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I did not see any nastyness during the last referendum campaign. Indeed when bitter together complained eroneously about imaginary intimidation they were roundly rebuked by the chief constable for stirring up trouble
Only folk prosecuted where a unionist imported from NI who kicked a pregnant woman
Point of order. Holyrood is elected on a proportional system.
Only partly. And we still have the same problem we get at Westminster ie it is possible for one party to get the vast majority of the seats with only a minority of the vote.
In Scotland the vast majority of leave voters vote for one party, while the remain vote is split across three parties. With apologies to all the minor parties out there.
I did not see any nastyness during the last referendum campaign.
I pointed out (nicely) to a couple of activists that them hanging banners from a bridge over the bypass was causing long delays and could potentially cause an accident. They threatened to attack me if I didn't leave. Called me a traitor to my country. A friend who had a No sticker on his car had his back window smashed by a brick the day after the vote.
To be fair though, the large majority of SNP supporting folk I met were great so I wouldn't tar them all with the same brush. And I'm sure there were idiots on the other side too.
bitter together
Now you're a very decent bloke TJ, and we've had various well mannered debates, but that sort of thing doesn't sit too well.
Some friends of mine received letters from their employer telling them that they "could" lose their jobs if they voted Yes. This was a week or so before polling day. Not violence but still intimidation.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/sawmill-staff-feel-pressured-over-4162847
Only partly. And we still have the same problem we get at Westminster ie it is possible for one party to get the vast majority of the seats with only a minority of the vote.
Thats really not possible. Seats reflect votes to a few %
Its simply not possible for what you descibe to happen
Better together ran a very nasty negative campaign but point taken
Some friends of mine received letters from their employer telling them that they “could” lose their jobs if they voted Yes. This was a week or so before polling day. Not violence but still intimidation.
Blackmail, or "if we leave the UK we're making the pragmatic decision to move to London"
In Scotland the vast majority of leave voters vote for one party, while the remain vote is split across three parties
True, however it also ignores the fact that a significant number of voters of traditionally unionist parties support indy (1/3 of the Labour membership iirc). To a lesser extent, the same could be said of SNP voters.
That’s it now, I’ve had enough of the Sunak/Truss show. Each trying to outdo each other with the most horrendous policies. If either of those two win the next election, then I’m voting for independence.
I'm rapidly coming to the same conclusion.
It's not a vote for independence it's a vote to distance us from that embarrassment we call a government .
Nothing may change.
It may be worse
But it'll be different .... And at this stage I'll take that
I did not see any nastyness during the last referendum campaign.
Must have been a busy spell at work because it was definitely there on a local level
Whilst I did'nt experience first hand any nastiness during the 2014 indy ref, I'm totally prepared to accept that others did. There are bampots on both sides. I did see some intimidation going on during the 2015 referendum the culprits were officers of the Libdems.
However the tit for tat claims are pointless we should all treat one another as we would like to be treated ourselves
I remember someone talking on Facebook in the 2014 vote, about someone deserving to get stabbed. This was directed towards electoral officials in Dundee on the basis that someone told them what they was seeing was vote rigging, there wasn't any evidence provided but that didnt seem important.
No, hang on, there was another one not long after the vote, on the Cairngorm Mountain page where someone posted how they hated hearing English accents on the hill and theyd like to violently assault them for the vote being lost.
Memory is a bit more fuzzy on that one. More trolling than someone about to set out to attack people.
No, hang on, there was another one not long after the vote, on the Cairngorm Mountain page where someone posted how they hated hearing English accents on the hill and theyd like to violently assault them for the vote being lost.
So didn't actually happen?
Elderly guy handing out pro Indy pamphlets assaulted. Ruth the liar tweeting that Indy supporters were campaigning outside a polling station( denied by police and polling station.) Then the rule Britannia Mob with their Nazi salutes in the after party. And that idiot Murphy trying to start shit everywhere. The too wee/too poor campaign run by bitter together (weird how unionists are touchy about it being mentioned now.) One of their office had their windows smashed, that’s what I remember from last time.
