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Other than Americans who does? I may have to apologise to those in NI for referring to the UK as Britain occasionally but other than for rugby and football England in place of UK isn’t used to anywhere I socialise or read
So you're calling us liars (with plausible deniability)?
Do we now start talking about Scotshitters? After all we talk about brexishit with free abandon……
So you're calling us shit (with plausible deniability)?
You are a perfect example of what I was talking about in the forum behavior thread. You make snidey comments that are designed to piss people of but if anyone calls you out you just say, 'You're exaggerating.'
If it was a one off then pointing out that we're exaggerating would be fine. However, you do it on every single one of your posts. When you've got someone who does it on every post it's no longer exaggerating, it's just pointing out what you really mean.
The worst thing is that you often make valid points shrouded in a sneering condescending tone. Of course, as soon as someone responds to your point, instead of answering and actually debating the issue, you do a non-sequitur into another sneering condescending statement which may have a valid point in it but is designed to insult and dismiss instead of debate.
I engaged with you yesterday and basically gave you exactly what you want which I'm feeling a bit stupid about.
You are exactly what is wrong with this forum. You take pleasure in walking right up to the line and throwing stones. You're aim is not to discuss but to get people angry and shouty for your own amusement.
Edit to add: I know I'm playing the man here but if you look at their contributions over the last 155 pages you'll see that the game they are playing doesn't even have a ball.
I agree. At risk of playing the man its obvious from B&Ds language and posting style that his intent is to irritate and annoy and upset folk.
1) I assume now a mod has entered the thread to tell us how to refer to the majority voters for brexit as leavers or remainers instead of English (the people who gave us Boris and Brexit) this thread will be moderated equally. Or will it still be OK to pigeonhole anybody wanting away from the right wing majority voting neighbours as anti-English?
2) Still waiting for examples of any pro indy supporters with inflammatory rhetoric.
I feel like I should apologise to the mods for post anything at all on this thread.
2) Still waiting for examples of any pro indy supporters with inflammatory rhetoric.
If I was a remainer based in England or Wales I can definitely see how some of the comments I made yesterday could come across as being inflammatory. Constantly using you (even with my tongue in cheek disclaimer) would have wound me up if I was in their shoes.
However, as I said, I was getting wound up by the implication (intentional or not) that Scotland was the equivalent of just another region in Greater England rather than a country in its own right.
The problem is, it's really difficult to argue for independence without bringing up the fact that the majority of voters in England and Wales voted for Brexit and Johnson. Likewise, it's really difficult to argue against independence without implying (or just flat out stating) that Scotland is the equivalent of a region in England.
Careful use of language and maybe slightly thicker skins needed all round, I would say.
You are exactly what is wrong with this forum. You take pleasure in walking right up to the line and throwing stones. You’re aim is not to discuss but to get people angry and shouty for your own amusement.
So have you followed the new guidance from the mods and reported it, rather being dragged down to the same level?
Northwind
Full Member
argee
Full Memberpeople are starting to sneer at them the same as they sneer at the tories, i hear a lot of disgruntled stuff about the SNP focus at present
Well yes, unionists have always done that- SNP baaaad, nothing they do can ever be admitted to be any good and any mention of independence always gets “focus on the day job”. It’s just how they play the game.
These aren't unionists, they're folk who aren't too happy with the politics being played, and the changes being brought in by the SNP. I also hear a fair amount of negativity towards some of the members of the party, but that again is due to how long they've been in, and like the tories, they're pretty much unchallenged in Scotland, there's not many places you can predict the outcome with confidence, so they do take that for granted a bit.
As for Independence getting rid of them, who here honestly believes career politicians are going to move on to pastures new, or risk losing their seat with any shift away from the area of power?
So have you followed the new guidance from the mods and reported it, rather being dragged down to the same level?
Yes.
As for Independence getting rid of them, who here honestly believes career politicians are going to move on to pastures new, or risk losing their seat with any shift away from the area of power?
They may not have a choice. They still have to be elected and if the electorate don't like them they're out.
Assuming you're not trying to say the SNP is going to engineer it so that Scotland becomes a single party state post-independence?
As for Independence getting rid of them, who here honestly believes career politicians are going to move on to pastures new, or risk losing their seat with any shift away from the area of power?
Its not the politicians that will cease to exist but the party. The SNP is a much broader church than most parties from the urban socialists to the rural hunting shooting fishing lot. After independence the glue that holds the SNP together goes and it will fracture and cease to exist as the SNP.
