[Closed] Scottish independence- where do you stand?

Mol, but as noted before not the Shetlands!!! (if wee eck is to be believed)

/pedant mode on

There is no Shetlands, just Shetland

/pedant mode off

+1 Wot Shackleton just said.

The best hope I can see is a strong Yes minority that ensures we stay in the union but raises the issue of Devo Max again.

molgrips - Member 
Think that's just the variation of life, different people different place, different needs, just so happens some people think that it would better as a smaller single unit
My point is that the current UK has lots of regions with different needs. The needs vary according to socio economic profile, not ethnicity.

Some things are better on a larger scale, some on a smaller scale. That's why we all need devo max, and that's why I'd vote no, if I could.

Oh and you know damn well you'd just be moaning about bias towards the Central belt instead of Westminster. The rich folk in Edinburgh aren't much closer to Highland sheep farmers than the ones in London. Only similarity is that they are Scottish. Which goes back to the jingoism argument.

Aye somethings are done better under another scale, but tbh, these larger scale things in the future need to be european(look at the chinese engineering projects too big for britain to match), so in europe, I'd rather scotland had an independent voice. Plus Scotland will work with England in loads of capacities post indepedence, what are England going to do, go in a huff and not come out to play? Never speak to us again?

Re bias towards the Central Belt, aye that may happen, Central belt will be much more answerable than westminster ever will be. Plus the Central Belt isn't in a vaccum in Scotland, it's where the vast majority live, but it also has connections that westminster doesn't have, so it'd be a much more immediate relationship with the other parts of Scotland, so aye possible, but the other parts of scotland gain access to a more controllable government, that's what it's also about, the level of interactivity and response of government.

GrahamS - Member
The alternative, for me, is Devo Max.
And since that isn't being offered, the status quo.

Basically I think we're stronger standing together (and I'm pro-european for much the same reason).
But that doesn't mean we can't self-govern.

I think that's mostly my viewpoint too. More can be achieved when working together, though a sort-of federal UK where things that can be handled locally are devolved locally would be my vague and woolly preference.

I have English parents but was born in Scotland and have lived all my life here. I'll be voting no. It would not be unfair to say that my encounters with people who will never consider me remotely Scottish have coloured my opinions in this debate.

For me the argument about Westminster rule rings very true, but is an argument for increased powers for the Scottish government (Devo Max), not a complete dissolution of the union.

Or an argument for a proper voting system, one that actually represents the populus, rather than the one we have now the clearly doesn't. Rather than splitting up the union we should should be trying to sort this place out.

For the record I neither hate the scots or want the uk to break up, but i really am bored with the politics of this country. I am 37 and have voted in every election I could but my vote has always been pointless because of where I live. People are scared of it but we need PR. IMO of course.

Edit: apologies for going slightly off topic!!

I think that's mostly my viewpoint too. More can be achieved when working together, though a sort-of federal UK where things that can be handled locally are devolved locally would be my vague and woolly preference.

Yep. The hill farmers of Scotland, Wales, NI, Yorkshire, Devon all need representing. The post-industrial areas of Clydeside, Tyneside, the Valleys all need representing. The rich suburbs of London, Edinburgh and.. er.. Cardiff.. all need representing too.

I'd rather Scotland stayed with us and helped provide a better UK than simply quit and leave us to the Westminster Wolves tbh. We need PR, we need social policies, and if the Scots leave we'll lose a lot of allies!

Scottish independence- where do you stand?

The worrying thing for Scotland is what happens when the North Sea oil dries up? What then? Will they rely on selling kilts to American tourists? Perhaps whiskey to the Chinese? Can they convince people the world over to drink Irn Bru rather than Coke Cola? Will the proclaimers make a worldwide comeback?

Seriously though it seems like the SNP have massively underestimated the amount of work, money and upheaval it will take to create an independant Scotland. It's likely that if the YES vote prevails then the people of Scotland will be dealing with turmoil, uncertainty and disruption for the next couple of decades. It may perhaps be worth it in the very long term, but short to medium term I can see it being absolute mayhem. Not really the secure, stable base that Alex Salmond needs to create the solid growth in the Scottish economy that his manifesto is based on.

Scotland, is it really worth cutting off your nose despite your face?

It'd be interesting to see an independent analysis of the effects of Scotland's ageing population on all this.

Something the UK will face regardless of the yes/no vote. But is this believably taken into account with the Yes camp predictions?

While I'm thinking about it, does anyone have any thoughts on whether EU country leaderships might cause problems for Scotland, in order to deter separatist movements within their own borders?

