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@tj so your advocating a Bollocks to everyone else stance then?
He's literally advocating the opposite of that. His stance is (unless I've misread everything he's said) is "This is what affects me, This is what I can do about it, so I'll do that"
Scotroutes. Im waiting for clothes to dry! About to set off again
Molgrips. Nope. England NI and wales are forign countries. The uk is a union of countries
I'm not.
I believe that with a more collaborative approach we are able to assist and aid people.
Again I'd not advocate any action that would push say Norway under.
Tribal same as nationalism?
What happens to the Snp then. You'll wind up with 2xparties with 2 opposing view points one right one left.
How's that going to be different to Westminster
so your advocating a Bollocks to everyone else stance then? Thats not very socialist is it. That is very nationalistic
As nickc says plus what buisness of mine is what happens in another country
England NI and wales are forign countries. The uk is a union of countries
If that's not a nationalistic viewpoint I don't know what is. It doesn't appear to be universally acknowledged either. You could start by editing Wikipedia, see how far you get:
"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain,[note 1][17] is a sovereign country in Europe"
Where are you getting these definitions of 'union' and 'country' from?
For example, the world’s largest tidal stream system is in scotland and it received a £10m investment by the UK gov to be built. Tidal stream systems receive an ongoing share of £20m/yr investment by the UK GOV.
It's our money, Scots pay taxes you know - in fact we've a specific Scottish Tax Code, were you aware?
Czechoslovakia isn’t an island is it.
It borders one of the main power houses of Europe.
Still avoiding the "unpicking" I see.
For example, the world’s largest tidal stream system is in scotland and it received a £10m investment by the UK gov to be built.
I guess you’ve never been involved in a large-scale engineering project? £10m is the kind of money spent on a small scale demonstrator/proof of concept - you need billions- £10m would keep 25 people in an office busy for 5 years, that’s all, they wouldn’t build anything, just run some simulations and create a big pile of paperwork.
Go on educate me ref the extraction from the ussr and coup and change in regime of an ex soviet block nation in the middle of Europe and its complexity in doing so with the support of non communist neighbours
and Scottish devolution.
I'd argue whist there maybe some lessons to learn the social political and geographical issues are very different.
Where are you getting these definitions of ‘union’ and ‘country’ from?
Well if we're using Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom
What happens to the Snp then. You’ll wind up with 2xparties with 2 opposing view points one right one left.
How’s that going to be different to Westminster
Proprtional representation
Of 2 right n left wing parties?
And a small centrist contingent?
dovebiker
I guess you’ve never been involved in a large-scale engineering project? £10m is the kind of money spent on a small scale demonstrator/proof of concept – you need billions- £10m would keep 25 people in an office busy for 5 years, that’s all, they wouldn’t build anything, just run some simulations and create a big pile of paperwork.
Thanks captain 😉 quite obviously the approach is not funding the entire project.
intheborders
It’s our money, Scots pay taxes you know – in fact we’ve a specific Scottish Tax Code, were you aware?
I don't see what point you are making? I was replying to a quote which said Westminster "refused to invest". I gave a few examples of Westminster's investments. 🤷♂️
Duncan. Of at least 5 parties right across the spectrum
When Scottish developments in renewables get no Westminster funding
I've got news for you. The funding for renewables comes from consumers bills. Not Westminster. Currently around £10BN per year.
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2020/06/13/dummies-guide-to-renewable-subsidies/
What the SNP want is the 90% of UK consumers not in Sdotland to subsidise more Scottish wind when we already have so much that we have to pay wind farms to stop producing.
https://utilityweek.co.uk/wind-curtailment-costs-hit-record-high-in-2021/
I'm quite happy without yet more green subsidies getting put on my electricity bill.
It'll wind up with 2 major players and some in the periphery.
I'm a natural cynic. It's a skill
His stance is (unless I’ve misread everything he’s said) is “This is what affects me, This is what I can do about it, so I’ll do that”
His stance is really, this'll lump me with perpetual tory governments, ya bastards. 😆
But it won't.
Where are you getting these definitions of ‘union’ and ‘country’ from?
His sense of identity, most likely.
