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the homogeneous “England” so hated
I do wish you would stop with this canard. Its just not so at all that hatred of of England is there across the vast majority of the independence movement
Sturgeon has to get an indpendence vote organised shortly or her party will run out of patience
The EU exit has convinced me even more (here in England) that we would be stronger together, and how promises of money and funding made to deliver votes don’t deliver when it matters.
So you need us to stop England imploding because of Brexit?
You lot voted for Brexit, take responsibility for your actions. I see no reason whatsoever why Scotland has to help with your FU, nor why we should suffer from YOUR choice of Govt.
Its just not so at all that hatred of of England is there across the vast majority of the independence movement
You lot voted for Brexit, take responsibility for your actions. I see no reason whatsoever why Scotland has to help with your FU, nor why we should suffer from YOUR choice of Govt.
Slight disgruntlement then? A bit miffed? Still homogenised othering.
I'm assuming big_n_soft that you're also a Leaver, based on your solid Unionist views, you're a star, great choice, thanks...
Still homogenised othering.
Interesting use of language. 'Othering' typically suggests that we are trying to make you (English people) less than human.
As a population English people vote differently to Scots. I don't think that's in question.
Personally I haven't seen anyone say anything to suggest that we see English people as sub-human. If you have then you should report it to the mods. It's a serious accusation and the type of thing we should be trying to get rid of in the forum.
If you're just using it to score points then shame on you.
I think scottish indy is inevitable in some form now, brexit showed how different england & scotland are, tehcnically (johnson's hard) brexit makes it harder, but referenda are about heart not head
Tinfoil hat time: i think putin was aware of this too and hes quite happy with brexit--> indy--> nuclear subs leaving top of UK
Othering’ typically suggests that we are trying to make you (English people) less than human.
No it doesn't, you are just extrapolating to close the point down
Anyone who thinks that the population of England is a homogeneous blob is clearly trying to create a difference in order to create division
The way the electorate vote differently is distorted mainly by the presence of a nationalist party and it's success in creating and now in power funding a narrative of a difference between Scots and rUK all the while Scotland is exporting senior politicians and prime ministers to the UK parliament they blame for their woes
No it doesn’t, you are just extrapolating to close the point down
OK, what is 'othering' to you?
From wikipedia:
The term Othering describes the reductive action of labelling and defining a person as a subaltern native, as someone who belongs to the socially subordinate category of the Other. The practice of Othering excludes persons who do not fit the norm of the social group, which is a version of the Self;[7] likewise, in human geography, the practice of othering persons means to exclude and displace them from the social group to the margins of society, where mainstream social norms do not apply to them, for being the Other.[8]
It's not a term to be just thrown around, it's a serious accusation.
Is it othering to say 'I feel more European than British'?
Given the choice most Scots would rather not be forced to choose between Europe and Britain but thanks to the majority of voters in England and Wales, we have been forced to choose.
If saying I'd rather be European than British is othering towards English people, how is saying I'd rather be British than European not othering towards Europeans?
Like I said, if you are throwing that term around just to score points it's really not on.
The chapter on the UK in Tim Marshalls The Power of Geography makes some very interesting points on Scottish independence,the book has a whole is well worth a read. I don't think that a Tory government is going to sanction another referendum, and holding a unilateral referendum would be massively problematic (Spain being a good example of this)
There are substantial differences all across the UK, the homogeneous “England” so hated doesn’t exist except in the minds of those who are trying to carve out a separate identity so as not to be tainted by decisions they don’t like
A good point.
Personally I haven’t seen anyone say anything to suggest that we see English people as sub-human
That's a false extrapolation. No-one's suggesting the Scottish 'hate' the English or consider them sub-human. It's more subtle and insiduous than that (as it usually is when it comes to nationalism). There is a strong 'they aren't like us' vibe on this very page, like so:
You lot voted for Brexit, take responsibility for your actions.
Why would you possibly lump all English together 'as a population' ? That makes no sense whatsoever and it's precisely this that gets English (and Welsh) backs up. How dare you accuse me of endorsing Brexit, just because some other people who happen to live here did? How am I bound to some Brexiteer in Lincolnshire by association and you are somehow free? It's ludicrous. A lot of Scottish people voted for Brexit too, you know. And a lot of English voted against it.