After independence the glue that holds the SNP together goes and it will fracture and cease to exist as the SNP.
Existential problem of all single issue parties though really. From the perspective of someone from south of the border looking in, it appears that the SNP have lost some urgency compared to just a few years ago, they appear to have things sown up really, De facto control, a handily useless and corrupt govt at whom to point a finger occasionally, safe in the knowledge of almost overwhelming support come election time.
Why rock that boat?
I understand the SNP pretty well, have a couple of mates who are elected, they were a broader church than they are now, that's just the nature of covering devolution of powers, the Scottish Parliament, etc, and of course the newer breed of SNP politician coming through the ranks.
Anyway, i doubt IndyRef2 will happen any time soon, the tories are in a good position down here, Labour are in absolute disarray, which was helped in part by the rise of the SNP, labour went from having 40 or so MPs in Scotland 15 years ago to 1 as of now!
Or do you need FPTP explained to you again?
Are you saying that Scotland is the equivalent of just another region in England?
bruce - don't engage with those who are only here to cause upset and irritation is my advice
Argee - Sturgeon is on her last chance with regards to another referendum
If she does not get one held withing the timescale she has outlined her party will fracture and she will be out with a career ending in failure
There is a section of the independence movement that believes she wants to run scotland as a part of the UK and not as independent. personally I believe this is nonsense but there are those who believe it ad they are barely keeping their impatience in check. Most of them have kept to the line for now but if she does not get a referendum done then that will spill over in open warfare and she will be ousted.
And what happens if for a second time in just a short number of years Scots vote to remain in the Union, is that it?
I can't see the SNP surviving if they ask for and win or lose a referendum on independence, equally if they don't ask for one then in a few more years that's the end of them also.
And what happens if for a second time in just a short number of years Scots vote to remain in the Union, is that it?
I would say so yes and IMO thats the reason for Sturgeons caution
bruce – don’t engage with those who are only here to cause upset and irritation is my advice
As is often the case, I think there is a valid point there behind the tone. I think the question is, what makes Scotland so special?
It's true that London voted to Remain and for not-Johnson. Why should Scotland leave the Union but not London?
I think the obvious answer is that there's nothing special about Scotland. If London wanted to leave the Union that would be a valid choice as well. However, the fact that London doesn't want to consider leaving the Union shouldn't mean that Scotland shouldn't be allowed to consider leaving.
It might seem like Scottish Exceptionalism to want to leave the Union when individual English regions don't but I think part of the reason is that English regions generally still identify as English. Overall, I think the majority of Scots identify as Scottish, whether they support independence or not.
So what makes Scotland special? Absolutely nothing. However, the choices of individual English regions shouldn't force Scotland to accept the same course. Like it or not, there is a Scottish identity that is much stronger than the identity of any individual English region*.
*With the possible exception of Yorkshire 🙂
Also Bruce Scotland is a country with its own legal system and its own political system. London or english regions are not but if they want to go for independence nothing is stopping them
Its not the politicians that will cease to exist but the party. The SNP is a much broader church than most parties from the urban socialists to the rural hunting shooting fishing lot. After independence the glue that holds the SNP together goes and it will fracture and cease to exist as the SNP.
It would be a shame if/when that does to pass. For me the greatest strength of the SNP is that it is a truly centrist party, which Coes from it's diverse base. Most of the decisions it takes tend to be sensible, grown up & balanced compromises, not popularist decisions designed to only appease only the left/right.
Also Bruce Scotland is a country with its own legal system and its own political system.
Of course, and it's own education system. And it's own bank notes that are always fun to take to England.
It would be a shame if/when that does to pass. For me the greatest strength of the SNP is that it is a truly centrist party, which Coes from it’s diverse base. Most of the decisions it takes tend to be sensible, grown up & balanced compromises, not popularist decisions designed to only appease only the left/right.
I don't think that would come to an end with independence. In fact, I think the need to compromise and adopt sensible centrist policies would be increased post-independence. I doubt any single party would be able to gain a majority so power sharing would be the norm.
It would be a shame if/when that does to pass. For me the greatest strength of the SNP is that it is a truly centrist party,
Hmmmm - the trouble is its support ranges from left of labour to centre of tory - those forces will be too great to survive post independence
Its like you had Corbyn to Heseltine in the same party
I thik a post independence scotland would see a huge realignment in parties - remember its a prioportional system here
From left to right
A small hard left group consisting of the remnants of the various hard left groups we have had plus the left of labour and maybe a few from the left of the SNP
A centre left group which is the rest of the labour party plus the urban left part of the SNP
LIb dems in the centrish but remaining small.
