Forum menu
🤣🤣🤣
It’s fairly simple. If you are arguing for independence then you need to provide a detailed budget covering the next 50 years.
I know you're being sarcastic but the same people arguing for Scottish Independence were the same ones criticising Brexit for not having a proper plan. Perhaps currency, fiscal, pension and monetary plans that could fit on the back of a proverbial fag packet aren't enough?
but the same people arguing for Scottish Independence were the same ones criticising Brexit for not having a proper plan
Some of the same people.
In the same way some who are arguing against Scottish Independence and demanding details were the ones who dived headlong into Brexit without a plan.
Sturgeon now saying that Scotalnd would not provide any weapons to Ukraine.
Has she not been reading the news? I think they need everything they can get!
To put the above in some context
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/06/30/nicola-sturgeons-snp-will-no-longer-send-money-ukraine-weapons/
Yeah, the Scottish government have seen money go from their existing budget to Ukraine for military spending. They now say that any further money should be decided by the Scottish government/parliament itself.
And the Welsh agree
From that Telegraph piece …
The Scottish Government said its £65 million would be used to help fund "sophisticated air defence systems and thousands of pieces of vital kit for Ukrainian soldiers."
"This further funding is to assist Ukrainian armed forces to fight Russian aggression and the unspeakable brutality being perpetrated.”
“We have agreed to providing funding on this occasion given the clear need to maximise the international effort to support Ukraine. However, we are clear that this must not be seen as any kind of precedent which leads to devolved budgets being used to help pay for clearly reserved policy areas.”
I know you’re being sarcastic but the same people arguing for Scottish Independence were the same ones criticising Brexit for not having a proper plan.
1) The published preparatory papers from the Scottish government at the last indie referendum went far beyond anything Brexit campaigning politicians offered at the EU referendum, and I suspect the same will be true at any future indie referendum.
2) After the EU referendum the Scottish government published papers about their proposed solutions to satisfying the UK wide mandate while minimising the negative effects on Scotland, including “numbers”. The UK gov has spent years now refusing to publish much of their findings, or even look into the effects of, the options the UK faced as it left the EU.
The SNPs and Greens will be ready and transparent come a referendum, there’s no reason to think otherwise.
This whole “look how unprepared the Brexit campaigners were” as an argument for not even having a vote ignores the basic fact that it’s not the same politicians, or even political parties, that are proposing independence. Not all politicians are the same, but of course it’s very much in the interests of certain politicians that we think of things in that way.
The published preparatory papers from the Scottish government at the last indie referendum went far beyond anything Brexit campaigning politicians offered at the EU referendum, and I suspect the same will try at any future indie referendums.
Was it enough? From following this argument last time it seemed that people pre-disposed to Yes thought it was, and vice versa.
You could disagree with their findings, or their data… but they set it out and published it to be debated on. Rather than deliberating not setting anything out so that any debate became like nailing multiple jellies to a plate.
Quite, and that's the difference between Tories and parties who actually try to act like a government.
The Sturgeon argument appears to be defence is a matter reserved to Westminster (and funds sit there too), and sending weapons feels like defence, therefore spending on such sits at Westminster not Hollyrood. Stop dipping our pockets Boris.
Did I get that right?
Quite, and that’s the difference between Tories and parties who actually try to act like a government.
As it happens, I didn’t agree with their case last time (no vote for me down here anyway) but I could read and understand what they were proposing. I suspect the same will happen next time (probably with me disagreeing again, not that it’s relevant). This is not the same politicians, and they don’t approach things in the same was as those that led the campaign to leave the EU.
As for shouting “you can’t leave” at people North of the border, I think that’s the best path to splitting the union.
IIRC at the last referendum, the SNP couldn't even say what currency they would adopt or how public debt with the UK(r) would be divided up. Almost everything was a deferred matter subject to negotiation. So surely you can understand my scepticism of where this magic money tree is coming from?
Not all politicians are the same
Westminster bad, Hollyrood good?
Don't be so naive.
A former SNP MP was jailed today for embezzlement. Aren't the police also investigating a much bigger SNP (alleged) fraud? What about the ferries debacle and the allegations of corruption? How is the education system? Many say the SNP has wrecked it in Scotland.
The only difference is that the SNP started with a relatively clean slate back when powers were devolved. As time goes on they will look just as bad (and good) as anyone else.
I scoff cake, are you living in Scotland? Not a loaded question in any way, just wondering.