There is a strong ‘they aren’t like us’ vibe on this very page
Until Scotland was forced into making a choice between Europe and Britain, the question of whether Scotland and England were alike was academic.
Now it is no longer academic. English and Welsh voters (no individual English or Welsh person but the voting population as a whole so no need to 'How dare you!?' me) have made us (the Scottish voting population, not an individual Scot) pick a side.
So I'll repeat my question. Now that you have forced us to pick between Europe and Britain, how is it othering to say 'I choose Europe'?
Now that you have forced us to pick between Europe and Britain
You mean "now that Scotland has been forced to pick..."
This is what I mean about inflammatory language and anti-English sentiment.
Until Scotland was forced into making a choice between Europe and Britain
You aren't forced, I suggest you look back a few pages, the whole should Scotland join the EU discussion was hardly conclusive.
If you want a hard border between iS and rUK then EU membership is the best way to achieve it
If you want a hard border between iS and rUK then EU membership is the best way to achieve it
And?.........
You mean “now that Scotland has been forced to pick…”
This is what I mean about inflammatory language and anti-English sentiment.
You would prefer it if I said that Scotland was forced to pick because of some unknown phenomena?
Why? It might be inflammatory but it is also the most accurate way of describing the situation. You want me to adjust my language to spare your (as in the English and Welsh voting populations, not you individually) blushes but if you're embarrassed by it then it suggests you (as in the English and Welsh voting populations, not you individually) have something to be embarrassed about.
As I said, I'm pro-European. I don't believe I'm anti-English but if by your definition you can't be pro-European without being anti-English then there's not much I can do about it.
You would prefer it if I said that Scotland was forced to pick because of some unknown phenomena?
No, I want you to stop using the word 'you' in this context.
but if you’re embarrassed by it then it suggests you (as in the English and Welsh voting populations, not you individually) have something to be embarrassed about.
Of course, I would imagine most remain voters are utterly embarrassed and humiliated by this. I'm not sure what your line of reasoning is here.
And?………
Buy land next to the border motorways
I don’t believe I’m anti-English
Yeah, see, the use of this 'us vs them' language and argument is implicitly anti-English by virtue of you not being English. Don't you see?
As I said, I’m pro-European. I don’t believe I’m anti-English but if by your definition you can’t be pro-European without being anti-English then there’s not much I can do about it.
More pro EU government
And anti primacy of Westminster government
You want to reclaim sovereignty from one to give (back) to the other
Being pro-European is a statement of geography and location
You aren’t forced,
Yes we were.
I suggest you look back a few pages, the whole should Scotland join the EU discussion was hardly conclusive.
That's true. However, there is a general consensus within Scotland that the current suicidal pursuit of sovereignty that England and Wales are hell bent on is a bad idea and forming closer ties with Europe is infinitely preferable.
If you want a hard border between iS and rUK then EU membership is the best way to achieve it
Well, that's up to you (as in the English and Welsh voting populations, not you individually).
You lot voted for Brexit, take responsibility for your actions. I see no reason whatsoever why Scotland has to help with your FU, nor why we should suffer from YOUR choice of Govt.
That's the kind of "lumping all the English together" twaddle that causes a lot of useless aggravation on here, but hey, I'm outnumbered by idiots down here, I get that.
Back to the points I was making that got overlooked in the rush to slap down the English bloke 😉 :
1) if I was in Scotland, I could be persuaded to vote for independence
2) Brexit has shown how hard it is to untangle from unions, that might need to be born in mind if the SNP start making it sound a piece of cake
3) any financial promises made to encourage people to vote for independence are not worth the bus they were written on after the vote
4) still seeing and hearing independence being an easy way back into the EU. It probably won't be that easy either.
No, I want you to stop using the word ‘you’ in this context.
That's why I've started adding (as in the English and Welsh voting populations, not you individually) to every reference to 'you' so that there can be no confusion.
Yeah, see, the use of this ‘us vs them’ language and argument is implicitly anti-English by virtue of you not being English. Don’t you see?
Well, like I said, we've been forced into choosing. I've chosen. Sorry if you don't like my choice but I prefer Europe to England and Wales.
You want to reclaim sovereignty from one to give (back) to the other
So I was right.
Didn't you understand what you were voting for?
And to use my often quoted comment:
"Brexit isn't the destination it's the vehicle"
In this case Brexit is the vehicle WE'RE using for independence.
