthed.

What does his business insurer say about them?

he hasnt got insurance, this is why im asking really, he wants to do the right thing. this started out as a simple gift to us, but hes shown some talent for this, so is thinking about making a few quid, and wants to ensure hes covering safety and whether he needs insurance.

But you can get three core braided.

im sure he'll be interested to hear this.

Is it double insulated?
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/5.8.1.htm/blockquote >

as i mentioned before, the parts hes buying say theyre double insulated. but.....its ebay, can he trust them?

thanks

 

“Elvis Dambusters Tutenkhamun memorial clock”

it looks like a robot that shoots booze. it’s nothing like as good at the “Elvis Dambusters Tutenkhamun memorial clock”.

i think selling to the public would require testing and meeting standards.

however, if he’s doing it for fun and experience this could be a fun experience from which he could learn. he wouldn’t have to cost his time into the price if it were just for fun.

i’ve just scrolled up to se if it was son or daughter and discovered that it’s a son in law. he may not have the time.

I have no ideas about the regulations regarding the sale of items like this.

However, to earth the item three core flex is readily available from what seems to be a reputable UK supplier, in a range of colours/ finishes etc.

https://www.lampspares.co.uk/braided-flex-cables/

I don’t think there can be any debate over this. It must be earthed or use a low voltage supply.

This.

Mains power + conductive surfaces = earth. That's literally what the earth wire is for. The likelihood of the surface ever becoming live is irrelevant.

PAT is a nonsense here. PAT will tell you a) that it's not already ****ed and b) that it doesn't have bare wires hanging out. Any moron could undertake PAT so long as they aren't blind.

... it might look nice, but there's a reason we stopped using shit cable like that about a hundred years ago.

An all Metal Anglepoise and double insulated components is a class 2 appliance and requires no ground. (got one here with CE marking)

A wooden bedside lamp with a brass lamp holder is a class 1 appliance and requires a ground.

PAT testing is not relevant for the sale of goods and I suspect the quantity he produces makes certification not viable. If you worried about it being unsafe the quality is not good enough for sale. If there is no worry then I reckon you are into covering yourself under consumer protection act. It must be possible as artists and small scale makers do it all the time with no need for CE markings.

I think it requires further investigation rather than outright dismissal.

Yea that needs to be earthed. If it were me I'd take back the ones already sold and modify them too, that's an electrocution waiting to happen.

Theres a shop in Hebden Bridge that sells similar stuff - one of the first ones on the left if you come in from Tod.

Personally I hate the stuff - malleable iron fittings are crap for pipework - would rather have welded flange {s****} and not something I want to see at home after seeing them at work all day.

I'd imagine there will be a relevant British Standard that would need to be followed for table lamps

So I'd make sure anything he makes to sell confirms to the correct BS. Sure that would be something he would be asked about in a court of law if one if his lamps caused someone to be electrocuted

As above there will be a standard somewhere and a kite mark to go with it.

We wanted a local metal fabricator to make some benches for round the pumptrack but we're told that without a kite mark any injuries would come back to us.

While we might all mock the Elvis Dambusters Tutenkhamun memorial clock, were you aware that stuff like that is an actual thing?

£140 this was.

After a quick search it would seem other lamps state that they conform to 3 EU directives, the low voltage, RoSH and EMC.
In addition, there are other requirements you would need to comply with, such as providing a user guide (containing safety info) and a technical construction file.
The above is for CE marking. This is in the process of changing in the UK to UKCA, but this year is a bit of a transition, but should be the same next year, with a few name changes.
The low voltage directive will point you in the direction of which standards you need to comply with, which will give you the details on wiring, safety etc.
Sorry if all this is a pain, but it's why things are now a bit safer.

he hasnt got insurance, this is why im asking really, he wants to do the right thing.. wants to ensure hes covering safety and whether he needs insurance.

Bit surprised everyone's fixated on just the wiring and ignoring this bit. The answer's yes. That's the same whether the goods and services being offered for sale are shonky electricals or fully certified safe things, but in the latter case cover will a lot easier to get.

When he tries to get cover selling homemade electrical goods made by someone with no qualifications I suspect the other acceptability questions will answer themselves.

While we might all mock the Elvis Dambusters Tutenkhamun memorial clock, were you aware that stuff like that is an actual thing?

Does it play the Dambuster’s theme on the hour and fire out mini bouncing bombs every morning? Otherwise I’m out 🤣

As for the bits of it being 'Double Insulated', then, I'm presuming you mean the lampholder. The rest of it isnt double insulated, unless you have non conducting sleeving from where the cable enters and joins to the lampholder. Cables cannot be 'double insulated', there is no such thing available. There is reinforced and double sheathed cable, but it is not, and cannot, be described as double insulated.
As for PAT 'testing', then yes, it should be done, as each one will fail. There will be no makers details showing it is double insulated, so it will therefore be a Class 1 item, so will need to be earthed. Without an earth cable, it is an instant fail.

I'd be careful if he's selling these as a business for profit. The lamps could be classed as a Decorative Desk Lamp for a Home Office for example, then they could be deemed to be work equipment.

Then Section 6 of The Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 applies:

Manufacturers’, Suppliers’ and Designers’ Duties

Manufacturers, suppliers, importers and designers must ensure that any articles or substances provided for use at work are safe and without risks to health, as outlined in s.6. This includes:

testing
research
examination of the products
providing relevant safety information including revisions
when the product is intended for use at work.

There is case law around this after a company supply children's play beds were prosecuted for selling furniture with an unsafe design. They were prosecuted under Section 3 (1) HSAWA1974 - It shall be the duty of every employer to conduct his undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that persons not in his employment who may be affected thereby are not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety. Section 6 was also cited as the beds didn't meet safety standards for the sizes of openings and a child got their head stuck and was aspixhiated.

https://northyorkshire.police.uk/news/playtime-beds-boss-sent-to-prison-for-more-than-three-years/