I'm Welsh but live in England since I was like 3 or 4 years old, so I'm essentially english, I've always tried to belive that the Union should be maintained in the UK and I belive the EU should be maintained at a more macro level.
But the last few years since brexit... well, damn...
With specific reference to the Scotts independance vote a few years back... that was a vote cast without knowing they were going to be dragged out of the EU against the will of the polulous.
The goal posts have shifted a bit since then, (hard brexit) to put it lightly, and that's not what Scottish unionists voted for.
I'm not going to sit here and pretend to profess to know what's best for Scotts in future, and I don't have any skin in that game directly...
But what I do know, is that If I were Scottish, I'd be very much anti-UK, but pro-EU at the moment, And I'd probably be pushing for a second independance vote.
I don't blame the Scotts for causing a massive stink about this, they were conned.
With the way the Conservative And Unionist Party behaves towards the union it professes to believe so important, frankly it deserves to get humped in the election and to lose Scotland (I would love this).
Let's not pretend it will be easy or without significant problems. But it's very simple in some regards:
*Is the status quo tenable? No.
*Is there any meaningful prospect of change from the Tories or Labour? No.
So, in honesty, what option does that leave the people of Scotland other than the nuclear option? Is it a good option - no, it has many possible downsides, but it is an option, and long-term is likely to be better than atrophying under the mendacious sh*t****ery of the Tories (and, worryingly, possibly Labour too). And it's the only option to break the stifling stalemate.
Well put
So didn’t actually happen?
As in an actual assault? Doubt it. Just online racism using the referendum as a reason to be a dick.
Is there any meaningful prospect of change from the Tories or Labour?
Why don't you think Labour would do anything different?
Why don’t you think Labour would do anything different?
Ive not seen anything from Starmer thats going to make any meaningful difference. Is there something you're seeing that would?
Unless Labour are genuinely putting forward something that will stick well beyond a single term of government then I cant see how it makes any difference to the case. Bearing in mind that the Tories were bad enough before Brexit.
And then there is the historical precedents (and importantly their perception) of promises from Westminster.
So, in honesty, what option does that leave the people of Scotland other than the nuclear option? Is it a good option – no, it has many possible downsides, but it is an option, and long-term is likely to be better than atrophying under the mendacious sh*t****ery of the Tories (and, worryingly, possibly Labour too). And it’s the only option to break the stifling stalemate.
This +1.
@molgrips Sadly Starmer has been pretty consistent on the theme of not engaging in any way with the SNP and he certainly isn't minded to grant Indyref2. His calculation is seemingly that any quarter given to the SNP would open Labour up to brutal attack from the right wing press.
I'm not sure how he plans to win a GE without an electoral pact with the SNP in Scotland tho...
Starmer was on the new podcast that Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart have launched - within the past fortnight or so. I really want to like Starmer, and he said some sensible things on the pod, but he reiterated the no-surrender to the SNP message, while failing to offer any hint of an idea that could break the stifling stalemate. And Starmer shot down any thought of electoral reform - no idea why he doesn't want PR. And ironically, if it wasn't for the PR that the Tories profess to hate, they simply wouldn't be a presence in the Scottish Parliament.
There is a weird theme from some of the unionists outside of Scotland, where they seem to think that Scotland can be hated into staying. It's like some batsh*t crazy Stockholm Syndrome mind trick.
Rightly or wrongly, my estimation is the only hope of Britain turning a corner to make things better is for Scotland to leave. There seems little hope for progressive politics at the moment.
And Starmer shot down any thought of electoral reform – no idea why he doesn’t want PR.
Because the unions don't want it. They killed off the resolution in last years' annual conference.
There is an argument that Starmer/Labour policies could, after a successful GE, create an environment in which Scotland is less driven towards independence. However, we're not seeing what those policies might be and with ruling out PR, "fiscal prudence" and no prospect of a EU single market etc then I'm not seeing anything attractive in a Labour government. Of course, first they have to be elected and then it'll only be temporary while the next lot of Tories ready themselves.
Labour have also shown themselves to be untrustworthy regarding devolution after all the promises of "The Vow" turned out to be meaningless.
I just can't see a long term future in the UK.