Sorry if you don’t like my choice but I prefer Europe to England and Wales.
It's nothing to do with that. I'm trying to point out why your posts seem anti-English. You're lumping every English person in with Brexiters, talking as if somehow this shit-show is every English person's fault and responsibility.
That’s why I’ve started adding (as in the English and Welsh voting populations, not you individually) to every reference to ‘you’ so that there can be no confusion.
That's no better, I'm a member of the English and Welsh voting population. I'm in no way responsible for any of this. Why not just say 'Brexit has forced this' instead of making it personal? The reasons for Brexit are long and complex, and involve lots of individual actors, and people voted either way for a whole host of different reasons. It does no-one any favours at all to generalise like this. In short, do better with your language or face questions as to why you are choosing the words you do.
I think scottish indy is inevitable in some form now
having seen the issues that Brexit has caused (not least with respect to borders) I can see appetite for an Indy vote slipping away if I'm honest. I don't see Sturgeon being that vocal in her demands for one, seems like the SNP are phoning it in at the moment. And why wouldn't they? They've got everything neatly tied up just so.
What year is the SNP proposing for a new binding referendum? Announcement within weeks apparently
My point was, that to anyone with half an ounce of sense in the indy campaign - proposing a referendum and actually expecting day 1 of "freedom" to begin are a rather large distance apart. The Conservative policy to hold a referendum was announced in Jan 2013 with the European Union Referendum Bill tabled at Westminster in May 2015, and the referendum a year later depending how you define day 1 outside the EU it would be either 31st Jan 2020, 1st Jan 2021 (customs union) so somewhere between 5.5 and 8 yrs depending when you count the start and end. That's to end a union of 40 years with a clear mechanism to terminate it rather than one of 400 odd years that has no simple break clause with fixed timelines etc, and where massive amounts of our systems are entwined. There's nobody credible really believes we could be "out" in a short time period. They may not admit that as its not part of their negotiating position, but to be jumping on an oil price boom? it will probably have dropped and boomed again at least once before anyone has a Scottish passport.
Well said on Brexit, @molgrips.
I'm Welsh, live in Scotland (don't plan to vote in Indyref2 if it happens while I'm still here because I plan to leave) and voted Remain which just goes to show what utter nonsense intheborders is talking.
No-one’s suggesting the Scottish ‘hate’ the English or consider them sub-human.
Big and daft has said exactly that.
Yeah, see, the use of this ‘us vs them’ language and argument is implicitly anti-English by virtue of you not being English. Don’t you see?
It really is not at all Molgrips
I'm with molgrips on this - interesting that after recent threads and discussions some have stepped back from what can come across as "anti-English" language, intentional or not, and others have stepped up.
I'd hope that you could support your own "nation" without being "anti" another.
There is no anti english sentiment expressed at all that I have seen. Its actually quite offensive to be continually falsely accused of being anti english.
Please quote a single pejorative anti english post
You want to reclaim sovereignty from one to give (back) to the other
You do realise that in the EU sovereignty is pooled and everyone gets a say whereas in the UK Scotland has relinquished its sovereignty entirely and has no say at all
The idea that Scotland would be losing sovereignty is bogus. iScotland would be gaining sovereignty that it does not have right now and would have far more say in the running of the EU than it does in the UK
It’s nothing to do with that. I’m trying to point out why your posts seem anti-English. You’re lumping every English person in with Brexiters, talking as if somehow this shit-show is every English person’s fault and responsibility.
That’s no better, I’m a member of the English and Welsh voting population. I’m in no way responsible for any of this. Why not just say ‘Brexit has forced this’ instead of making it personal? The reasons for Brexit are long and complex, and involve lots of individual actors, and people voted either way for a whole host of different reasons. It does no-one any favours at all to generalise like this. In short, do better with your language or face questions as to why you are choosing the words you do.
I'm really not. I entirely understand that almost half of voters voted against Brexit and that probably more than half would vote against Brexit if the vote was held today.
However, you also have to look closely at the language you are using. I am trying to assert that I do not want to be associated with England and Wales anymore. You are saying this is invalid. You are saying it is anti-English. You are saying it is othering.
Just by saying I don't want to be associated with the referendum results and the country that elected Boris ****ing Johnson you accuse me of what's getting very close to bigotry.