A former SNP MP was jailed today for embezzlement
A former Tory one would have been given a Peerage
How is the education system? Many say the SNP has wrecked it in Scotland.
Can you add some details? Its an often trotted out line but ive yet to see anyone who has stated it (in social media) then go on to clarify why and with credible evidence.
How is the education system? Many say the SNP has wrecked it in Scotland.
Quality ≠ Quantity
Those figures only show that Scotland shifts more bodies (relatively) through the Tertiary education system. I think we both know that you can take someone barely literate these days through a relatively worthless degree course, for example.
Besides, the only real reason for these figures is that Tertiary education is IIRC either much cheaper or free in Scotland, and it's paid for with money borrowed by the UK as a whole.
I moved to Scotland in 2006 bringing my two degrees with me, so I guess I have contributed to that trend outlined in the National article. It's got f all to do with the 'success' of the SNP though.
Meanwhile my kids are watching Marvel films as part of their Nat 5 'English' education at the local High School...
Films are part of "English" lessons down here as well. My eldest went on to do both English Language and Film Studies as A levels... because the use of English in ye olde worlde books isn't the only way to engage with and learn about the language.
Im just appaled there is no talk of Bueller
Before you know it... they be made to study a play as part of their GCSE/Nat5... I mean... A PLAY... the chosen entertainment of the lower orders.
Part of or dominated by? Because my experience of English lessons at this school is there ain't many books involved.
Besides, the only real reason for these figures is that Tertiary education is IIRC either much cheaper or free in Scotland, and it’s paid for with money borrowed by the UK as a whole.
ScotGov subsidises education via balancing the books from the Barnet formula.
Because my experience of English lessons at this school is there ain’t many books involved.
Same here. "Books" and plays chosen based on there being suitable on screen versions to help get the pupils involved and invested. More watching (and then talking about) than reading. Drives me mad. I loved the books that were central to my English lessons. But, perhaps school is just, you know, different to when we were in our teens? We were educated in the past. To be honest, I enjoyed rewatching Baz Luhrmann's Romeo&Juliet with both of my kids... he stuck to Shakespeare's language, but the setting helped me relate... and if that's true for an old bloke like me, probably more true for the kids. The lockdown version done by National Theatre was more my thing... but they swapped the lines about between characters (to make the most of Tamsin Greig's undeniable gravitas), so the kids didn't watch that as part of their revision to avoid confusion.
But, yes, "English" lessons include watching stuff now.
Im just appaled there is no talk of Bueller
I'm told he's having the day off.
ScotGov subsidises education via balancing the books from the Barnet formula.
And where do you think that Scotland gets most of its budget from? It's from the UK treasury which has to issue gilts and bonds to cover any deficit.
Saw this on twitter
"f Scotland had always been independent & England wanted a union with the condition they take all our tax, take our oil, gas, £5 billion exports, renewable wind power & the English will decide how much money they give back to us. Would you vote for it? No. So why vote no in 2023?"
Britain decides... Not England. FFS
How about this: if Scotland were utterly bankrupt having spaffed all its money away, and England said they'd bail you out, giving you the opportunity to get rich as part of a global empire, how would you vote?
We need some balance to this argument, is there any folk on here who are in Scotland and in the orange order 😂
if Scotland were utterly bankrupt having spaffed all its money away, and England said they’d bail you out
A reminder...
The UK has often been involved in "bailing out" other countries (eg Ireland 2008/2010), and has also been on the receiving end of bail outs funded by other countries (eg IMF 1976).
Well played, Murdo Fraser, rangers fan and orange order aficionado 😂
Molgrips. No its England decides. We get the uk government england votes for. Scotland hasnt voted tory for 70 years. Nothing we do in Scotland gi es us any options for westminster.
Dominic Raab agrees
Molgrips. No its England decides. We get the uk government england votes for. Scotland hasnt voted tory for 70 years. Nothing we do in Scotland gi es us any options for westminster.
No you get the government that the UK decides, we all do. That's how it works. You have the same representation as everyone else in the UK. Being Scottish has nothing to do with it.
I'd avoid that line of reasoning if I were you it makes Yes supporters look like nationalistic arseholes.
No molgrips. We get tbe government england decides. We have no say. It mattets not who we vote for. We get the government england votes for
Pleade stop with the " all nationalusts are nazis" nonsense. Please accept that you do not know enough about Scottish polics to have an opinion
No you get the government that the UK decides, we all do. That’s how it works. You have the same representation as everyone else in the UK. Being Scottish has nothing to do with it.