Centre right group of the left of the tories plus th eright of the SNP
hard right party of uionists and brexiteers from the right of the tory party
I think all our parties bar the lib dems and greens will split up
Hmmmm – the trouble is its support ranges from left of labour to centre of tory – those forces will be too great to survive post independence
Its like you had Corbyn to Heseltine in the same party
Which is exactly my point of it being it's major strength! The decision makers' hasve to factor this wide base into their decision making, the result being the decisions are, on the whole considered & balanced.
Generally, in my opinion, this makes for better quality of politics than what we see in Westminster and what makes the SNP appealing to so much of the electorate.
Its really not a strength IMO
Take one example - raptor killings. No action was taken because of Fergus Ewing. this is despite the overwhelming evidence and public desire to deal with this. Ewing was right wing and blocked a much needed and desired policy. the SNP have finally got rid of him but he had a big powerbase in the rural community so it took a decade to be shot of him.
these gulfs are simply too large to bridge in many cases and leads to the party trying to be all things to everyone but results in paralysis and poor policy making
Which is exactly my point of it being it’s major strength! The decision makers’ hasve to factor this wide base into their decision making, the result being the decisions are, on the whole considered & balanced.
Sure, but you don't need the SNP to achieve that. Most European countries use some form of Proportional representation so that considered and balanced outcomes are achieved by not having a single party with the majority of votes.
Normally the governing party has to not only keep its own members on board but also convince two or three (or even more) parties to vote with them.
FPTP is no longer fit for purpose (if it ever was).
Or do you need FPTP explained to you again?
Do you need the RIGHT WING majority in parliament explained to you?
(Sorry TJ 😃, I will rubber him now.)
I was thinking earlier about the works of one of my favourite authors. The books are deeply layered but one of the most moving aspects for me is that they are a declaration of his hope for humanity, what he thinks we could be. And I recognise the vision he creates (either consciously or not) as being profoundly British. I'm sure you lot will have realised I am talking about Iain Banks, who was Scottish.
The point is that, for all the talk of individualism, I think the Scots, English and Welsh* are much closer to each other than they realise and that we really do have a fundamentally British identity much more than we do as individual nations.
* I don't actually know anyone from Northern Ireland.
FPTP is no longer fit for purpose
I'm firmly of the belief that FPTP is the root of most of our problems. It really ****s up representation and consequently allows the system to be heavily manipulated.
I would definitely agree with Iain Banks' views on Scottish Independence:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/may/17/scottish-independence-parties
Nevertheless, I would still hope that in the unlikely event I live as long as my dad – who died when he was 91 – then I shall die in an independent Scotland on the best possible terms with its big English neighbour.
More from the great man here:
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2011/aug/28/scottish-independence-snp-iain-banks
I voted Green, Scottish Socialist party, Lib Dem or SNP, mostly as protest votes, but, gradually – and with rather more hope – increasingly for the SNP. Not because I was particularly nationalistic – like a lot of people on the left I've always been suspicious of the populist, divisive appeal of nationalism – but because the SNP's policies were more progressive, more left wing, more fair, in the end, compared to any other party with a realistic chance of achieving power. Labour stopped being Labour, so I became a pragmatic voter for the SNP.
I would hope that those who don't feel that Scotland (or Wales or NI) and the people of Scotland (or Wales or NI) do not get the recognition they deserve have the same empathy for other minority groups and how they get treated and who they get lumped in with.
I flagged a clear case of homophobia the other day but no one had a word to say about that.
Works both ways, you know.
@ThePilot I do try to jump in wherever I can!
More from the great man
And there are many people who think that view is widespread amongst the whole UK - that we need a new centre party. Lots of non-Scots say they would vote SNP if they could.
Do you still recognise the SNP Iain Banks describes above @BruceWee. I'm a member and activist. I feel that they're currently drifting a bit to the right. However I am here for independence so I can leave as soon as it's won which gives strength to TJA argument that the party will fracture after indy is won.
Appreciate it, @molgrips
Shouldn't be down to one person anyway.
It's just if you're (the general you) is going to be sensitive about one thing, it's only right that you at least try to be sensitive about another thing. That my opinion anyway for what it's worth! 🙂
And I recognise the vision he creates (either consciously or not) as being profoundly British. I’m sure you lot will have realised I am talking about Iain Banks, who was Scottish.