Proprtional representation
That was specifically designed so Scotland would not end up with the look of Govt it has right now (dominated by a single party). How well it'll work when the work of the SNP is "by definition" over is anyone's guess. My guess is that it'll be a return to the normal coalitions of right and left wing bickering (and poor decision making) that is the norm for most developed democracies. The other problem is of course the SNP may very well lead Scotland to Independence, there's no guarantee it'll be them negotiating with the EU to start the journey (if that's what happens) or re-entry post Independence
Nailed there Nickc
I don't think so, I think we have a largely two-party system here precisely because of FPTP - new parties cannot get any traction because of tactical voting. If you could vote for who you actually wanted and expect it to count, the landscape would be very different.
There will be dominant parties, but likely coalitions will rule. i'd be happy with that. It's only polarized because of the identity crisis.
Molgrips
Why is believing Scotland is my country nationalist but believing the UK is my country acceptable to you?
I'm not passing judgement on you. I just want you to think about why you choose one not the other. I mean really, be honest with yourself.
And 'nationalist' isn't necessarily a judgement either. If you don't think it is, tell me why.
Scotland is my home. I feel it in my heart. You cannot change that
FFS i was born in Bristol. I could have supported rugby team that win things. I ended up a Edinburgh and Scotland supporter which is a world of pain.
England means no more to me than Germany
But what about Britain? You can get out of being English, you can't get out of being British.
I've never felt British.
Born in Plymouth, lived there less than 6months of my life. Been in Scotland the remainder, I am Scottish not British.
Not whats in my heart.
If pushed I am a brit of english descent but Scotland is my home.
And where feels like home is what counts. You cannot change what is in your heart
I've never felt British. I'm Scottish.
Isn't Scotland in Britain though?
I'm British. I live in Wales, but Wales is part of Britain and contributes to it. It'd be like saying I'm Cardiffian but not Welsh.
I’ve never felt British. I’m Scottish.
Why do you feel that way?
So Scotland is the same as a city noo. You don't have talk some pish.
It’d be like saying I’m Cardiffian but not Welsh.
No its not. Britain means nowt to me and its about whats in your heart.
If you feel british fine. I don't.
Nailed there Nickc
Not teally. Just showing a lack of understanding
Duncan. Do you live in Scotland?
Not sure how this has turned into this, I’m Scottish and also British, I’ve never felt like I want to pick one over the other, I’ll happily put British in a form that requires it.
It’s the same with this whole paradise that Scotland could be argument, Scotland will still have unionists, they’ll still have criminals, they’ll still have white van man and so on, talk of changing tax and welfare, or building a sustainable energy sector won’t cheer a lot of voters after independence if they have to give up 1 or 2 (or more) percentage of their wage to pay for it. The only change is that whoever governs won’t have Westminster to blame if it upsets too many voters.
Oh moley
Im an edinbugger not a soapdodger
Oh moley
Im an edinbugger not a soapdodger
Argee. You feel that in your heart its fine. I don't
Perhaps molgrips doesn't have a heart.
I'm just not sure why a country can be in your heart but when people talk about the overwhelming love they felt when they first held their baby, that is put down to a chemical reaction (see previous threads).
The heart is a muscle, nothing more.
I feel no sense of nationalism or belonging whatsoever and am hoping to leave GB forever in a few years' time.
Why do you feel that way?
Nothing complicated about it. I live in Scotland. Granted, that is in the northern portion of a land mass which was coined Great Britain. But, in terms of "Britishness" that means zip to me. I'm Scottish.
Actually i think your wrong there argee on money. The SNP were elected on a tax raising manifesto and despite being ruthlessly attacked for it still won easily
I think a % or two will be fine
20% is a whole different game but i paid more tax my last year of working than an english nurse would
You feel that in your heart its fine. I don’t
Yeah but WHY do you feel that way? This is what I am getting at.
The pilot. Its an easy way to explain. Same as the team you support. You cannot change it.
Its an emotional attachment. I have a deep love for Scotland. England is just between meh and blurgh
Because i love Scotland. I have a deep emotional attachment
Moley
Im sure you love your kids. Do you love your neighbour's kids the same?
Actually i think your wrong there argee on money. The SNP were elected on a tax raising manifesto and despite being ruthlessly attacked for it still won easily
I think a % or two will be fine
20% is a whole different game but i paid more tax my last year of working than an english nurse would
Again, like brexit, they’re happy until they start seeing the negatives and having to pay as well, it’ll all come down to what the plan is, and as stated a few times, it’s all hypothetical just now, no timelines, no costings, that will be the make or break for that 10% who will sway this vote.
