[Closed] Scottish Independence - should the English have a say?

I'd say its as difficult for someone like me, from the north to identify with being 'English' as it is for the Scots.

When I see this ridiculous home counties idea of Englishness portayed in Daily Mail-land, I feel the same connection to it as I do to the indigenous tribesmen of Papua New Guinea

i suspect the opinion polls just now reflect the nations desire to stay as is, because they have no idea what the outcome would be should we "go it alone"

That doesn't stop a fair amount of the population wanting to leave the EU though, does it?

When abroad I'm embarrassed to be labelled as English. End of really.

On slightly different note, a chap with Ghanaian parents joined the company I was working for. We took him out for a welcome drink and he asked "does anyone else of a ethnic minority background work here other than me?"

One of the chaps piped up with "I'm from Aberdeen pal, how much ethnic minority do you want?". Well, it made me smile.

Maybe it's cos most of us just aren't that parochial and insecure that we need to go banging on about how proud we are of our cultural identity?

Or perhaps Scots just don't worry so much about what other people might label them for expressing some pride in their heritage? 😀

I think most of us actually are quite proud to be where we're from. I know I am.

Hmm I wonder how many English folk celebrate St George's Day?

It does seem to have gained a little popularity of late, which is good. But I find it slightly odd that a national day which coincides with the birthday and deathday of Shakespeare still goes largely unmarked, while St Andrew's Day and Burns' night celebrations happen all over the world.

I'd quite happily celebrate a "Union Day" if that helps?

You know. I think we have more in common than we like to admit.

I also think a lot of 'anti-English' sentiment north of the border is misplaced anti-toff sentiment, IME anyway. It's interesting nobody ever talks about anti-Scottish sentiment, as evidenced on this thread [well some of it, I guess some is just trolling] and the comments section of any BBC News article on this subject.

I vote we just cull the arseholes, north and south, and everyone else can just get on with it.

GrahamS - The comment about Mel Gibson was meant to be tongue in cheek! I grew up in a family that celebrated our Scottish cultural heritage quite extensively, so I'm very aware that our sense of identity is a lot deeper and broader than 'Braveheart' 😀

When abroad I'm embarrassed to be labelled as English. End of really.

Weird, I'm quite happy to be labelled as English.

On that basis, I don't really see why UK taxpayers' money should be wasted on what is ultimately quite a trivial matter for the whole of the UK.

Haven't read the whole thread, but that comment for me captures exactly the kind of attitude that makes about a third of scots want independance and another third want independence lite/devolution max.

Even if we accept that this is a trivial matter for the uk (which it is absolutely not - why do all the big uk parties oppose it? Because they know exactly what Scotland contributes to the UK - they're not just trying to keep the family together), it's a bloody huge thing for us folk in Scotland.

I did read that a sculptor donated a statue of Mel Gilson as William Wallace to the Wallace monument in Stirling that wound up being consistently vandalized.

Was it because the statue itself was "a lump of crap" as one local put it, or a protest against the hammy portrayal of Wallace? I'd like to think it was the latter...

Interesting stuff - I just had a quick google of "English Heritage" to see what it would reveal (besides castles and stately homes) and came across this...

[img] [/img]

I assume it's okay to post it because it's art BTW

Is the subject meant to be holding in a fart?

*loves it when STWers get nationalism-based identity crises*

GrahamS - The comment about Mel Gibson was meant to be tongue in cheek!

Don't worry - it was taken as such. 🙂 But it does seem to be a recurring straw man used to dismiss Scottish national pride or independence.

I also think a lot of 'anti-English' sentiment north of the border is misplaced anti-toff sentiment, IME anyway.

Most (sensible) Scots have nothing against the English people, just English rule - which I guess tends to be the "toffs".

I think a lot of "anti-English sentiment" these days is typically just banter that gets taken a bit too far.

It's interesting nobody ever talks about anti-Scottish sentiment

I've often heard English folk complain that the Scots are holding a grudge. Yet the same people will happily laugh at jokes about "the French" - a "grudge" that dates back to 1337 odd.

The Union will not survive. A federation might, but first England needs its own seperate parliament.

The move for independence is deep seated and has been growing for many generations. The media are busy rigging all sorts of polls (eg the latest) but the results of the last election showed completely the contrary.

Labour has lost a lot of ground in Scotland because it is seen now as anti-Scotland. They even campaign with the English rose on their posters and signs - that's stupid IMO. The current Labour leader seems to be recognising this, so we may see Labour get more votes next time.