Not suggesting that is the case. But their are a few that might have the motive.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/22/europe-separatist-movements

Saw this and thought it might be relevant for those wanting a more considered response to Wee Ecks white paper.

[img] [/img]

http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/we-check-the-snps-maths

All of the points above appear to be finding fault based on post-independence arrangements. The table clearly states that it is based on current constitutional arrangements.

F for reading comprehension.

The worrying thing for Scotland is what happens when the North Sea oil dries up? What then? Will they rely on selling kilts to American tourists? Perhaps whiskey to the Chinese? Can they convince people the world over to drink Irn Bru rather than Coke Cola? Will the proclaimers make a worldwide comeback?

Seriously though it seems like the SNP have massively underestimated the amount of work, money and upheaval it will take to create an independant Scotland. It's likely that if the YES vote prevails then the people of Scotland will be dealing with turmoil, uncertainty and disruption for the next couple of decades. It may perhaps be worth it in the very long term, but short to medium term I can see it being absolute mayhem. Not really the secure, stable base that Alex Salmond needs to create the solid growth in the Scottish economy that his manifesto is based on.

Scotland, is it really worth cutting off your nose despite your face?

Yeah I'm pretty much with you on this. Investment in decommissioning is already happening but even that will be relatively short term and it is clear the renewables industry will never be what they claimed it would be. I just get the impression the people driving independence are doing it for their own satisfaction at the cost of the long term future of the country, and yet to see anything of substance to prove otherwise. Seems a bit of a shame really.

The problem is theres so many unanswered questions and points. Mostly caused by the Westminster governments refusal to even contemplate entering into any sort of debate about the make up of a post-independence British Isles.. prob because they know that if they actually start taking the prospect seriously other folk might do the same. Plus uncertainty works in their favour..
At the end of the day, we're all adults, and it would be in everyone's interest (if there was a yes vote) if we could sort shit like this out would it not? And that goes for RUK and The EU.

If they wanna go, go. But I want to take my holidays there still.

Serious question on the EU. Does any other county of relative size to an independent Scotland have the same opt outs, veto's or rebates being demanded by the SNP?
Would EU member states be happy for Scotland to continue to receive the UK rebate from CAP due to the UK's relatively low agricultural sector in the 80's, whilst receiving greater subsidies due to Scotlands greater farming sector going forward? Sounds like it should be one or the other.
Salmond today states that we will be welcomed with open arms due to an abundance of fish and wind. I do think most member states would be happy enough with, however may not tempt the veto wielding Spanish, who really should know their place.
To put it mildly, as much as I find our Dear Leader disagreeable, I do admire his gallus.

I think they actually want an increase on CAP

I honestly doubt that Spain would use the veto as they want to continue to fish in (what would be) Scottish waters. If Scotland was not ableto get membership of the EU there would probably be quite a lot of uncontrolled fishing in Scottish waters which would quickly be overfished thus leaving everyone including Spanish fishermen worse off than they were when they started. Just my opinion.

Fair enough gordimhor, however Spain has to weigh up the requirement of it's fishermen against other independence politics closer to home. We could be used as an example by Spain to show Catalunya.

rebel12 - Member

The worrying thing for Scotland is what happens when the North Sea oil dries up? What then?

Then we will no longer have the thing that makes us considerably more prosperous than the uk, and will only be roughly as prosperous. O noes.

I just get the impression the people driving independence are doing it for their own satisfaction

Yes.. I get the impression that the die-hard nats want their FREEEEDDOOOOOOMMM and are a) massaging the figures to justify it and b) leveraging current electoral dissatisfaction to get other people on board.

Seems like most Yes voters are focusing on point b.

[quote=athgray ]Fair enough gordimhor, however Spain has to weigh up the requirement of it's fishermen against other independence politics closer to home. We could be used as an example by Spain to show Catalunya.
The most interesting thing about the Spanish PMs statement last night is what he [i]didn't[/i] say. He gave his (unqualified) opinion on the Scottish membership process. That goes into the pile of other unqualified assessments on both sides of the argument (the Spanish Foreign Minister has previously said that the Scottish and Catalan cases are not similar). What he [i]could have[/i] said is that Spain would veto any Scottish membership application - i.e. something he has the power to do.