Eh? A very scottish author writing about things that happened in Scotland to Scots people. I see nothing profoundly british about him at all. But then I see no "british" identity anymore bar geographical
would you like to expolain what is "profoundly british" about him given that to me he is very Scottish
I am here for independence so I can leave as soon as it’s won
Guess why we've not had another Indyref?
A very scottish author writing about things that happened in Scotland to Scots people
I'm talking about the Culture novels, I don't think Scotland is that technologically advanced yet 🙂
I am not sure I should be de-railing this thread with a literary discussion though, unless anyone else is interested?
But then I see no “british” identity anymore bar geographical
That's fascinating, because it's very obvious to me. Out of interest have you ever lived outside the UK? Inside we can often not see the wood for the trees.
Ah - thats him writing as Iain M Banks hence the confusion
I see the culture novels as not British either. If anything the politics are closer to the european social democratic consensus than anything that has come out of Westminster and I fail to see how you reach that conclusion he is "very british" - its not US style SF for sure but its not UK style society either. Far more European mainstream that british to me
Out of interest have you ever lived outside the UK? Inside we can often not see the wood for the trees.
Yes - around 6 years of my life. europe, antipodes, south america
So what is this "British Identity?" you see.
I flagged a clear case of homophobia the other day but no one had a word to say about that.
Works both ways, you know.
I had a look back through the thread but I couldn't see where you flagged the homophobia. I didn't notice anything I thought was homophobic at the time. If I had I would have definitely said something/reported it.
You know what I'm not sure I want to get into another bunfight.
I remember that post. Effectively ( I cannot remember the words) using homosexuality as an insult
Molgrips - have you ever lived in Scotland? I do really feel you do not understand the different social compact here
Do you still recognise the SNP Iain Banks describes above
At it's core, yes. Certainly when compared to the mainstream UK parties.
I wouldn't really class myself as an SNP supporter though. They are more of a vehicle for independence. I'm sure they'll explode into 8 different parties the day after a successful vote.
I remember that post. Effectively ( I cannot remember the words) using homosexuality as an insult
The last homophobia I remember on this thread was someone 'joking' that NS was a closeted homosexual but that was a good while ago. I can't remember if I reported or not but I definitely called it out. It was another one of those 'plausible deniability' type comments by one of the usual wind up merchants.
Anyway. Five years this thread has been going and the SNP show no signs of progressing the issue any time soon so I don't know why folk are suddenly getting all worked up about it.
I blame the arsehole who resurrected the thread after a two month hiatus.
I don’t know why folk are suddenly getting all worked up about it.
Personally, I'm here because if I wasn't I'd be obsessively refreshing the Ukraine thread waiting for someone to post something that'll make everything OK again.
This is marginally better than that.
BruceWee Full Member
I wouldn’t really class myself as an SNP supporter though. They are more of a vehicle for independence. I’m sure they’ll explode into 8 different parties the day after a successful vote.
Power can be a heck of a glue, until the recent purges it managed to hold the very different wings of the Conservative party together for example. While the dissolution of the SNP (in its current form) is one potential outcome of independence I'm not sure I'd bet on it against the alternative (them staying together "for the sake of the majority", with party politics somewhat being overshadowed by the factional politics within the ruling part).
@Scotroutes asked myself that question and came up with an answer SNP for all it's faults remains the best political party to campaign for independence. It needs to change so staying in it to try to make the change happen. It's a sair fecht but I'm no quitting
Molgrips – have you ever lived in Scotland? I do really feel you do not understand the different social compact here
Since I pretty much agree with most of what molgrips says on this thread, I'll give my 2p worth:
I was born and lived in Cardiff for my first 18 years, then 5 years in Birmingham and 5 years in London, have been followed by over 30 years in Edinburgh. People in all these places are generally much the same. I'd say that there's more in common between the average person in Glasgow and Cardiff, than Glasgow and Edinburgh. We all have much more in common than separates us. There is little difference in the 'social compact' in my experience.
I’d say that there’s more in common between the average person in Glasgow and Cardiff, than Glasgow and Edinburgh.
My experience of living in different parts of the UK (but not Scotland) is similar. In cities and large towns there is not a huge difference except in terms of socio-economic class. In the more remote parts of Scotland I think things are probably different, but that is probably because of the remoteness. That said, it is still real. Life in parts of rural Wales has a somewhat different flavour but it's not any more dramatic than in rural England.