I'll watch my language. I'd appreciate it if you would do the same.
I’d hope that you could support your own “nation” without being “anti” another.
England and Wales are the ones who forced the rest of the UK into choosing between Britain and Europe. If it's anti-English to say I choose Europe then it's anti-European to say I choose Britain.
You can't have it both ways.
Question for the above sensitive people from districts other than Scotland. I am wondering where the posters who are so tuned into Anti English language were during the first few pages of this thread when Scots were getting a kicking?
I’d hope that you could support your own “nation” without being “anti” another.
You can, even if some people want to try to claim otherwise.
I am trying to assert that I do not want to be associated with England and Wales anymore.
In what way, the people, the politics, geography, popular culture, language, arts? Can you explain?
Can we please have these quotes showing the "anti english" sentiment and the "hatred"
raging against a construct of your embittered imagination
Is it really necessary to use such inflammatory language big and daft? You leap all over this thread throwing out insults. Please stop
In what way, the people, the politics, geography, popular culture, language, arts? Can you explain?
Sure, England voted for Brexit and then they voted for Boris Johnson. I want to put as much ideological separation between myself and a country that would do that as possible. Who knows what's next.
Of course, you also have a whole album of greatest hits such as Blair's invasion of Iraq and Thatcherism.
Not to say that Scotland would automatically be immune to making horrendous decisions. Every country has at some point.
Now, I'm sure what I said was very obviously what I was always going to say. It's been said repeatedly on this thread and others many times so I'm sure you've got a super clever quippy comeback lined up and I'm very excited to hear it.
Please quote a single pejorative anti english post
Anti-English sentiment doesn't have to come in that form. It's like racism. Back in the day, this meant 'I hate black people'. But now we've realised that there's more to it than that. Parts of the US used to plead that 'separate but equal' wasn't racist at all and point to the 'equal' bit, saying how could it be racist when it says 'equal'? Now, if I started a conversation about how black people have a great sense of rhythm, that'd be considered racist. Even though having a good sense of rhythm isn't a negative.
The problem here is treating the English (and Scottish) as some kind of homogenous group and giving us all guilt by association. And naturally since you are anti-Brexit this means lumping all of us down here with that negative. I'm sure you'll label this as 'tosh' but this is how -isms work.
I'm fairly sure that if the tables were turned, that if it had been Scotland that voted out and Wales that voted remain, you'd be complaining if I were using such language against you. And rightfully so.
am trying to assert that I do not want to be associated with England and Wales anymore. You are saying this is invalid. You are saying it is anti-English. You are saying it is othering.
I personally am not, I have conflicted opinions on Scottish (and Welsh) independence. What I am trying to point out is that you and TJ are both using anti-English rhetoric without apparently realising it. It's a bit like Johnson referring to the EU as 'friends and allies' whilst promoting Brexit.
Your problem (and mine!) is with Westminster and the Tory party. Not England or Wales.
There is no anti english sentiment expressed at all that I have seen.
Several of us have perceived it in comments made. There's no such thing as a wrong perception. The fact that this concern keeps coming up suggests there's an issue on one side or the other.
Then please, please, please report the offending posts/posters to the mods. What you are doing at the moment is the definition of playing the man not the ball. You are not engaging in debate. You are saying our opinions are invalid because we are anti-English.
If our comments are anti-English then report it and the mods will warn/ban us. If not, please stop accusing us.
Your problem (and mine!) is with Westminster and the Tory party. Not England or Wales.
I think it might be more accurate to say the problem is with the "democratic" decisions of the people of England and Wales, and their implications for the rest of Union.
Several of us have perceived it in comments made
It is pretty noticeable. Not as bad as it has been, though particularly interesting given what has been said in the forum behaviour thread.
It is pretty noticeable.
Please report it.
Given the comments on the behaviour thread about people repeatedly stepping up to a line, but not quite over it, the irony on this thread is off the scale.
I think it might be more accurate to say the problem is with the “democratic” decisions of the people of England and Wales,
Not really. If you add 'some' or 'minority of' before people rather than 'the' then you are getting closer (but it is still a way off)
I think it might be more accurate to say the problem is with the “democratic” decisions of the people of England and Wales,
I'm not so sure, I mean the referendum was offered by the government and its results was acted upon by the government.
