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Lets not kid ourselves. The tories and the current government in particular, care not a jot for the precious "Union". The will throw any and everyone under the bus if its politically expedient, just ask their former friends in Northern Ireland. The UK government opposed Scottish independence because losing Scotland would be a strategic nightmare.
Where would Trident go? Where would the air bases go, they aren't located in the north of Scotland because the pilots like Cullen Skink. What happens to the GIUK gap? Britain's play at being an middle power with global influence becomes very shaky if it loses the top third of its island.
Does anyone honestly think Johnson gives two shit about us uppity Scots? He's only really shown much enthusiasm for the Union since he became Prime Minister, probably because he's been taken aside and shown a map of the North Atlantic and told what the first to letters in NATO stand for.
ALL THREE major political parties essentially implode and the political landscape changes; in my opinion that’s most likely to be a good thing no matter which side of the divide you sit on – but it is difficult to imagine how the factions might divide and converge.
MY view on this is :
Labour will split into a hard left faction occupying the ground that the SSP did and the rest will join with the urban, young left of the SNP to become a left of centre social democratic grouping
the Urban left of the SNP as above will join with the rump of labour and the rural right of the SNP will join with the one nation tories to become a centre right group
the Greens will continue much as they are as will the lib dems
the right of the tory party will go off and become a hard right anti everything party similar to Westminster tories now
so from left to right we end up with:
hard left group with small influence. A centre right group , a centrist group and a centre right group - they will share the power between them in coalition and control maybe 70 - 89% of the vote
A hard right group
And the greens who do not really sit in the left / right groupings
But surely if those that aren’t counted in the poll are unlikely to vote, that’s why they can forget about them?
Otherwise, it wouldn’t be a poll “if it were to be held tomorrow”, but rather “maybe not tomorrow but at some random point in the future where you still think you are unlikely to vote?”.
I voted no in 2014 and then voted to remain in 2016.
After the vote to leave the EU I changed my mind on Scottish Indy. Then for the past couple of years I switch between being pro and against Scottish Indy.
Look how difficult and disastrous Brexit has been. Then imagine trying to leave a political union of a few hundred years with a land border. It will be a hugely complicated struggle. Why would Westminster make any effort to provide good will in negotiations? Especially with a Tory government there?
People dream of being rid of the Tories in Scotland but the SNP is a broad church there are rabid right wingers who vote SNP as they are pro Indy, So who is to say we wouldn't end up with a similarly right wing party in charge of Scotland? We are not that different to England.
As in my above post I believe the realignment in a post independent scotland would see the power shared between centre right and centre left - not a chance of a hard right tory party in Scotland doing anything. Centre right as in Where Merkel stands in Germany
Look how difficult and disastrous Brexit has been. Then imagine trying to leave a political union of a few hundred years with a land border. It will be a hugely complicated struggle. Why would Westminster make any effort to provide good will in negotiations? Especially with a Tory government there?
Hmm, so you'd prefer to continue with an ever worsening UK, remembering that Brexit isn't the strategy, it's just the vehicle currently used to implement the strategy.
At what point will you realise that the UK of barely a decade ago has gone?
To be replaced by a country that, for example, is passing legislation to remove citizenship from any citizen or can lock up any protestor for 51 weeks on pretty much zero basis.
A thought came to me yesterday, was Teresa May's Govt the UK version of the Weimar Republic?
Hmm, so you’d prefer to continue with an ever worsening UK
No, that's why I swither. Ideally I would remain part of the UK get in a Labour government and have closer ties/re-join the EU. The question is how likely that is to happen, and at the moment it looks quite far away. But will the country turn things around? Yes, just depends how long.
Scot Indy isn't a silver bullet, it will be extremely difficult and will take years to sort out. It could end up better overall but by that time the UK could also have sorted itself out.
Does anyone honestly think Johnson gives two shit about
us uppity Scots?anyone other than himself or Tory donors?
FIFY
With a sensible approach and realistic deadline - not an artificial grandstanding deadline set for internal political expedience a la EU Exit - and it doesn't have to be difficult. Many countries all over the world have borders with each other. Some even used to be the same country, or in a political union. I know that is underthink but people really do get "monkey brain" over all this.
Look to the "velvet divorce" - the almost accidental split up of Czechoslovakia. thats the ideal
Does anyone honestly think Johnson gives two shit about us uppity Scots?
I don't know he keeps promoting Michael Gove......