Scotland hasn't voted the Tories in since 1955 yet here we are.
We get tbe government england decides. We have no say. It mattets not who we vote for. We get the government england votes for
Scotland hasn’t voted the Tories in since 1955 yet here we are.
These statements are only relevant if you think that Scotland is somehow not part of one big country called the UK and, as I said a couple of pages ago, you are never going to win over someone who sees it like that. To be fair to @molgrips, he doesn't have anything against Scotland per se he just doesn't like borders at all. Quite how he would feel if, say, Germany had won WW2 and we were all speaking German, or if we abolished all borders today, voted in a worlwide government and found we were all being forced to learn Chinese with all other cultures being extinguished, I don't know.
Quite how he would feel if, say, Germany had won WW2 and we were all speaking German, or if we abolished all borders today, voted in a worlwide government and found we were all being forced to learn Chinese with all other cultures being extinguished, I don’t know.
That's really not the same as the situation with Scotland. It's exactly this kind of emotive bollocks that spoils the entire debate.
A lot of people in Scotland don't like the current government. Well, I can sympathise - neither do I, nor do a lot of English, Welsh and Northern Irish people.
Scotland hasn’t voted the Tories in since 1955 yet here we are.
I haven't voted Tory since ever and yet here I am too.
Look - in my view it is legitimate to say "I don't like how the UK is run, I personally want out". When you start saying "Scotland this and Scotland that" that's what makes my skin crawl. I mean, for the last 300 years Scotland has been in the UK, just like Wales, Northumbria, Kent and all the rest. But some Scots are now evoking the worst kind of human sentiment to try and justify independence when you don't even need to.
Like I said earlier, I'm sympathetic - I might even be a supporter - but I cannot abide this kind of division of shared humanity. That's why I despise Brexit after all.
Please accept that you do not know enough about Scottish polics to have an opinion
Please accept that I DO know about humanity and history and that this is clearly not all about politics. It's the political part I am sympathetic towards.
I cannot abide this kind of division of shared humanity
Is it about “division” now though? An indie Scotland could work together with the rest of Europe… they are surrounded by countries working together to minimise borders and help people live, work and love together. Apart from one. Perhaps a smaller UK would follow them in that path, or it could just turn against Scotland, and everyone else… that’s not Scotland’s call… it’s the UK government’s call.
It won't come as a surprise Molgrips but, I don't agree.
Our shared humanity will remain whether Scotland votes for independence or not. What we're asserting is our belief that Scots(people who live in Scotland) know how to govern Scotland best and that we have a right to elect our own government.
Scots are now evoking the worst kind of human sentiment to try and justify independence when you don’t even need to.
I'd argue that now is the time we very much need to.
No molgrips. We get tbe government england decides. We have no say. It mattets not who we vote for. We get the government england votes for
You get the same vote as anyone living in England. So you get EXACTLY the same say as anyone living in England or Wales (if we ignore minor differences in constituency size).
As a collective or a nation (which is always a kind of fiction), you do have half a point though, but we could break off any arbitrary part of the UK (such as Manchester, or East Anglia) and use exactly the same argument.
In fact, Scotland enjoys an autonomy (thanks to devolution) that England doesn't. No English MP can vote on matters devolved to Hollyrood but Scottish MPs regularly get a say on matters that only pertain to England.
Much as I still consider Manchester my home city… it’s not a country. And it’s patronising to say you consider Scotland the same as a region of England. It really is not. I hope the people of Scotland vote to keep the union with England, but I think we need to change how the UK works to win them around. Just telling them they’re stuck with the status quo, and have no right to self determination beyond that of an English city or country, will move people towards a yes vote.
Scotland is somehow not part of one big country called the UK
it isn't a big country called the UK. It is a political union. Hence why you have NI, England, Wales and Scotland. We are all separate countries with Scots law being different from rGB and NI.
it isn’t a big country called the UK. It is a political union. Hence why you have NI, England, Wales and Scotland. We are all separate countries with Scots law being different from rGB and NI.
That's a semantic point open to several interpretations and I'm ready to accept that not everyone agrees with yours and mine - though it may come down to the courts having to settle it at some point.
Britain decides… Not England. FFS
Your premise is wrong.