In any case I'm still not seeing anything resembling an independence campaign from the SNP so the whole thread is moot.
Ive not seen anything from Starmer thats going to make any meaningful difference. Is there something you’re seeing that would?
Well, the fact he's not Johnson is an absolutely major difference. You won't see policies coming from them until nearer an election.
@molgrips Sadly Starmer has been pretty consistent on the theme of not engaging in any way with the SNP and he certainly isn’t minded to grant Indyref2.
I was talking about the UK not Scotland.
So, in honesty, what option does that leave the people of Scotland other than the nuclear option? Is it a good option – no, it has many possible downsides, but it is an option, and long-term is likely to be better than atrophying under the mendacious sh*t****ery of the Tories (and, worryingly, possibly Labour too). And it’s the only option to break the stifling stalemate.
I'm a frequent silent reader of this thread (it's not my first reason for visiting STW), but very much this for me. Well summarised.
It definitely wouldn't be perfect, but independence has got to be better than the way things are now and are heading.
Starmer says
No to indyref 2
No to single market
No to further devolution
No to any pact with the SNP
No to electoral reform.
That's a short list but enough to convince a lot of Scots that there is not enough difference between Labour and Tory.
That’s a short list but enough to convince a lot of Scots that there is not enough difference between Labour and Tory.
Not enough of a difference - sure. But clearly there will be differences. Starmer's hands are tied to an extent by his electoral position, as are all UK politicians thanks to the system we have. Which is kind of the point of democracy, in a way. Sad but true.
as are all UK politicians thanks to the system we have.
If only the people of Scotland had another option...
Not enough of a difference – sure. But clearly there will be differences. Starmer’s hands are tied to an extent by his electoral position, as are all UK politicians thanks to the system we have. Which is kind of the point of democracy, in a way. Sad but true.
So Starmer wants change but doesn't want change... Not palatable to many folks. He's lost me with his pinhead dancing.
And his hands don't need to be tied as regards the system - I honestly think the first politician to really spell out how to modernise UK politics would be on a winner.
I just don't get Starmer's position at all. Much of the drive towards an Indy Scotland is to escape perpetual & nakedly corrupt Tory Govt under the WM FPTP system. If he can offer a real alternative with a push to PR, a 'progressive alliance' coalition with LDs, Greens and SNP, nationalised utilities, a codified constitution, Brexit mitigation, windfall taxes, restrictions on lobbying & expenses, genuine accountability etc etc, then the desire for many Scots to escape the current shitshow would surely diminish and may save the union? His current stance simply pushes the mibbies aye / mibbies naw Scots firmly towards a yes vote. Perhaps he's keeping his powder dry to keep the Tufton St wolves at bay and will emerge from a phone box with his SKS pants on over his tights a couple of months before the next GE and hold aloft a raft of sensible centrist policies to save the union. Won't hold my breath....
I honestly think the first politician to really spell out how to modernise UK politics would be on a winner.
Agreed. And it wouldn't need to go as far as downshep says (nationalisation, windfall taxes etc would not be everyone's ideal). Ironically it would be playing the Tories at their own "levelling up" game. The problem for labour is it either involves admitting they can't win on the current system (and thus have to rig the system for the future) OR risk their own seats - the reason we have FPTP is it works for the two parties big enough to initiate change. I think the other problem is anyone tackling the union will have to face up to the Brexit shambles - that's scary for politicians, how can they say "its a stupid idea" when the public backed it... How can you deal with Scotland and NI without addressing it properly. A real statesman could probably make EEA or similar seem win-win for everyone.
Well, the fact he’s not Johnson is an absolutely major difference. You won’t see policies coming from them until nearer an election.
No, thats both temporary and ignores the motivations for Indy pre date Boris.
Unless something really fundamental shifts in the way UK politics work then its not going to wash.
No, thats both temporary and ignores the motivations for Indy pre date Boris.
Some people's do yes. I'm not using Starmer as a pro-union argument, I'm simply addressing the point that 'nothing would change' with Starmer, when it will. Wether or not that's enough is up to you.
I honestly think the first politician to really spell out how to modernise UK politics would be on a winner.
I honestly don't because most people haven't got a ****ing clue what any of it is actually about.