The tories and the current government in particular, care not a jot for the precious “Union”
Clearly bollox, what Facebook groups are you in to read that rubbish
Surprisingly it will be labour that struggles, they are already non committal on defending the Union,
If, as Nicola Sturgeon says, she wants an independent Scotland to be an "outward looking, welcoming nation" and "a country that celebrates diversity”, she's got her work cut out.
I got into an argument with a dog walker the other day only for him to tell me to go back to my own country. Not sure what qualifies as 'your own' country but I guess I need to find out and pack my bags.
It wasn't an isolated incident either. I got called a foreign b*tch once.
It's my own fault. I live in Dumfries and Galloway which is a bit special.
I had the same in Edinburgh though. I committed a minor driving mistake which must have meant the other driver was held up by at least a minute. I got told to go back to Poland. Err, ok.
You'll find these type of people in all corners of the world I know. It just's another reason why the end of human race would be a good thing in my book.
As for independence, although I live in Scotland, I wouldn't vote as I don't plan to stay and I think it should be up to those who not only live here now but plan to stay here longterm. I can certainly see why an independent Scotland could be a good thing. Be interesting to see the results if and when Indyref2 happens.
Big and daft - they care about prestige and the loss of it if scotland gains independence, they care about the damage it would do to the balance of payments, they care about the nukes bases etc. they give not one hoot about what is best for the people of scotland
If the tories gave a hoot about the people of Scotland they would not have dragged us out of the EU against our will, they would have not taxed the NHS covid bonus, they would not have done loads of stuff. All they want scotland for is a submarine base and the grouse moors
Did you read what Johnson said about the scots?
But surely if those that aren’t counted in the poll are unlikely to vote, that’s why they can forget about them?
Yes - I'm not suggesting the pollsters are doing anything misleading; but the poll doesn't say a majority of scots in favour of Indy - it says a majority of scots who would vote are in favour of indy. The net outcome might be the same - but you get a Brexit mess where 52% of the votes case were in favour of something but it was actually only about 1/3rd of the electorate. Of course you can say they gave up their right to have a say - but for indy to be a genuine success and not another brexiteers/remoaners mess they need to genuinely bring the majority of people, not just majority of votes cast with them. And those shouting that Indy now has majority of people's support need to be very careful that they don't misinterpret the "non voters" as don't cares.
I tend to agree Poly - while 50% of the vote +1 is enough to pass it would be good to see an overwhelming majority - 60+ % of the vote
Scot Indy isn’t a silver bullet, it will be extremely difficult and will take years to sort out. It could end up better overall but by that time the UK could also have sorted itself out.
Yep, but it wouldn't really matter to me if rUK sorted itself out (I'd hope they do, I'm not for a minute anti-English), we'd be in charge of our own affairs, which to me is the whole point, I'm not a 'The UK is broken' type, I just feel we'd be happier and healthier as a nation on our own.
I don't really care about the financials (although Cameron and Gideon admitted last time this wasn't even a question, Scotland was financially viable), all the barriers people put forward in arguments, trade, borders, EU, whatever, are not insurmountable, sure it won't be easy, but IMHO it'll be worth it.
For me my preferred solution would be proper electoral reform that must be proportional UK wide and some sort of federal solution for the union - a union of 4 equals ( I know this is hard to find) too much of my life has been blighted by tory governments with big majorities on a minority of the vote allowing such nonsense as brexit and I see no signs of the pact needed between the non tory parties to do this
however - I see no chance of this in my lifetime. I see a good chance for scots independence and I am certain a independent scotland would have a better government than we get from the UK so for purely pragmatic reasons I support scots independence
@tjagain - lets be 100% clear I am not a tory, but your argument loses credibility when you write stuff like this:
If the tories gave a hoot about the people of Scotland ...they would have not taxed the NHS covid bonus,
You can't change taxation policy because "we like these people" or "they do valuable work for society" or whatever argument is made for why an NHS worker paid a bonus should not be taxed but a private employee (or any other public servant) should.
they would not have done loads of stuff. All they want scotland for is a submarine base and the grouse moors
I suspect the list is quite a bit bigger than that. Oil, renewables & trees (suddenly UK's carbon footprint is not so attractive without Scotland), fishing rights to negotiate with EU. Probably some of the radar infrastructure and fighter jet "strength" against Russia...
Did you read what Johnson said about the scots?