I think it might be more accurate to say the problem is with the “democratic” decisions of the people of England and Wales,
Again this is generalising. FPTP elections and binary referendums have to do work like this - but government doesn't, and neither do you.
Report it or stop accusing us, please.
Done.
This is getting tiresome, you made this exact argument in the forum behaviour thread and now, when you're being called out, seem happy to just ignore it.
I can see exactly where they are coming from, it's a crap argument and just detracts from everything else.
Done.
This is getting tiresome, you made this exact argument in the forum behaviour thread and now, when you’re being called out, seem happy to just ignore it.
Well done. What has been happening is exactly what Mark was talking about. People are playing the man not the ball. Anyone in favour of independence is being accused of being anti-English.
Debate the facts, don't attack our characters.
Is it really necessary to use such inflammatory language big and daft?
Seriously? have you got no insight at all?
OK, having gone away, opened a beer, and had a think, yes, my language was inflammatory, albeit unintentionally.
The problem is it's difficult to find a diplomatic way of referring to the decisions made by the population in England whilst acknowledging that almost no one here shares those views.
I apologise.
However, please understand that it's felt very insulting to have been accused of anti-English sentiments for two pages when, imo, it's not justified.
Well done @BruceWee for taking some time to think about things and having the balls to apologise.
My use of the word "perception" was meant to imply that I didn't feel it was necessarily intentional, but it felt like it pushed everyone into their trenches.
I'm sorry if my reaction contributed to the way things went.
On some factual points:
Scotland didn't choose to leave the EU - 68% of voters in the referendum opposed EU Exit - the decision can be perceived as imposed on Scotland.
The National is not an unbiased source of information.
Thanks BruceWee. If it helps, I've been accused of racism, justifiably so, and I try hard not to be racist. I said things I didn't realise were racist or would be interpreted as such.
The decision to leave the EU wasn't taken by 'the English', it should be clear by now there is no collective English mind. The decision to have the referendum and to subsequently leave the EU was taken by the government, and more English people voted to leave than not. But there is no single group of 'English people' any more than there is one of 'Scottish people'.
the decision can be perceived as imposed on Scotland
Indeed. The decision was also imposed on London, and Cardiff for that matter.
The decision to leave the EU wasn’t taken by ‘the English’, it should be clear by now there is no collective English mind.
Of course that's true.
Just for a bit of context, for my part, I've lived a lot of my life abroad and from a young age. It's been a constant throughout that English people (not all but a lot) will automatically refer to England or the English when what they mean is the UK or people from the UK.
I've always laughed it off as a joke or a 'typical English' response. It has always irritated me though but I didn't want to seem like I was one of 'those' type of Scottish people.
I'm very sensitive to English people who I feel don't view Scotland as a real country but rather just another region in 'England'.
I think we should be very careful about how we refer to the decision made in 2016. I also feel we should be very careful about how we refer to Scotland and keep in mind that implying that Scotland is somehow just a region in Greater England is very provoking.
It’s been a constant throughout that English people (not all but a lot) will automatically refer to England or the English when what they mean is the UK or people from the UK.
Try being Welsh!
But yes I recognise that, and it's frigging annoying. I mean, English people using the term England as a synonym for the UK is not explicitly anti-Welsh (or anti-Scottish), but it still is.
The whole nationalism thing is absolutely fraught. I mean, the UK is not homogenous, but neither is Scotland, England or Wales. That border is a pretty arbitrary line as I've always maintained, however I completely understand the attraction of separating yourself from what is right now an unfavourable political situatino.
As well as Scotland, London and Cardiff, the decision was imposed on every single individual remainer. But let's be clear, it's far less the fault of Sandra from Skegness than it is of Michael Gove from Aberdeen. It doesn't matter if you're English, Scottish, Welsh or N. Irish, Brexit has been imposed upon us all by a corrupt and corrupting government. We should blame them and not the people, many of whom were duped, who voted for it.
Anyway, this is about Indyref2 not Brexit. And imo the people of Scotland should be given the chance to decide their future again now that things have changed so much.
Well that was quite something to come in from work and find reported on. I can very much see both sides of the argument, I will say @BruceWee thank you for considering what you posted and apologising.
Now can we concentrate on the thread subject please and not who is right or wrong.
Just use leavers and remain not the target a geographical populous.