Many of the people I know who vote for the SNP do so because they regard the biggest issue facing Scotland as independence. Once independence comes they would polarise back into their natural left/right/middle political leanings and the SNP will become a small party.

Elfinsafety - Member
Maybe it's cos most of us just aren't that parochial and insecure that we need to go banging on about how proud we are of our cultural identity? And maybe it's because actually, we're really quite culturally diverse, and there is more of a sense of 'regional' identity than a 'national' one. I spose we aren't as nationalistic in that sense.

I think most of us actually are quite proud to be where we're from. I know I am.

You OK Fred ?
that's a really well put non-inflammatory intelligent post (For an East Londoner!!)

Hmm I wonder how many English folk celebrate St George's Day?

It does seem to have gained a little popularity of late, which is good. But I find it slightly odd that a national day which coincides with the birthday and deathday of Shakespeare still goes largely unmarked, while St Andrew's Day and Burns' night celebrations happen all over the world.

Fair point actually. Personally I'm not all that fussed about saint's days, as that's a Christian thing, but a Shakespeare Day might be a good un. Give up some of the Christian holidays such as Whitsun, Good Friday, Easter, replace them with more 'English' holidays. Don't see why such things can't change,; culture is a constantly evolving thing, not some stagnant permanently fixed entity.

Scotland could have a John Logie Baird Day (TBH I think that would actually be a greater celebration of Scottishness in a global context than Burns' Night), we could have a Isambard Kingdom Brunel day, and the Welsh could have a Harry Secombe Day.

[img] [/img]

Its head looks like the kind of thing one might find on a sex-doll...so I hear.

about a third of scots want independance

So, because approximately one point six million people want independence, that's good enough reason to ignore the views and onions of the other fifty eight or so million UK citizens?

Wunundred! 😀

Oh, and Scottish people; you're getting an extra bank holiday next year to celebrate the Queen's Diamond Jubilee.

Aren't you lucky! 😀

Many of the people I know who vote for the SNP do so because they regard the biggest issue facing Scotland as independence.

Opposite here. Most people I know that voted SNP are not in favour of independence, but didn't want Labour back and saw the SNP as viable opposition.

Scotland could have a John Logie Baird Day

I think we celebrate his (main) contribution more than enough!

GrahamS - Member
...Opposite here. Most people I know that voted SNP are not in favour of independence, but didn't want Labour back and saw the SNP as viable opposition.

I thought they all went Lib Dem.

I'd say its as difficult for someone like me, from the north to identify with being 'English' as it is for the Scots.

When I see this ridiculous home counties idea of Englishness portayed in Daily Mail-land, I feel the same connection to it as I do to the indigenous tribesmen of Papua New Guinea

Hmm, i'm from the North too Binners (just round the corner from you remember? :P) yet i DO feel a sense of 'Englishness' if you will. Maybe it comes from my love of history but i love the story of the creation of England, how waves of settlers and warriors took a land from the natives then defended that land against their cousins the Danes and the Norse. How 'Anglaland' was at one point reduced to approx. 5 square miles around Athelney before Alfred and his warlords started to retake England. How Alfred's dream of uniting all of the 'Angelcynn' under one banner became a reality under AEthelstan etc.
I think the difference is that being English we've not had anyone to hate (maybe the wrong term) for such a long time (since we were last conquered) that we have not needed the indignant sense of Nationalism that the Scots and Welsh feel - understandably.
We've become so comfortable with our self-identity that we allowed the racists and extremists to take our Flag and besmirch it.

muddydwarf - Member
...I think the difference is that being English we've not had anyone to hate (maybe the wrong term) for such a long time (since we were last conquered) that we have not needed the indignant sense of Nationalism that the Scots and Welsh feel - understandably...

Ah, but we weren't conquered.

Our king took over the throne of England (union of the crowns), and then 100 years later our parasitic aristocrats sold us down the river of union of the parliaments.

I don't think we hate the English, but we do have a contempt for our quislings who as soon as they get to Westminster forget their country.

I think the difference is that being English we've not had anyone to hate...

http://www.jokefile.co.uk/odds/french.html
http://www.igreens.org.uk/more_french_jokes.htm
http://www.arrse.co.uk/miscellaneous-jokes/144474-french-jokes.html

etc etc 🙂

Personally, i'd like to see Scottish Independence. It won't make the blindest bit of difference to the great majority of the English, and it might just make both Nations grow up a little.
I do wonder what groups like the Scottish SnG would do if it did happen though..