Meanwhile, I'm surprised that David Cameron and the No campaign haven't made more of an issue of the circumstances that might apply if iScotland was in the EU and rUK left. I reckon that would introduce a lot of border/currency issues - certainly more than would be the case if both remained members of the EU. Of course, in order to increase the effectiveness of that scare story, he'd have to put it forward as a genuine probability - and that's not something he can do and keep the Tory party together.

As has already been pointed out, only the EU Commissioners can give a definitive answer on Scotlands membership and they will only give that answer in response to a direct question from the UK Government. What possible reason could the UK Govt have for not seeking the answer to that question?

I agree scotroutes that Scotland in the EU and UK outside would be bad for both. Although the yes camp say Scotland does not decide elections due to people voting differently. I feel that as the majority of Scotland would vote for the EU, we could make a difference in any in/out referendum. That is a stage down the line. We could have another referendum if UK in the EU goes pear shaped.

In the meantime if UK style membership described by Salmond is what we want, then the logical way of getting exactly that is to vote no next year.

[quote=athgray ]I agree scotroutes that Scotland in the EU and UK outside would be bad for both. Although the yes camp say Scotland does not decide elections due to people voting differently. I feel that as the majority of Scotland would vote for the EU, we could make a difference in any in/out referendum. Ah - I hadn't thought about that one. I guess it [i]could[/i] make a difference if the voting was marginal

I guess there's also a risk that any rUK/EU negotiations in the future (such as envisaged by DC) might be less favourable for the rUK once Scotland is independent? With a smaller constituency would rUK get less voting power/delegates etc?

In the meantime if [b]UK style membership[/b] described by Salmond is what we want, then the logical way of getting exactly that is to vote no next year.

molgrips - Member
Yes.. I get the impression that the die-hard nats want their FREEEEDDOOOOOOMMM...

Yup, it will be nice to live as a citizen in a democracy rather than as a subject in a country with a "ruling class" (as admitted by one senior Tory the other day).

Nought wrong with freedom, plenty wrong with the alternative.

I didn't say freedom, I said FREEEEDDOOOOOOMMM!

It's different.

The point I am trying to make is the SNP seek to join institutions we are already members of mainly on terms we pretty much have, i,e currency/Europe/Nato (I will concede slight difference with regard to nuclear weapons). I would not disagree that rUK/EU conditions should be renegotiated .
Sounds then like Scotland and rUK could be in Europe on less favouable terms."Better Together" I say.

Gotcha. So the EU question is "[i]how bad a deal would iScotland have to get before it's worse than we already have[/i]"? You're back to "re-directed" farming subsidies, less-favourable fishing negotiations etc. I guess these are the big imponderables 😐

English, living in Scotland for 20 years, and I'm a no. The crazy currency proposals and the naive NATO & EU assumptions from the SNP leave them with absolutely no credibility. IMO that haven't done too bad a job running the country, but the independence thing is totally unsustainable.

athgray - Member

In the meantime if UK style membership described by Salmond is what we want, then the logical way of getting exactly that is to vote no next year.

Er, I don't know if you noticed but there's a small matter of the UK anti-EU referendum coming up. If we want to be in the EU, there's less risk to that as an independent scotland.

Course, there's no certainty which way the UK will vote on that, but we know very well that England is more conservative, more right wing, more euroskeptic and more insular than Scotland on such matters, and that the UK very often gets what England wants.

The UK gets what the UK votes for. Why is Scotland different? Plenty of left-wing/socialist/post industrial/rural etc people in the rest of the UK. It's back to ethnic divisions again isn't it?

The only reason any of this exists is because Scottish think of themselves as different, because Scotland used to be a different country.

I look at the UK deal scotroutes which isn't bad although I am no expert. I try to see how thinks affect the UK and not those North of Berwick/Carlisle. May get flamed for saying this, but I am as happy to see Northsea oil help those in Newcastle, Liverpool, Birmingham, and even London, as Edinburgh and Aberdeen. We may all seek to benefit from shale gas deposits across Northern England in future.

I would repeat what I posted when George Galloway was told to go back to England from a Scottish taxi driver. He asked if he did not feel closer ties with a taxi driver in say Doncaster than with the Duke of Buccleuch.

I have a PM I didn't vote for, a First Minister I really don't like, an MP and MSP I didn't elect, and Uk and Holyrood governments I don't support. I don't however feel dissaffected by either. I can tell what I will end up with if I vote No. 🙂

molgrips - Member

The UK gets what the UK votes for. Why is Scotland different? Plenty of left-wing/socialist/post industrial/rural etc people in the rest of the UK. It's back to ethnic divisions again isn't it?