I want to see examples of this supposed anti english sentiment. No one seems to be able to give any
Its really very insulting to be acused of anti anything when you are not.
I do not accept Molgrips idea that referring to England is anti english.
I had a letter from the US once.
Addressed to: Pilot, 22 The Grove, Cardiff,* Wales, England.
FFS!
*This bit made up for effect btw
That border is a pretty arbitrary line as I’ve always maintained,
apart from its been a national border for many hundred years
I really am offended being called an anti english racist. Its not acceptable unless you back it up
I really am offended being called an anti english racist. Its not acceptable unless you back it up
I haven't seen that you have been, can you back that up?
Just use leavers and remain not the target a geographical populous.
Unfortunately, I don't think it's that simple. One of the key questions of this debate is, 'Are the Scots and the English* sufficiently different that Scotland and rUK should be divorced?'
*I know I'm ignoring NI and Wales but the fact is the absolutely dominant partner in this UK is England.
The biggest differences between the Scots population as a whole and the English population as a whole is political and this was illustrated by the referendum and electing Boris Johnson.
The voting habits of the populations are going to come up again and again in this debate but I think that this can be done so long as independence minded Scots are careful how they refer to the referendum and most recent election.
And that people avoid implying that Scotland is somehow the equivalent of an English region.
What I am trying to point out is that you and TJ are both using anti-English rhetoric without apparently realising it.
What we are saying is NOT anti english rhetoric nor are either of us anti english. I am English!
I want to see examples of this supposed anti english sentiment. No one seems to be able to give any
Can we stop please.
OK - Crossed posts Drac.
And that people avoid implying that Scotland is somehow the equivalent of an English region.
Yeah, that really won't go down well with people in Yorkshire 😉
@tjagain I think everyone was saying things they maybe didn't mean and there was a lack of tolerance and understanding on all sides in the last few pages.
I think it's important to point it out if anyone says anything we feel is provoking going forward but maybe we can try putting the last few pages behind us?
OK - got that message from Drac as well
I’m Welsh, live in Scotland (don’t plan to vote in Indyref2 if it happens while I’m still here because I plan to leave) and voted Remain which just goes to show what utter nonsense intheborders is talking.
I was talking about our Brexiter Unionist - small_and_soft 🙂
I had a letter from the US once.
Addressed to: Pilot, 22 The Grove, Cardiff,* Wales, England.
I once worked on a system that rather than keep a list of every city in the world for address entry it allowed you to input your own city and pick the country, and it would get written into the database. The database contained all sorts of rubbish in the form of spelling mistakes and cities called Smith or 39 Acacia Avenue, but also howlers like Cardiff, England and even Belfast, Ireland and variations thereof. And many times over, they weren't one-offs.
, i hear a lot of disgruntled stuff about the SNP focus at present, and the members in their cabinet, there’s a lot of work to do before any indyref is put forward!
Best way to get rid of them - vote Indy!
argee
Full Memberpeople are starting to sneer at them the same as they sneer at the tories, i hear a lot of disgruntled stuff about the SNP focus at present
Well yes, unionists have always done that- SNP baaaad, nothing they do can ever be admitted to be any good and any mention of independence always gets "focus on the day job". It's just how they play the game.
Other than Americans who does? I may have to apologise to those in NI for referring to the UK as Britain occasionally but other than for rugby and football England in place of UK isn’t used to anywhere I socialise or read
I walked into a Leeds sandwich shop at lunchtime to be met with the bloke behind the counter saying “England’s going to war in Ukraine”. So it does happen.
He didn’t take kindly to my suggestion that even if that was the case, no doubt Scotland may be dragged into it against our will.
Big and daft - the SNP are still more popular in Scotland than any other party is in any part of the UK with nigh on 50% of the vote. 3rd largest party in Westminster despite only standing in 9% of UK seats
3rd largest party in Westminster despite only standing in 9% of UK seats
The lib dems got 3 times as many votes and a third of the number of seats, and the greens almost as many votes for their 1 seat. The numbers in NI are even worse. It just shows how messed up fptp is. You can't use statistics from it to prove much.
You can easily state because it is correct that the SNP are more popular in Scotland than any other UK party is in the UK or any english or welsh only party is. No other party has voting rates as high or satisfaction ratings as high nor does any other party get 50% of the vote - and thats in a 5 party system not a 3 party system