Not my experience at all. I see a very clear difference politically and socially - from the fact that Scotland has not voted for the tories as the largest party for 60 years to the stopping of deportations in Glasgow, to the voting in of an avowed tax raising government etc etc
I do not know enough about Wales to comment on that - my above comments refer to Enghland
I am not sure I should be de-railing this thread with a literary discussion though, unless anyone else is interested?
I think for the point you're trying to make, Iain Banks is a poor example. I think he's a product of Scotland, he was a supporter of Scottish independence (sharing the concerns about nationalism I think the majority of independence supporters have), and even though he wrote a few books based in England, they almost always had Scottish protagonists.
Claiming him for the UK as a whole feels kind of like when Scottish athletes start winning they graduate from being Scottish to being British 🙂
I think a better example of a British product would be 2000AD. The tone and style of the writers was definitely a product of Britain as a whole and the British Invasion that basically saved the American comic industry included writers from every nation in the UK.
However, I think these writers were a product of a time before the really serious cracks formed in the Union. Thatcherism was the real beginning of the independence movement as a force.
I'm not saying that we don't still have a lot in common in terms of culture, sense of humour, etc. I would say that Thatcherism, followed by Blair's war, followed by Brexit, followed by Johnson is just a steady increase in the differences between how our countries vote.
They are amplified by FPTP but I honestly see no feasible route to fixing this for the UK as a whole while there is a very obvious and attainable route for Scotland to fix this on it's own.
Power can be a heck of a glue, until the recent purges it managed to hold the very different wings of the Conservative party together for example. While the dissolution of the SNP (in its current form) is one potential outcome of independence I’m not sure I’d bet on it against the alternative (them staying together “for the sake of the majority”, with party politics somewhat being overshadowed by the factional politics within the ruling part).
But, if there is a vote in favour of Indy, once the other parties have accepted that they'll actually be able to start thinking what they stand for, how to differentiate from the old Westminster parties and reinvent themselves etc. I doubt there would actually be one dominant party to start with but rather smaller parties working together cooperatively which is actually what most people I speak to (in Scotland) think is good for politics. Its a more European style of politics driven by consensus and less by party whips. I'm not sure if the SNP would implode, or break into factions but certainly, it would need to come up with differentiators to succeed. Currently, it does well not just because of Indy, but because it is not a Westminster party and the shit show there. In a post Indy world they all have that claim.
But I can see a lot of Britishness in those books, as compared to the rest of the world. If you want to compare with English authors then you may well find differences but if you compare with the rest of the world you might well find more similarities.
An analogy for you - if you compare a Pink Lady apple with a Granny Smith you will find plenty of differences. But if you compare them both with a banana suddenly they look pretty similar.
Not my experience at all. I see a very clear difference politically and socially – from the fact that Scotland has not voted for the tories as the largest party for 60 years to the stopping of deportations in Glasgow, to the voting in of an avowed tax raising government etc etc
But once again you are averaging out English people.
None of the arguments for independence wash, except for the pragmatic desire to get a political system you like. Which, sadly, is valid.
They are amplified by FPTP but I honestly see no feasible route to fixing this for the UK as a whole while there is a very obvious and attainable route for Scotland to fix this on it’s own.
Bruce - I think you are wrong on this. I think its completely fixable. The issue is it needs the rUK (voting populations) to WANT to fix it. I don't detect the desire from politicians or population to reform in order to prevent the breakup of the Union. I really don't understand why not.
<But I can see a lot of Britishness in those books,
Fair enough, although having done some writing, one thing I can say is that people project a lot of their own ideas into books. It's entirely possible for two people to read the same work in completely different ways.
You might find a lot of Britishness in Iain Banks books but I don't think they can be objectively described as quintessentially British.
Unlike 2000AD 🙂
But I can see a lot of Britishness in those books, as compared to the rest of the world.
In what way? Please explain because I do not see it at all.
Edit - I see it much closer to the russian and east european SF of the 70s and 80s. there was tbhe "new wave" of SF in britain in the 60s which moved awy from the rocketships and cowboys and indians in space to a more thoughtful examination of society but I do not even see Banks books in that light
None of the arguments for independence wash,
Which arguements do not wash? I am sure you mean in your opinion because in my opinion many of them do
How are those carrots TJ?
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Do you think now is the time for a referendum Colin?
I blame the arsehole who resurrected the thread after a two month hiatus.
😀
I can’t even partially quote that scene now for fear of being labelled by the bickerati.
I didn't know that a second Independent Referendum had actually been agreed, how do you delay something that isn't even planned yet?