Scotland votes in 1 Tory mp, Wales 8, we got the tory government england and only england voted for. No more complicated than that. I like to think the English voters aren't daft enough to take us out of europe but hey, precedents aren't great.

Scotland votes in 1 Tory mp, Wales 8, we got the tory government england and only england voted for. No more complicated than that.

Just to check (I know I have been a way for a while) but don't you have a Coalition Government made up of Lib Dems and Tories? Wasn't the previous Government Labour which the majority of Scotland did seem to vote for and wasn't the last Prime Minister Scottish?

of course having been out the country for a couple of year I'm only going off memories...

molgrips - Member
The UK gets what the UK votes for. Why is Scotland different? Plenty of left-wing/socialist/post industrial/rural etc people in the rest of the UK. It's back to ethnic divisions again isn't it?

Scotland votes in 1 Tory mp, Wales 8, we got the tory government england and only england voted for. No more complicated than that.

Molgrips I reckon most Scots on all sides of this debate [b]know[/b] Scotland is a country

Scotland votes in 1 Tory mp, Wales 8, we got the tory government england and only england voted for.

You mean apart from the 16% of the Scottish electorate who voted Tory (about the same as the SNP)?

Only 36% of a very low turnout voted Tory in the UK as a whole - not really fair to say that 'England voted for' the Tories.

mikewsmith - Member

Just to check (I know I have been a way for a while) but don't you have a Coalition Government made up of Lib Dems and Tories?

In practice, no, as we have a coalition government that does pretty much exactly what the Tories want to do.

grum - Member

You mean apart from the 16% of the Scottish electorate who voted Tory (about the same as the SNP)?

Yep, exactly- 4th choice in Scotland yet still running the country. That's some mandate to rule isn't it.

But Northwind do you not concede that by default you must have got what you voted when you got 3 terms of a labour government?

You could validly use that argument about the Tories Northwind, however the argument has been used that successive governments have subjugated the will of a nation. Everyone forgets the momentous election in 1997 that brought us 13 years of Scottish born Labour PM's. These Scots tooks us to war in Afghanistan, went into another war in Iraq based on false claims put forward by another Scot. Still didn't stop us voting Labour MP's.
I think middle England Tory voters may have more grievance to suggest Scotland took them into two unpoular wars.

Beat me to it mike.

Yes, of course. Should we be delighted that on a minority of occasions, we get the government we vote for?

[quote=athgray ]I think middle England Tory voters may have more grievance to suggest Scotland took them into two unpoular wars.
If the majority of Labour MPs had been Scots you would have a point.

Yep, exactly- 4th choice in Scotland yet still running the country. That's some mandate to rule isn't it.

Yet again - while I broadly agree with you - suggesting that everyone in England votes Tory and deserves a Tory government is inaccurate and insulting.

There was another Scottish party leader at that time.who described the decision to go to war as 'unpardonable folly' and got pelters for doing so. I wonder what happened to him!

Scotland votes in 1 Tory mp, Wales 8, we got the tory government england and only england voted for.

Should we be delighted that on a minority of occasions, we get the government we vote for?

I live in South Wales. South Wales votes labour mostly. So should South Wales be an independent country? Should every safe labour seat be an independent country because they don't like tories? Of course not but that's how democracy works. You win some, you lose some. There have been Labour governments after all.

What's the difference between Scotland and any other consistently Labour area? Nothing really except for Nationalism and the idea that Scots are different from the rest of us.

So what's the point of national boundaries, really?

[quote=molgrips ]
So what's the point of national boundaries, really?
You're in favour of European, nay, Worldwide political integration then? Let's not have any borders at all? I'm sure in time we'd all learn to speak mandarin.

I did not mean to imply that tory grievance was justified. It was as much an attempted dig at some Tory voters. Perhaps didn't come off well.

It's the difference between 'an area' and a' country. '

Not our dear leader surely gordimhor? You really like him don't you? As his countrymen and women continued to mainly elect Labour war mongering MP's he must have felt badly let down. I now feel we are undeserving of such a great man. Please forgive me. Yes, Yes, the answer is YES!!

There's nothing to stop any of the constituent nations of the UK seeking independence. There's nothing really to stop any group of people from any area campaigning for independence but it's going to be so much harder for areas that do not have the clear borders and higher profile of a country.

Glad to be of assistance athgray

No problem. Not often threads like this reach resolution.

There's nothing to stop any of the constituent nations of the UK seeking independence. There's nothing really to stop any group of people from any area campaigning for independence but it's going to be so much harder for areas that do not have the clear borders and higher profile of a country.