Ah but we don't hate the French, pity them, bemused by them and increasingly jealous of them yes, but not hate - certainly not in the way that some Scots appear to hate the English! 😛

There certainly would appear to be more people voted SNP than poll in favour of independence. We will find out when the referendum is held.

alec Salmond is a very able politician and makes the rest at Holyrood look like political nonentities

The independence debate has moved a long way in Scotland from how i remember it back in the 70s - much more open and outward looking, much more positive and much less defined by "we hate the english"

In the end its a philosophical point - do you want self determination as a nation or do you want to remain a junior part of a union. To those wedded tot eh idea of independence the economic arguement is irrelevant. Would you stay in a joyless marriage because you enjoyed the lifestyle?

My view is that an independent Scotland would be much better off - partly as a result of the oil money and partly 'cos they could make macro economic policy to suit.

As for the OPs point - why on earth should England have a vote on what Scotland does? I didn't get a vote for the London Mayer.

muddydwarf - Member
Personally, i'd like to see Scottish Independence. It won't make the blindest bit of difference to the great majority of the English, and it might just make both Nations grow up a little.

What time do you call this eh Uncle Jezza?

You also din't get a vote in the Doncaster, Hartlepool and Torbay Mayoral Elections, TJ. And neither did I.

So what's your point?

So, because approximately one point six million people want independence, that's good enough reason to ignore the views and onions of the other fifty eight or so million UK citizens?

Elfinsaefty, what's your point exactly? On one hand you're saying it it's a trivial thing and the UK as a whole shouldn't bother considering it, while on the other you're saying that nothing should change without an overall UK majority. You seem to be saying it's important enough for the uk as a whole to decide, but it's not important enough for the uk to actually do any deciding. Which to me is a bit like saying to scotland "Sit down and shut up. speak when you're spoken to. nobody asked you". Which is exactly the kind of thing that makes [b]Two Thirds[/b] of people is scotland want significant change to the current arrangements.

111 posts and nobody has mentioned legal tender!!!?!!? 😀

As for the OPs point - why on earth should England have a vote on what Scotland does? I didn't get a vote for the London Mayer.

England wouldn't get a vote - this thread demonstrates there is no coherent idea of what that is, let alone a collective identity. The proposal is that every citizen of the UK would have a say in what happened to the future of the UK. You didn't get a vote in the London Mayor elections because you don't live in London.

The oil money could be a bit of a canard actually, i remember looking up the comparative costings for 2004 and being surprised to find that the gap between what Scotland earned in internal revenue raised and what she spent was 3.5 times the amount of revenue raised from the oil money - in other words, 9at least for that year) the oil money made the shortfall a little less embarrassing it seems. I've no idea what the costings are for this year though.
Plus, the gas will be English apart from 5% and England will get 5% of the oil revenue - such as it is.

I don't get the Scottish whines about 'our' oil though, the project was funded with UK revenue so it's only right that the revenue returned was returned to the UK Govt.

Oh Christ! That's torn it!!

*runs off and hides*

Elfinsaefty, what's your point exactly?

Would the dissolution of the Union be of benefit to [i]all[/i] the people of the UK. Not just a small minority.

[i]That's[/i] my point.

Why should the people of Cornwall or the North East, or South Wales not have a say in something that could have an impact on their economic situation?

My view is that an independent Scotland would be much better off - partly as a result of the oil money and partly 'cos they could make macro economic policy to suit.

What a greedy self-centered Toryesque view. 'Sod the rest of you we want the money for yourselves'.

Nice, TJ; nice....

Oh and if we do agree to a trial separation, could we give you the Old Firm and their bampot fans as a farewell gift? Orange walks, you can have them too if you like. Actually, we'll give your our Neds for free as well. 😀

No thanks, we'll get enough bowler-hatted ****wits landing here when Ulster reverts to the Rpublic! 😆

My view is that an independent Scotland would be much better off - partly as a result of the oil money and partly 'cos they could make macro economic policy to suit.

Aaaaaaaaaah - the Arc of Prosperity. Macro-economic policy that would have included the regulatory framework of Iceland for RBS and HBOS, and the tax regime of Dublin. That was Alec's oft stated macro-economic policy, wasn't it?

Greece would be looking like Switzerland in comparison. You'd all be presently bartering with chickens in a post-apocalyptic hell

"You also din't get a vote in the Doncaster, Hartlepool and Torbay Mayoral Elections, TJ. And neither did I.

Elfinsafety, earlier you said that on the basis that London makes more money than Scotland, Scottish Independance is irrelevent to the uk. But you also say that Scotland shouldn't be allowed to go independnant without the UK's permission.