You won’t see policies coming from them until nearer an election.
Which is a bit of a problem if there is an IndyRef before then.
You won’t see policies coming from them until nearer an election.
This is a problem for me. I want to like Starmer, but it is not enough to not be Johnson. I want to know what he thinks and stands for.
Right wing media hostility or not, he should start laying out his policies - because as we are seeing in elections around the world (look at AUstralia and the Murdoch press) that the right wing press does not equate to the will of the people. People are tired of the culture wars.
I say again, I want to like Starmer, and I need him to have the courage of his convictions and believe his ideas are worth laying out now. Otherwise we'll need to wait for an election and the infuriating pointless poster reveals. FFS.
I say again, I want to like Starmer, and I need him to have the courage of his convictions and believe his ideas are worth laying out now.
Probably best read the Starmer thread 😄. You seem to be suggesting that he/Labour have ideas that are different from the current government whereas I see no evidence of that.
This is a problem for me.
Agree but I think it's how the LP works. They decide policies at the conference, they don't belong to the leader do they?
Wether or not that’s enough is up to you.
Its not, theres nothing of any serious or believable substance thats going to change the equation.
Conference does not bind the plp anymore
I was talking about the UK not Scotland.
Maybe you were but they are two distinct issues. Frankly the Labour leader is immaterial and Starmer is a complete irrelevance. This will continue to be the case as long as Scottish Labour continue to play their own batshit game of SNP Baaad! to the detriment of their own parties policies. They would rather vote against their own policies and in fact their own candidates than allow the SNP to implement either. So long as this myopic shithousery continues people will continue to avoid them, and by extension the wider Labour Party, for the childish rabble that they are. Labour's troubles in Scotland are entirely of their own making and as long as they refuse to change then they will be left behind.
“Leaving us to perpetual Conservatism at Westminster is not very nice … 🤷♂️
That above has to be one of the biggest heaps of shite ever. Labour has been trotting it out since about 2011.Scots are not leaving England or English people behind to anything. If English people don't want a Tory government don't vote for them. It's that simple. I'm disappointed in Rayner I hoped for better from her. Rant over.
Frankly the Labour leader is immaterial and Starmer is a complete irrelevance.
I think that depends if you are in the take back control camp or the anything but Westminster camp.
It’s that simple.
I don't think it is tbh. I mean I'm not saying I agree with Rayner but it's not simple, divorce never is.
I reckon our only chance of independence is to raise an army and invade lower England 😕
No stopping this time.
I never mentioned divorce molgrips. I did say that if people in England don't want a Tory government they should not vote Tory. I'm aware that different areas vote for different parties but fundamentally it's as simple as I suggested
Maybe you were but they are two distinct issues. Frankly the Labour leader is immaterial and Starmer is a complete irrelevance. This will continue to be the case as long as Scottish Labour continue to play their own batshit game of SNP Baaad! to the detriment of their own parties policies. They would rather vote against their own policies and in fact their own candidates than allow the SNP to implement either. So long as this myopic shithousery continues people will continue to avoid them, and by extension the wider Labour Party, for the childish rabble that they are. Labour’s troubles in Scotland are entirely of their own making and as long as they refuse to change then they will be left behind.
TBH the what I see from the Lib-Dem's here is no different, their leader is playing the same game - very much supporting football team politics.
I think that depends if you are in the take back control camp or the anything but Westminster camp.
Nope, you're wrong. I'm very much of the "take back control" ilk as are most folk I know. My point was written very much from that perspective. I don't know how much you actually hear about Scottish Labour but they could certainly give Boris and his bampots a run for their money, at least the tories are competent enough to shoot someone else rather than their own feet.
TBH the what I see from the Lib-Dem’s here is no different, their leader is playing the same game – very much supporting football team politics.
Oh they're all at it, I agree. Doesn't help that Libs are practically invisible up here.
Just catching-up on the day's news and threads - and that's disappoint nonsense from Labour. Weird that she blames the Scots for not voting Labour and the Tories keep forming unholy alliances in Scotland.