Ok, so there's a fundamental difference. I could change my team very easily. I'd still keep an eye on the other one but I could switch allegiances no problem.
As for love, I definitely don't love a land mass or a culture. Not sure I love anything to be honest.
Maybe whisky, which is probably why I should stop posting 😉
The SNP were elected on a tax raising manifesto and despite being ruthlessly attacked for it still won easily
Tax raising manifesto? Not sure a promise to freeze income tax counts as a tax raising manifesto.
Nicola said
The Scottish National party has committed to a £2.5bn boost to frontline NHS spending, a freeze on income tax throughout the next parliament
As far as income tax goes there is little difference in UK and Scotland until after £43k. So I'm not surprised the majority who don't pay SNP higher rate taxes don't let it affect their vote.
Luckily the SNP 54.5% tax rate (income tax plus NI) between £43k and £50k is easily avoided.
Argee. We were happy to have tax raised.
Irc. I paid a bit more tax on 32000. Paid a bit more salery than an english nurse as well. Couple of hundred a year worse off.
The point is the attack based around tax raises got no traction. The people of sco3were happy to see tax raised. We are still a low tax economy
Im sure you love your kids. Do you love your neighbour’s kids the same?
I'm not sure that's particularly relevant, it's not really the same thing.
Because i love Scotland. I have a deep emotional attachment
I have a deep emotional attachment to Wales. But it's part of Britain, and I have emotional attachments to other places too, especially Finland. I find the localisation of affections to the active exclusion of other places quite strange and cliquey. Isn't this the definition of tribalism?
Like it or not you're part of British culture, you're part of what makes Britain what it is.
I have a deep emotional attachment to Wales. But it’s part of Britain, and I have emotional attachments to other places too, especially Finland. I find the localisation of affections to the active exclusion of other places quite strange and cliquey. Isn’t this the definition of tribalism?
Like it or not you’re part of British culture, you’re part of what makes Britain what it is.
Britain will still exist if scotland goes independent.
The point is the attack based around tax raises got no traction. The people of sco3were happy to see tax raised. We are still a low tax economy
It’s not an attack, it’s a fundamental part of any party trying to gain power, not many of them have made it with a tagline of ‘you’ll earn less under us’.
People will vote for what affects them more positively in most instances, it’s how folk vote for the trumps and boris’ of this world!
Molgrips. Its exactly the same thing
Argee
When the snp put tax raises in the manifesto they were attacked for it relentlessly in the press and by other political parties. Their vote was unnaffected
People voted for a party they knew would raise tax
Like it or not you’re part of British culture, you’re part of what makes Britain what it is.
There is no British culture.
I have no affinity to britain.
The people of Scotland happy about tax rises? Not the people paying the higher taxes. But as a matter of interest can you point to any news item during the campaign where any SNP spokesperson said "we will raise taxes"?
Here's what the SNP website said.
14. Freeze income tax rates and bands, and increase thresholds by a maximum of inflation, to keep money in people’s pockets.
https://www.snp.org/pledges2021/
Of course the net result of the SNP getting control of income tax was that their changes resulted in raising less money than they would have got under the previous system.
Your at it again molgrips. You cannot tell me what i feel is wrong. Its pretty offensive to try.
Like it or not you’re part of British culture, you’re part of what makes Britain what it is.
Should Scotland, England or Wales choose independence, we'd still be sharing the same land mass which constitutes Britain.
Not the people paying the higher taxes.
I'm one of them, and perfectly happy to do so.
So was i
"Your at it again molgrips. You cannot tell me what i feel is wrong. Its pretty offensive to try."
TJ has a point. If this was about sexuality, it could be classed as conversion therapy.
Your at it again molgrips. You cannot tell me what i feel is wrong. Its pretty offensive to try.
I'm really not.
There is no British culture.
I dispute that.
I'm sure if paying more tax makes you feel good the govt will take extra donations.
Though funnily enough the number of people paying extra tax is miniscule compared to the people who say they are happy to pay more tax.
https://www.taxjournal.com/articles/want-to-pay-more-tax-
What are you doing then, molgrips? People generally can't tell you why they feel how they feel but my best guess is they feel that way because it allows them to feel/be who they want to be/feel they are.