Promised by the end of '23. Blackford is a fud
If Sturgeon disnae get one organised scotroutes will be round to have a stern word 😉
I was discussing independence with someone on Twitter who was adamant that Russia invading the Ukraine changed everything and no way could Scotland get independence, ever.
They flounced off when I reminded them that Ireland obtained its independence shortly after WW1 while India/****stan did the same after WW2.
I reminded them that Ireland obtained its independence shortly after WW1
So did Finland and I think Poland.
I reminded them that Ireland obtained its independence shortly after WW1
Nope Irish free state 1922
Republic declared 1949.
Since most folk now accept 1921 as the start of the Republic (including celebrating it last year), I'm happy with me statement, but to be totally correct I guess we've to actual 'split' the difference go with 1931.
Not sure what this has to do with Scottish independence though, Ireland is ever so slightly different, same with India and ****stan, and we're in an extremely different time now.
Would be useful if the SNP actually gave the plan on how they were going to get and manage a second referendum, as well as the prospectus for what the actual benefits would be for Scotland and its population.
It would also be prudent for them to pick the right time, i get the feeling from speaking to friends and family up the road and recent visits that the SNP and Scottish Parliament in whole isn't as lauded as it once was, lots of negativity over recent decisions and policies, the last referendum was meant to be pretty much 55/45 for independence beforehand, and ended in disaster for them, they need to factor in a lot before using up their last chance!
Do you think now is the time for a referendum Colin?
Do I believe that a Scotland would have better off being in the EU? Yes.
Do I believe that Scotland would be better off rejoining the EU asap? Yes.
Do I believe that an independent Scotland would have handled the Covid pandemic better? Yes.
Do I believe that an independent Scotland would be better placed to implement policies to improve our exit from this pandemic? Yes.
Do I believe that an independent Scotland would have less corruption in government? Yes.
Do I believe that an independent Scotland would be accepting more than 50 refugees from a war-torn country? Yes.
At what point do we have to accept the fact that democracy does not go to sleep during crises and that control over our own resources and destiny would be better than being tied to a corrupt and self-serving UK government?
Do I believe that Nicola Sturgeon has any intention of risking a loss of control as a result of a Yes vote? No.
That pretty much covered the whole lot. Can we just close the tread now please.
Why would you want the thread closed, it's about asking questions, not blindly following empty statements, that is why any prospectus from the Scottish Parliament is key, joining the EU isn't a simple fill in the form process, especially at present when other countries are looking for membership and key EU members are struggling with the funding.
When they do release it, and it is audited and checked by independent sources, then there will be a bit more to either support independence, or the status quo, as for corruption, that happens with power and position, we won't know until it happens unfortunately, same that happens the world over.
Do I believe that an independent Scotland would have less corruption in government? Yes.
What? The man your team would have made the president of an independent Scotland has been busy taking Russian money for years. Less corrupt? Aye right.
Been a wee while since he was leader of the SNP...While a brutal Babbage I am not sure he has quite plumbed the depths that the neighbours first choice has either. And you could also look at how support for him vanished after the Russian TV and the sexual assault allegations. Neither of those seem to have hindered Boris.
@argee If by independent you mean unbiased or without an association to one side or the other I would say there are none. The indepence issue goes back many times longer than the 15 years the snp have been in power. So on that basis I would look for a wide range of views from all sides.
For me it's this I want to be governed by a government that has all the powers of a modern nation-state and that is elected by people living in Scotland.
Also I think the Scottish Government l, not the Parliament would produce any "prospectus" on independence. That was the case in 2014
Yeah, government (SNP/Greens) rather than parliament, but they need to provide real proof that independence would be beneficial for the people in Scotland, even more so now than in 2014, as the UK, and the World has changed significantly since then, and not in a good way unfortunately.
but they need to provide real proof that independence would be beneficial for the people in Scotland
Why doesn't the UK government have to produce proof that maintaining the Union would be beneficial for the people in Scotland?
If anything, Indy with a prospect of far closer ties to the EU (even if Scotland doesn't end up with full EU membership) is far more of a known outcome compared to whatever magical unicorn journey the UK government plans to take the country on.
Independence itself is in national terms really just us picking up the tool box. It's what we do with it that will shape the future Scotland.
So no prospectus can be definitive. I would agree though that some kind of document for the very early stages could be produced. In my opinion that should be about our constitution and the institutions of national and local government as well as currency and rejoining the EU etc