I hope the SNP go hard on the dysfunction of Ofgem which means that bountiful and relatively cheap renewable power must be sold at inflated prices as part of their "rules". Makes no sense and, while unpleasant, could make quite a good wedge issue (if you accept the stauts quo as being untenable).
The dichotomy is that a referendum will be a YES/NO vote where you end up dropping out completely, or staying in. Wheras a union is forged over time, built up by several smaller agreements with back and forth, re-negotiations and so on.
So you're saying we don't have a union? 😉
Supreme court decision due tomorrow.
anyone want to take bets?
My guess is that they'll park any decision as there is no Referendum Bill yet, so it's all too hypothetical. See Martin Keatings.
I have a sneaking suspicion it might get the green light. But I wouldn't even bet a bawbee on it
Westminster can stop subsidizing the country
Wonderful! Can we go now? Don’t worry about passing on your debts either, as we’re such a basket case we’ll never pay them back 🤣
I would expect the SNP to want to get this done whilst the Tories are still here. If the Tories collapse further and get routed in the next GE then it'll make the union look a bit more appealing to a lot of people, I reckon.
Nope. anti tory is a small amount of the motivation but you have to understand that the labour party and the tories are seen as two cheeks of the same arse
you do realise that in local councils in Scotland labour are doing deals with the tories to keep the SNP out even to the point of on Edinburgh council two labour Councillors where thrown out of the party for refusing to back a deal with the tories
A labour government will make very little difference to independence support because they co operate with tories against the SNP in Scotland and a labour government will not do the things that the scots electorate want
Labour are seen as part of the problem not part of the solution. If labour were pro EU and pro real constitutional change then maybe but until they are.......................
Yes or No will still be mainly about whether people feel like it will be better for them, their families and communities and so on. The SNP and the other side will have to sell that with as much facts or predictions as they can, discounting those who will vote Yes or No no matter what (Nationalists, Monarchists, etc).
Not sure I totally agree TJ. There are of course plenty of people pro independent for lots of very good pro independent reasons. But there are a good dollop who are mainly persuaded (or at the very least were once on the fence but have now jumped to independence) by the Westminster shambles. And a shambolic, crony raddled, scandal hit, introvert set of tories with a whiff of Johnston still lingering over them, is just about the perfect foil to an independence campaign.
With a shiny new (new) Labour in power with a semblance of competence (even if you object to their policies about Scotland) there will be a few returning to sit on the fence who'll need their insecurities about the economics of becoming independence quelling again. The 'panic' to leave at any cost (a perceived any cost rather than a factual any cost) to get away from the madness will die down.
Of course the perfect scenario might be the tories continuing to be shown as awful human beings in every measurable way to anyone who values morals or good judgement but an English-centric electorate still voting them back in in 2024. That nightmare groundhog day might just be the proof needed that things are never going to change and the marginal voters will be convinced that they fundamentally cant abide the current situation if an alternative might be possible.
We're about to enter a 2 year period of austerity and struggles, that'll have more of an effect on those who could be swayed one way or the other, a lot of folk aren't that bothered by tories or politicians being daft, they usually think all of them are daft.
Convert - thats the way most folk up here see labour and the tories. No real difference. Partly due to their antics in holyrood and partly due to the behaviour on councils.
I can't remember - are you scotland based?
I would like to see it happen but i fear there is too much uncertainty in the UK due to the current conditions(economy,wars,strikes,pay etc) and the (Scottish) voters just won't want to take the chance.
I can’t remember – are you scotland based?
Yep - born here, 46 years down south, but back from 2020. If I'd have had a vote in 2014 I'd have voted no; now I would definitely vote yes.
Yes, labour and tory have a bad rep - but the current tory mob has a special level of incompetence and value base that is very easy to despise....and sway the swayable. Like many aspects of democracy, the independence vote will have precious little to do with convincing diehards and everything to do with 'the mood' of the persuadable middle. And right now, after the last 12 months of Westminster chaos they are ripe for persuasion, making this pretty much the perfect moment.
I would expect the SNP to want to get this done whilst the Tories are still here. If the Tories collapse further and get routed in the next GE then it’ll make the union look a bit more appealing to a lot of people, I reckon.