You are molgrips. You are telling me i am something that I dont agree with a dont feel
One thing being in Ireland has done is convinced me more than evet we need independence. Ireland has a contentment that has been lost in the uk
Whats British culture then?
Isn't it about what you experience in that place too? I lived and worked in Finland but I don't have any affection for it for loads of reasons which I won't go into now but suffice to say I was in a job where I was valued for being 'cheap labour' and was made to feel like a total outsider by pretty much everyone.
I know at least 4 higher rate tax payers who are happy to pay more and voted SNP knowing that it would mean higher taxes for them.
I think there is a British Culture there's next to nothing I can think of in British culture that says "Scotland" to me. I think of myself as Scottish and not as a subject of the United Kingdom.I see the two as equal but different.
Gordimhor
The tartan and shortbread Scottishness or as a pal of mine calls it " that Victorian crap"
Its nowt to do with Scotland really. Its all invented by victorias court
Whats British culture then?
Er, quite a difficult question to answer.
Isn’t it about what you experience in that place too?
I think it is almost entirely. That's why if you ask a question about living somewhere on here, you'll get answers ranging from 'it's shit' to 'it's amazing'.
People generally can’t tell you why they feel how they feel
It's worth thinking about why you feel a particular way though. I wish more people had done that during the Brexit campaign for example.
You claimed there was a British culture. But you cant say what it is
You are telling me i am something
I'm telling you you're British from a legal and technical standpoint. Now, you've said you don't FEEL British, which is fine, I'm just interested in why.
You claimed there was a British culture. But you cant say what it is
Not without preparing and writing a lengthy essay, no - and I don't have time for that. If you're looking for a one-liner then I don't think any definition of that sort is worth much.
I have told you. Scotland is my home. Its as simple as that. There is no such thing as legally British. I have a uk passport
The tartan and shortbread Scottishness or as a pal of mine calls it ” that Victorian crap”
@tj I agree with your friend, although I do have a kilt which I like. 😁
Maybe if we were all 'European', this tribal bhollyx would disappear?
molgrips is a bit of a british fascist, int he. 😆 Yer british whether ye like it or not. 😆 aye nae borr.
Tj:
Oh moley
Im an edinbugger not a soapdodger
I’m surprised you’re not a Leither. Leith didn’t become part of Edinburgh until 1920. It’s identity is quite distinct from the rest of the city.
Yes @tjagain
I live in Scotland as mentioned in this thread and a few others.
Born in England, mum's Scottish and I have relatives all over.
I'm british. Not terribly proud of how we've acted over the last few years but still british.
Ts Duncan. My memory is shit. No judgement. Its just interesting to see.who in this debate lives in Scotland.
If you feel british thats ok by me
Its something to consider in the debate. Those who think like you. National identity is complex on these islands
I have no affinity to britain.
You have no affinity to the nation you live in? Yet yearn to be part of the European Union?
Side note: Gotta love how Scots can be patriotic, but if you live in Englandshire and try to be patriotic, you're labelled a Xenophobe. Just saying
Feels like a bit of an unpleasant ganging-up going on in here.
You have no affinity to the nation you live in? Yet yearn to be part of the European Union?Side note: Gotta love how Scots can be patriotic, but if you live in Englandshire and try to be patriotic, you’re labelled a Xenophobe. Just saying
It's quite possible to see the benefits of iScotland without being 'patriotic', whatever that means.
For me it's very simple: the people of England don't vote the way I (and the majority of Scotland) vote. As such, I feel the interests of Scotland would be better served if Scotland's government were to be independent. That's it. There's no racism, and racism certainly isn't something I hear being bandied about as part of iScotland discussions (the way it often was as an unpleasant undertone in Brexit discussions).
In fact, most people I know who voted 'No' in 2014 did so precisely because they didn't want to leave the EU - and the government of the time was pushing this kind of thing:
This, for me, pretty much epitomises the potential benefit of an iScotland. If Scotland had had it's own say, we'd still be in the EU - because the votes of 5.5 million people wouldn't be drowned out by the votes of 55 million people south of the border.
I live in Scotland. Its my country and my home.
Kenneth. Its just an inability to understand from some on here which is why i try to explain .