So if london is as important as you say, all in the uk should have had a vote on the london Mayor. And if scottish independance is as irrelevent as you say, then just like we didn't get a vote on the hartlepool bielection, the uk shouldn't get a vote on scottish independance.

So what's your point?

It's back there. You mustuv missed it...

Would the dissolution of the Union be of benefit to all the people of the UK. Not just a small minority.

Surprised at you [b]Elf[/b], supporting the oppression of an ethnic minority by imperialist rulers just because it benefits the majority?

Or is that okay cos the Scots have different coloured* skin? 😉

Racialistismist.

.

(* light blue)

It's back there. You mustuv missed it...

Yeah, it went up while I was writing.

So, simple question - is Scottish Indpendance irrelevent to the uk or not?

Sorry, I was not listening.

What was the question?

It's not irrelevant as there wouldn't be a United Kingdom if Scotland were to dissolve the Union. Whether it would have any impact on the great majority of English people is another matter, how much of England's trade is with Scotland?

Can we not apply the theory of setting free:

If you love someone, set them free. If they come back they're yours; if they don't they never were.

What a greedy self-centered Toryesque view. 'Sod the rest of you we want the money for yourselves'.

Can't speak for TJ personally, but if there is one thing that scotland is NOT, it is toryesque. Having Tories in UK government is one of the things that has given the Indpendece movement in scotland a wee bost in recent years.

No say whatsoever for the English since that's not their land but there is always an option to take the Scots by force and put them to hard labour ... again ...

Or let them have their independence ...

Then let the Scots go house to house to search for the English ...

Then put them English to hard labour.

😆

Sorry, I was not listening.

What was the question?

is Scottish Indpendance irrelevent to the uk or not?

Only if there's the [i]possibility[/i] that it's actually going to happen, which is how likely?

And let's be honest; how much of the 'proud cultural heritage and identity' is actually a smokescreen for 'the oil's running out let's grab all the profits for ourselves while we still can'?

And to those wanting independence: What language do you propose to speak? Y'know, unique cultural identity and heritage being oh so important and that? 😉

Even the phrasing of the question demonstrates the kind of attitude that make 2/3 of scots want to a change

Scottish Independence - should the [b]English [/b] have a say?

What about Wales and NI having a say, or is it only the English who are allowed to decide what happens to any of the other countries in the Union?

I wonder, how many people are currently unemployed per capita in Scotland, and how many are in England?

Would TJ's beloved Macro-Economic Scottish Policy decrease that number?

not very IMO - I doubt an independence referendum will get a majority but it might be a close run thing.

What if we give you the Falklands; that way you can have your own island, miles form England, and not have to be bothered by us Sassenachs any more?

Fair deal?

I wonder, how many people are currently unemployed per capita in Scotland, and how many are in England?

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-15754266 ]The Scottish unemployment rate is now 8%, below the UK average of 8.3%.[/url]

Talking to a chap i was on holiday with, an Englishman who worked in the oil industry and has lived in Scotland for 20 yrs or so, he reckoned the Scots would bottle it at the last minute, that it was all posturing and that most would back away from full independence at the polls.

8% unemployed eh?

How would that be affected by Independence? Would it increase or decrease? Hard to say i suppose but it must be in the minds or ordinary Scots.

he reckoned the Scots would bottle it at the last minute, that it was all posturing and that most would back away from full independence at the polls.

Current opinion polls show that two-thirds of Scots don't want full independence - so I'm not sure how that is posturing or why showing that majority at a referendum would be "bottling it"?

Most Scots are currently unconvinced. But... I think most seem to agree that the SNP have done a reasonably good job so far, so they are starting to listen to what wee Alex has to say.

Only if it's actually going to happen, which is how likely?

Not sure about likely, but it's a very real possibility, i'd say independence lite/devo max is more likely, and at the moment is probably what I'd vote for.

But here's a few things.

Blue Peter Badge winners never get into scottish stuff for free.

On the [b]UK [/b] news: "If you don't want to know the score in the Premiership, Championship, league one, league two, league three, conference, regional pub league look away now.....meanwhile in Scotland Celtic won, Rangers lost, and who's even heard of the oher teams anyway."

Everything you hear see and read about Scotland in London based media and even on here talks about the place like it's a colonial outpost with untamed natives.

My heart says independance, my head says devolution.

What if we give you the Falklands; that way you can have your own island, miles form England, and not have to be bothered by us Sassenachs any more?

Fair deal?