We will start with Northumbria then, I reckon Bamburgh casttle should do as HQ for now.
[img] [/img]

You're in favour of European, nay, Worldwide political integration then?

Different parts of the world have hugely different cultural, social and economic histories. They need to be administered separately because of it. Scotland isn't that different to the rest of the UK in most areas. And yes I've seen the voting map from 2010. But that's not grounds for secession really.

Electoral and constitutional reform would be far better than this. Plus it would also benefit the rest of us poor bastards who don't have oil fields.

Spoke to an English friend who lives near Elgin last night. She told me that she and her friends are firmly in the NO camp - BUT if the pro-independence movement were headed by a decent leader/politician they would be far more likely to vote yes, they don't trust Salmond and suspect he wants to be King of Scotland (maybe a little hyperbole there!)
So, is it Salmond himself who is fuelling the NO vote?

Elgin area == proportionally rather a lot of RAF service personnel, not sure how MOD plans after any independence would affect their jobs or at least postings.

Spoke to an English friend who lives near Elgin last night. She told me that she and her friends are firmly in the NO camp - BUT if the pro-independence movement were headed by a decent leader/politician they would be far more likely to vote yes, they don't trust Salmond and suspect he wants to be King of Scotland (maybe a little hyperbole there!)
So, is it Salmond himself who is fuelling the NO vote?

As far as I can tell, yes. Salmond is fuelling the No vote to a degree. That's just amongst peers btw.

Doubt it's much more that the conservatives fuelling the Yes vote.

So, is it Salmond himself who is fuelling the NO vote?

Yes I've heard this from friends North of the border too. Many don't trust him as it's clear (like many politicians from every party) that he's on some sort of personal power trip, thinly veiled as a campaign for independence.

It seems from this thread and from asking people on several of my work trips to Scotland that generally the people who would vote YES are the disenfranchised, low paid, and those unhappy with their lot. It's easy to blame the English, the current political system or anyone but themselves for this predicament. For them the promise of FREEEDDDOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM! they are being sold by Salmond, and a more insular, inward looking Scotland, is very appealing - in much the same way as a more insular, inward looking UK is appealing for the Sun reading ENGERLAAAAAND! ENGERLAAAAND! BNP voters in the UK.

All the Scot's I've spoken to who were successful, well educated, had traveled extensively etc were firmly in the NO camp as they could see the massive up sides of being part of a Union and could see through Alex Salmond's 'smoke and mirrors'.

I'll leave you to judge which group of the above would be the most suitably qualified to fully understand and assess the potential impact of Scotland being fully independent.

So all of the No camp are stupid people with shit jobs? I don't buy that for a second. Indeed, we have had some very articulate contributors on here who disprove that theory.

The most interesting thing about the Spanish PMs statement last night is what he didn't say.

Spain is not the only country with separatist movements in the EU. Eg France has 6 with varying degrees of seriousness, they also have a track record of vetoing EU entry. I've no idea of of their current stance on a iScotland entry. And I suspect they don't want New Caledonia (obviously not EU) getting any more ideas on independence than it already has. Has Belgium made any comments on this matter yet?

So all of the No camp are stupid people with shit jobs? I don't buy that for a second. Indeed, we have had some very articulate contributors on here who disprove that theory.

I didn't say 'all' - I said from those that I've personally met. Plus the most vocal on here seem to be blaming everything bad in Scotland on the English or because they didn't get the government they wanted at every single election.

rebel12 - Member
"So, is it Salmond himself who is fuelling the NO vote?"
Yes I've heard this from friends North of the border too. Many don't trust him as it's clear (like many politicians from every party) that he's on some sort of personal power trip, thinly veiled as a campaign for independence...

Considering that he is democratically elected with a greater proportion of the vote than the PM, the establishment press have done a brilliant job of smearing him as a would be dictator.

The Scottish Pravda (used to be called "The Scotsman") never misses an opportunity to push this angle. How representative it is of its readerships views is demonstrated by its massive decline in sales.

Scottish Westminster MPs are running around in circles desperately looking for life support systems after 2016 when their redundancy happens.

hopefully Yes, so I can go live in whichever country is the one with the best funded health and education systems.

So all of the No camp are stupid people with shit jobs? I don't buy that for a second. Indeed, we have had some very articulate contributors on here who disprove that theory.

Actually, I think surveys have shown that the higher your income, the more you're likely to vote No - too much to lose, and not affected by austerity measures I think.