Britain is England, England is London.
To be exact, The City of London.
Scots are now evoking the worst kind of human sentiment to try and justify independence when you don’t even need to.
There again is the "all nationalists are nazis"
Its obvious that you just do not understand what is actually happening in Scotland
Its not about getting away from anything and rspecially not just this government. Its about wanting to have a government that represents us and acts in our best interests. Its about being able to create policy that suits Scotland.
Its about self determination
Its NOT about hatred of others
It’s worth reflecting on words for a moment.
On face value at least, it’s the Scottish National Party, not the Scottish Nationalist Party, and in terms of their aims, they would be better described as nationists not nationalists.
Now they may be lying to everyone, and I’m sure some of them absolutely are nationalists, but their stated aim is to establish a self-governed nation, not to exclude everyone without 15 generations of Scots heritage.
The “it’s not where you’re from, it’s where we’re going” slogan is, if true, an excellent one. It’s inclusive, it’s anti-nationalist and it’s pro-nation.
So the question really comes down to do you believe them?
If you do, they are not just more palatable than UKIP, EDL, BNP or Reform UK, they are offering a completely different vision of Scotland’s future to the equivalent version of the UK’s future offered by those four.
if you don’t, then maybe they’re just another bunch of nationalists, the only remaining question is how swivel-eyed.
PS - technically the line was the one below - which is arguably even better. One still has to believe it and walk the talk of course
It's not where we came from that's important, it's where we're going together.
The “it’s not where you’re from, it’s where we’re going” slogan is, if true,
Its part of a quote from Bashir Ahmed the first muslim msp. He was born outside Scotland.
He was given a standing ovation
It shows clearly the difference in attitudes with English nationalism. Can ypu imagine this sentiment going down well in English nationalist gruops?
it isn't important where you come from, what matters is where we are going together as a nation".[4]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashir_Ahmad_(Sc
There again is the “all nationalists are nazis”
Its obvious that you just do not understand what is actually happening in Scotland
Listen. I am calling out that line of argument when I see it on here. There are good reasons to vote Yes, but that's not one of them. Do you understand what I'm saying?
we have a right to elect our own government
But you already do, just like I do.
No we dont molgrips. We have tory governments imposed on us. One tecent tory government got 15% of the vote in Scotland. Its not representative democracy
Yes molgrips i do understand your point but it is based on a false understanding of Scottish politics. Its irrelevant because the sentiment you opposed is also opposed by Scottish nationalism.
Molgrips - I'm still trying to work out what your obsession with this subject is (obsession maybe a bit strong, but judged by you being the most frequent poster on this not currently living in Scotland). Is it just that you are anti Scottish independence? Some of your posts sound a tiny bit sour grapes - you clearly have a lot in common with many pro Scottish independence (politically liberal, with a significant distaste for our tory overlords and the direction they are taking the UK) - is it that those north of the border are striving for something not realistically available to you? Or is it that when (if) Scotland becomes independent the centre of gravity of remainder of the UK will inevitably be even more SE England and tory voter centric and you see that as a bad thing for you and the rest of the UK? That you see us as effectively wanting to run away and leave you to it?
I wish I had the skills to articulate where I stand on this, unfortunately I do not. I agree hugely with molgrips. However, I believe that the country that I would like to live in would have very similar politics and values as Scotroutes, Tjagain and molgrips desire - there is little that separates us in that regard.
As molgrips says there is an appeal to Scottish independence. I would sooner we had a UK that worked for everyone’s best, but can understand those that feel an independent Scotland is the only way to achieve this in their lifetime. I am almost won over.
However, when the pro independence side continually paint a rosey picture of every scenario and dismiss any difficulties, my knee jerk reaction is to turn away.
[As I said, not well articulated.]
I thought that molgrips was quite clear that he abhors borders of any sort and that he therefore does not recognise the authority of the Scots people to conduct their own affairs.
However, when the pro independence side continually paint a rosey picture of every scenario and dismiss any difficulties
I don't think that anyone is realistically doing that.
Can I just say that this is a very interesting thread and I am learning a lot. (It is a shame this is a binary thing yes/no which means you have to pick a side)
Let's keep it nice, and not ruin it like the other political threads please?
Gauss
I get your point but its in part a perception created by a universally hostile media. It not whats said by the snp.