Boris is not the tories. Don't think that he's actually in control nor that once he goes their interest in the Union will change.
If the tories gave a hoot about the people of Scotland they would not have dragged us out of the EU against our will
They dragged 48% of the population of the UK out against their will. On this subject they didn't treat Scotland any differently to the rest of the UK. Doesn't sound like exceptionalism.
Poly - please stop referring to Johnson as "boris" It plays his game and makes him seem less dangerous
He may not be the tories but he is their leader and his attitude is indicative
A TORY peer branded Scotland a country of subsidy junkies who beat up English students yesterday.
Lord Flight ranted: “The English have had enough of subsidising Scotland, only to be treated with discourtesy.”
Conservative Councillor Richard Willis has tweeted a plea for Scotland to vote for independence "so we can be rid of your whining and whinging (sic) and leave the rest of the UK happier and wealthier!".
Etc etc etc
Look how difficult and disastrous Brexit has been. Then imagine trying to leave a political union of a few hundred years with a land border. It will be a hugely complicated struggle. Why would Westminster make any effort to provide good will in negotiations? Especially with a Tory government there?
In some ways the land border in Scotland is actually easier to manage than the one in NI though. Whilst in an ideal world for both Scotland and England you'd have no physical border controls, a Sweden/Norway or Switzerland/France border would not be the end of the world. In NI that is not possible under the Good Friday agreement. Then add in negotiations around military bases, the share of the UK debt mountain, etc and if BOTH sides are willing to cooperate you get a deal. I'm far more worried about Scottish negotiators setting stupid red lines like "No nukes on our soil from next week" than London ones.
People dream of being rid of the Tories in Scotland but the SNP is a broad church there are rabid right wingers who vote SNP as they are pro Indy, So who is to say we wouldn’t end up with a similarly right wing party in charge of Scotland?
Then that will be because the people of Scotland voted for that and chose to have it, and will then a few years later have the option to change that. The argument for Indy is not "never have a Tory in charge" its "Scotland should decide whats best for Scotland".
We are not that different to England.
I'm actually pretty convinced that we are. I mean nowhere in the Western world is "that" different to England but I'm pretty sure we are not only different but diverging...
So who is to say we wouldn’t end up with a similarly right wing party in charge of Scotland?
It could happen as poly says but given that the tories get 20% of the vote here and Scotland has not had the tories as the largest share of the vote since the 50s I consider it unlikely
I’m pretty sure we are not only different but diverging
Its the divergence thats the real issue - while England moves further to the right scotland moves further to the left. the disconnect is huge and getting bigger
Look at the response to the refugeee removals in Scotland compared to the RNLI in hastings
I wonder what would happen to the tory party here in Scotland if we gained independence 😕 Obviously there couldn't be a tory party as we have now, as they default to Westminster for their instructions and basis of policy.
Would there have to be new parties formed, but even then a tory-esque party could still be looking towards London and the English party for their policy ideas.
The various branch offices that run the Scottish version of the political parties would actually become separate entities, although I believe the Scottish Greens are already fully separated form their compatriots down south.
Short term you would still have the same parties. Longer term who knows.
I think there's still a massive job to do in parts of Scotland for those wanting independence. Mention the SNP or Nicola Sturgeon down here and you will likely be met by vitriol like you've never witnessed before. I don't share their views btw.
I also think they've got an image problem in some parts of Scotland. I told a nice neighbour about being told to go back to my own country. He immediately said the man must be SNP. Now I've never thought of the modern SNP as nationalist in a BNP kind of way but it kind of seems that some people think like that. As was said above the SNP is a broad church. Obviously, there are many more people in the more-likely-to-be-pro-independence cities so the numbers might be there for independence. Dunno.
Poly – please stop referring to Johnson as “boris” It plays his game and makes him seem less dangerous
OMG TJ - you really have lost it!
It’s my own fault. I live in Dumfries and Galloway which is a bit special.
Yes, it's a Tory voting area.
Dyna ti
I suspect as a ove the realignment post independence would lead to the left of the tories and the right of the snp forming a centre right group and the remaining tories disappear into far right ukip land and obscurity
The centre right could hold or shate power
It’s my own fault. I live in Dumfries and Galloway which is a bit special.
Yes, it’s a Tory voting area.
change can happen, I now live in what was a safe Tory seat (Ayr, Alloway), it returned SNP at the last vote. I'm taking the victory, it must have been me that tipped it!