I understood him to mean that 'Scots as an entity' would bottle the challenge presented by full Independence. I am left wondering how long Salmond has left with his Independence policy, if after all these years the SNP can still not convince Scots of the benefits of Independence then how long will his star shine? I would have thought that with the recession and a Tory/LimpDem coalition in Westminster slashing and burning their way through the public sector cinditions would be ideal for Independence.

No send [i]you[/i] there without internets then we won't have to put up with your crap typing. 😡

Now Elf's threatening to deport us?

[i]"Why don't you back where you came from?"[/i] is that it Elf?

*shakes head*

That snickers was smashing.

Well, anyway - what I think is that we should, erm... Oh, wait - pork pie and mustard. Yum...

Twa neebor wifes sat i’ the sun,
A twynin at their rocks,
An they an airgument began,
An a’ the plea was...

Or how about; we give you full independence, but only revenue from oil proportionate to your population compared to that of the whole UK, so, 9% or so. Or swap you some gas?

Would youse be happy with that?

Cos yer not getting all the oil, you do know that don't you? 😉

I'm having some Cheese and Onion Crisps. 😐

I'd just let the SNP get on with it.

Jose Manuel Barroso has already made it abundantly clear that entry into the EU will be conditional on membership of the Euro. Proposing an independence referendum on the grounds that it better meets the interests of the Scottish people has been timed to perfection.

There was little reluctance by the SNP to accept a £20bn bailout coordinated by the Treasury for one of its own national banks in 2008. Quite ironic seeing as RBS can trace its history to the Scottish Banking Company, a company formed by the shareholders of the Darien expedition following its bail out by England under the Act of Union in 1707 (article 14) How the bailout of RBS and HBOS would have worked in an independent Scotland is pretty unclear.

What is astonishing is how little debate this is generating politically in England among any of the major parties, given he constitutional and practical problems that would ensue for all neighbouring countries should a vote for independence be secured. Salmond has the floor to himself on this topic at the moment.

There was little reluctance by the SNP to accept a £20bn bailout coordinated by the Treasury for one of its own national banks in 2008.

Mmm.. that "Treasury" money was partly from Scottish taxpayers too tho, no?

As was the money for Northern Rock...

Cos yer not getting all the oil, you do know that don't you?

The old Scotland vs England fixture could be on the cards again 🙂

kerplunk - if Scotland is independent the UK no longer exists in the same form, so if Scotland would have to renegotiate terms with the EU so would the rump UK.

Can you really imagine that the EU would not want Scotland? with most of the EUs oil, much of its potential renewables, much of its fishing grounds?

Scotland has plenty to offer the EU

I am not reading 4 pages of the same old bolloocks so I will merely add the following bullet points:

• the scots should be free to choose the destiny of their nation, whatever that may be.
• the oil deposits in the north sea are dwindling and will offer significantly lower returns on new finds that present new challenges in extraction. The fossil fuel finance ship has sailed. Period.
• England would be richer per head without Scotland.
• if I was Scottish I would want to be 100% independent.

England would be richer per head without Scotland

Dunno why as Scotland is a net contributor to the UK economy

Mmm.. that "Treasury" money was partly from Scottish taxpayers too tho, no?

As was the money for Northern Rock...

Not the point. SNP wants full independence and fiscal autonomy. How would an independent Scotland have generated the revenue to fund a £20bn bailout on it's own? Germany cannot generate sufficient interest in its bonds at auction so how would an independent Scotland have raised the revenue to fund the bailout? Last time I checked both HBOS and RBS were banks whose headquarters were based in Edinburgh therefore I assume the SNP would consider them Scottish and not English companies.

kerplunk - if Scotland is independent the UK no longer exists in the same form, so if Scotland would have to renegotiate terms with the EU so would the rump UK

dunno ??

http://www.firmmagazine.com/news/2653/UK_Government_lawyers_declare_an_independent_Scotland_would_automatically_secede_from_EU.html

Scotland is a net contributor to the UK economy

Pends what figures you use I spose...

[img] [/img]

*could lurk and read these debates all day*

indeed it does elf.

Jota - and the scottish government has different advice - and can you explain why when the UK no longer exists that England and Wales would remain members and Scotland would not?

Also - if you want an independent Scotland this remains irrelevant.

Right. I am on a train with nothing else to do, so I HAVE read ATS.

Maybe it comes from my love of history but i love the story of the creation of England, how waves of settlers and warriors took a land from the natives

The natives? Us Welsh and Irish then AKA Britons.

So if london is as important as you say, all in the uk should have had a vote on the london Mayor.

The Mayor only deals with stuff that only affects London afaik.

Anyway. Federal UK FTW. You know I'm right, I always am.