Molgrips. My point is you are seeing things that aren't there and then shhoting at them. The blood and soil nationalism you abhor is not a significant part of the wider independence movement and is not snp attitudes as the ahmed quote and reaction to it shows
Has anyone brought up the secret oil field under Glasgow yet? The one that David Cameron was keeping secret to undermine Scotland's economic prospects. I enjoyed arguing with taxi drivers about that one the last time round.
we have a right to elect our own government
But you already do, just like I do.
No we dont molgrips. We have tory governments imposed on us. One tecent tory government got 15% of the vote in Scotland. Its not representative democracy
Well, to my mind, you are both correct. The problem for me, with your argument tjagain, is when do you stop? Keep splitting up areas until they vote as you’d like? Because once you’ve got an independent Scotland, a large number within Scotland will feel unrepresented - it is how democracy works as far as I can see.
According to Wikipedia 25% of Scots voting in the last GE got exactly the national government they wanted.
(It is a shame this is a binary thing yes/no which means you have to pick a side)
Very much so. A UK government offering a federal approach is the non-binary option, but that isn't gathering any steam... because... we have a UK government (and their supporters) who just say "shut up, we have more important things to do".
I thought that molgrips was quite clear that he abhors borders of any sort and that he therefore does not recognise the authority of the Scots people to conduct their own affairs.
Well, in an ‘ideal’ World, that’s what I think.
I’m not even clear there is such a thing as ‘Scots people’, I think I have as much in common with some people from all corners of the World, than specific people that I work beside each day, for example.
I’m not even clear there is such a thing as ‘Scots people’, I think I have as much in common with some people from all corners of the World, than specific people that I work beside each day, for example.
Apologies. I was lazily using as shorthand for "the people who live in Scotland".
However, when the pro independence side continually paint a rosey picture of every scenario and dismiss any difficulties
I don’t think that anyone is realistically doing that.
I’m not sure, it is difficult, for me at least, to read what is being said, from a neutral perspective.
For example, I can see both sides of ‘we would like more detail of what we can expect’ and ‘they won’t be happy without a minutely detailed proposal, it’s just a distraction technique’ (words expressed more clearly,to that effect)
I think for the SNP, Scots people means people who reside in Scotland - see also a UKIP definition of British for compare and contrast purposes.
It may also include conceptually people who might reside in Scotland in the future.
As a Glasgow born, Glasgow educated resident of York, I don’t qualify on the first definition. I might on second, as might my English born wife and children.
That said, elder son went to his prom in a kilt last night. He has his view on who he is, possibly because Scots is just cooler than English. That said he’s also a Yorkshireman. Confused nationality / ethnicity is a good thing I think.
I’m not even clear there is such a thing as ‘Scots people’, I think I have as much in common with some people from all corners of the World, than specific people that I work beside each day, for example.
Apologies. I was lazily using as shorthand for “the people who live in Scotland”
Ah, okay.
I am one of the people of Scotland as was Bashir Ahmed. Its the people who make Scotland their home.
For example, I can see both sides of ‘we would like more detail of what we can expect’ and ‘they won’t be happy without a minutely detailed proposal
Indeed. I want to hear some good details on finaces especially. The issue is inionist attacks go unchallenged in the media and become percevied wisdom even if baseless. See the nonsense about not being allowed to use the pound last time. The unionists just ignore the fact that the pound is part owned by Scotland. The bank of england is the uk reseve back. Its division will have to be negotiated
Its the people who make Scotland their home.
And by extension, directly contribute to Scotland.
So Billy Connolly, probably yes for at least some of the year, Sean Connery (during his life obviously), maybe no. Discuss 😉
Another problem for me with voting Yes is that it’s very final, there’d be no going back. So, if swithering, I’d default to the status quo.
So Billy Connolly, probably yes for at least some of the year, Sean Connery (during his life obviously), maybe no. Discuss
No discussion necessary. Neither are going to be voting so they have an opinion, that's all.
if swithering, I’d default to the status quo.
There is no status quo. Events since 2014 should have made that clear.
Its division will have to be negotiated
😱 the potential difficulties with all these issues, are beyond me. I can understand for some, that these things are irrelevant and the end goal is all that matters, but…
I'm just concerned that it's going to dissolve into a farce like brexit.
And before anyone says anything about we'll do it better there's 2 sides to this one is the Snp and ones Westminster. Neither of which I'm a fan of.
The risks just seem to outway any benefits.
There's room for improvement granted but this just seems so drastic and irreversible