Completely agree, I'm not so sure the high court will play ball tho
Its not just they have a bad reputation. they are seen as the same. same anti democratic instincts, same refusal to accept brexit is wrong, same general fiscal approach. Labour have nothing to offer scotland
Sure 10 years of competent labour government in westminster that took us back into the EU would change that but if this isn't decided in oct 23 it will be at the next GE. there is no time for labour to rehabilitate and quite honestly given how they behave in Scotland they don't deserve rehabilitation
Imagine a labour local party kicking two councilors out because they refused to go into coaltion with the tories. that shows a great deal
vote labour get tory
The only way Scotland and the scottish people can get the government they vote for is independence.
The only way Scotland and the scottish people can get the government they vote for is independence
Actually post Indy there would still be around half the population not getting the govt they voted for. That is democracy. A big chunk don't get the govt they voted for.
As for Scotland getting the govt it votes for? It has the SNP who are responsible for most of the day to day stuff that effects people's lives. Health, education, police, fire, local govt, etc etc.
Personally I think they are making a bit if an arse if it and Indy wouldn't change that. Ferries, drug deaths etc.
It's moot though. I very much doubt there will be another indyref any time soon.
The current debate is about whether or not the people of Scotland have the right to choose at all. Once we've cleared that one up there will be plenty of time for thinking about what a post-Indy Scotland might be like.
I am going for the "no decision as no bill has been presented yet" option. Fudge.
Two ferries, and as to drug deaths, the figures aren't just illegal drugs, they include all overdoses, so some old grannie overdoes the codeine, into the figures they go.
As to the rest. Isn't that down to the block grant* Scotland receives funding for things like the NHS etc from central government.
.
Not 100% sure as to the details of this, so if someone can fully explain how it works. But i think thats pretty much how funding works for Scotland.
Two ferries
It's a lot worse than that.
dyna ti
The scots government has some tax raising powers but very limited and deliberately designed so that the SNP cannot make the changes they would like. thats a small% of the budget tho. Most of the budget is defined by the barnett formula / block grant and the scots government has no borrowing powers so yes - the amount they have to spend is limited and effectively fixed so increased spending in one area means cuts in another and cuts in the english budget means cuts in the scottish one as well
As for Scotland getting the govt it votes for? It has the SNP who are responsible for most of the day to day stuff that effects people’s lives. Health, education, police, fire, local govt, etc etc.
with no powers in many areas including very limited taxation powers, no power over the grossly unfair rigged power market, no borrowing powers etc etc. the SNP are very limited in what they can do because they have such limited finance powers
Scotland has voted for left of centre governments for the last 70 years and has had them for a few years only and even then not as left as Scotland voted.
On the drugs deaths - they are bad. its mainly down to poverty. The SNP government wanted to put in supervised shooting galleries in Glasgow to give the addicts some protection from overdosage. Drug law powers are westminster not Scotland. The tories in london refused permission to take this step which would have cut deaths dramatically.
So the SNP get beaten with a stick over the deaths but have no powers to reduce the root cause - poverty or to take the best harm reduction path - shooting galleries
It shows the limitations of devolution exactly. the tories want the drug deaths to remain high to give a stick to beat the SNP with
The current debate is about whether or not the people of Scotland have the right to choose at all. Once we’ve cleared that one up there will be plenty of time for thinking about what a post-Indy Scotland might be like.
+1
And we'll elect a Govt with the priorities we want, just like we do now, but this time they'll control ALL the 'levers'.
Hopefully there will be a full and clear definition of how ALL the shared assets/liabilities will be divided that will be published before the vote and hopefully there won’t be any minor oversights and there won’t be the need for massive amounts of consultancy/legal fees to sort it all out if it happens.
Towser
the problem with that is to have that analysis needs the co operation of westminster and last time that was lacking. the SNP published their proposals but without westminster input in can only be a proposal.
But presumably there is a ‘list’ somewhere that identifies everything and for that list there is a clear full statement on how Scotland thinks things should be divided. I don’t see what cooperation is needed to get to that point.
Yes that did exist at the last referendum and was relentlessly rubbished by better together who refused to make their own list.