Would that be the insular inward looking Scotland which wants to be a part of NATO and remain in the EU while having a policy on immigration that's fair and meets the countries needs. ?

Hmm. Disagree with you there rebel12. Voting yes because I feel all parties in westminster no longer represent the best intetests of everyone, and Scotland in particular obviously. The main parties all seem to be chasing the centre right because thats where they'll get a majority. Not out of hatred for the English or for "Freeeeeeedom" but because I'd like a government that seems to act in the interests of our society as a whole,not just specific groups or parts of it.. If I am disenfranchised its for a good reason.
Bit of a sweeping generalisation there which I totally disagree with.

Someone please post up a link to the latest "party leader satisfaction ratings". 🙄

Considering that he is democratically elected with a greater proportion of the vote than the PM, the establishment press have done a brilliant job of smearing him as a would be dictator.

I don't think you can argue that the only reason people don't like Salmond is some kind of media conspiracy against him.

Plus the most vocal on here seem to be blaming everything bad in Scotland on the English

or because they didn't get the government they wanted at every single election.

Why should they not be cross about English voters giving them a govt and policies they dont want? It actually happens its factually correct - though not for every election but certainly for every Tory win.
I think if they never vote tory and often get tory govts then that is a legitimate concern for any democracy /country.

certainly for every Tory win

They didn't win this time though.

I think if they never vote tory and often get tory govts then that is a legitimate concern for any democracy /country.

Why? There are lots of areas of the UK that never vote Tory but get a Tory Government? What is so special about Scotland?

They didn't win this time though.

What is so special about Scotland?

Why did you need to ask why a country is different from an area?

Why? There are lots of areas of the UK that never vote Tory but get a Tory Government? What is so special about Scotland?

Exactly there are lots of people who want the 'Green Party' in government. but the Greens never get in. It's not fair! Should they be throwing their toys out of the pram too perhaps? Maybe best to become independent, have their own island where everyone eats Tofu and lights their own farts to keep warm?

Do you really think that after independence you're going to get the party you vote for at every single election, do you really think that an Edinburgh centric government is going to do what's in the best interest for the Weegie's, the Highlands and Islands or Shetland? Maybe they should all be independent too?

The 1/2 million votes the SNP got may have helped labour a little bit.

Why did you need to ask why a country is different from an area?

I didn't. I asked what is so special about Scotland?

Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and is not a Nation State. Just because they don't like the elected Government it is not a justification for independence.

grum - Member

Yet again - while I broadly agree with you - suggesting that everyone in England votes Tory and deserves a Tory government is inaccurate and insulting.

And I'd be daft to do so, so I didn't.

molgrips - Member

What's the difference between Scotland and any other consistently Labour area?

Is it the "being a different country" thing? To be fair though it's not just that, it's also the "having the resources and the will to do something about it" thing.

Electoral and constitutional reform would be far better than this.

I agree. But since that's not really on the table, and shows no sign of arriving, I'll take what is. My vote in Scotland can effect electoral and constitutional change, my vote at Westminster won't.

Truth is, we have a 2 party system and they're mostly interested in scrapping over which of the 2 gets to be in charge, and thus mostly not too interested in disturbing things. Completely understandable tbh but it's an impressive barrier to change.

Do you really think that after independence you're going to get the party you vote for at every single election,

Again you can debate what it means but it is factually true that the country sometimes gets an English voted govt and it wont after independence it will get a scottish one

Why is this even being debated?

The government of the union is not in itself a reason for independence.

That government of the union not representing the needs/wants of the Scottish electorate is.

Electoral and constitutional reform would be far better than this.

Remind me, what happened the last time electoral reform was on the cards in the UK.

winston_dog - Member

Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and is not a Nation State.

If it is not a nation state, why is it one of the kingdoms in the United Kingdom?

The referendum is to undo the ties to the UK and revert back to local control.

And the great thing is it really doesn't matter what frothing at the mouth naysayers in other countries do, this is up to us in Scotland. We will decide.

I'd like a government that seems to act in the interests of our society as a whole,not just specific groups or parts of it

Me too.

Is it the "being a different country" thing?

What does that mean then? Define country for me.

Remind me, what happened the last time electoral reform was on the cards in the UK.

When was that? I remember the last time constitutional reform was on the cards, that was voted in and was quite successful iirc.

And the great thing is it really doesn't matter what frothing at the mouth naysayers in other countries do, this is up to us in Scotland. We will decide.

It does affect us. You're taking away a large part of my country.