@intheborders
You're right, it is. Their vote still counts as much as anyone elses when it comes to Indyref2 though.
Not sure much of Edinburgh votes Tory.
Also, and I did add this as an edit, whilst you might think of the Tories as xenophobic, at least one D&G resident thinks that of the SNP. Just shows that the divisions run deep and whether the numbers are there for independence or not, or whether they will be, I dunno and in reality nor does anyone else.
I’m actually pretty convinced that we are.
Oof.
You need to have a think about how media works and how you get your information.
MOlgrips - please do not tell people who live in Scotland what the conditions are. Its pretty arrogant of you to think yo know more about the politics of scotland than residents. I know i do not know enough about Welsh politics to comment on them with any confidence
UKIP at its highest got 7% of the vote here. 20 odd % in england. tories here get 20% of the vote compared to 40% in England ( and that holds true even pre the rise of the SNP) we voted for an explicitly tax raising government, no one dare mention that south of the border.
60+ % remain average across scotland with not one region voting leave in the brexit referendum
tories have not had the largest share of the vote here in 65 years. tory vote went down IIRC at the last GE
Politically we are different and we are diverging
You think about where you get your information from - you will ONLY see the unionist perspective.
Its pretty arrogant of you to think yo know more about the politics of scotland than residents
Yeah that's not what I said at all. But never mind. I'm not debating this with you.
But as a general point, on this subject, there is no such thing as 'the English' or 'the Scottish' politically.
And as a final point - Scottish websites are accessible from all over the UK and indeed the world, I assume you're aware of this?
And there you go again telling us that we are wrong. Politically there is a significant difference and its getting bigger. Its completely obvious when you live here
And there you go again telling us that we are wrong.
No, stop being a bell end. My initial point was telling people to consider where they get their information from, which is ironically the same thing you just told me.
Its completely obvious when you live here
Completely obvious depending on which bit of Scotland you live in and who you converse with.
Molgrips - that was precisely my point. You telling us you know better and to check your sources of info so I merely reflected that back at you - where do you get your info from that you can deny this?
the difference is obvious in voting patterns. thats hard evidence
I'm English but half Scottish by blood and have lots of family there. I work in Scotland quite a lot.
I'm often struck by how much more caring the Scots are of people and society in general. They are much warmer folk than the English. I can well understand the widespread abhorrence of Westminster Tories.
The SNP seem to get away with piss-poor performance; I think people turn a blind eye because they want independence (& the SNP is the only plausible game in town).
Whatever the Scotts decide re: Indy is fine by me. They should get the opportunity to vote in a referendum again I think.
The SNP seem to get away with piss-poor performance
I don't think they're the best at lots of stuff, but the likes of Ross constantly bleat about the attainment gap, education and the health service. Which is ironic given how his party do on all 3 of those in rUK.
However, it was really good to see him and NS on that visit to the drug rehab Centre last week, politician's SHOULD be collaborating to better society.
As things stand currently, I would vote for Scotch Independence.
Might change my mind as new info comes to date.
Not a definite position but, on balance, I think it's the right thing for the country.
I've no doubt Scotland will get independence one day, but the SNP are going about it just now as if it's got an expiry date, the entire world is in disarray just now, the UK still hasn't settled from Brexit and the rest, the EU is in a bit of flux as well, Covid isn't helping either in terms of bringing any stability, so probably worth focusing on how to improve what they can with what power they have at present, without getting caught up in any IndyRef2 stuff.
As for Scotland being left, or centre left or whatever, it's just like every other country, it has areas where they are left biased, and areas that are right, it has the affluent areas and poor areas that will vote towards their own benefit, or not at all, it's pretty much the same as the rest of the UK, and independence will just bring about a similar output as with any country, they'll probably pull a bit to the right to start with i'd guess, especially in this day and age.
it’s pretty much the same as the rest of the UK,
Its really not. Yes it varies across the country but
1) the tories have not been the largest party in 65 years here
2) we voted for an explicitly tax raising party
3) we voted 60+ % remain and no region voted leave
4)tories get less than half the vote they do down south.
5) Ukip got 7% of the vote here at its highest compared to 25% in england
the average vote is well to the left of the average vote in england
anti immigrant rhetoric gets zero traction here
I’m often struck by how much more caring the Scots are of people and society in general.
Does this include Michael Gove?
Gove is not one of the people of Scotland. I do not know why you continue with this weird charade. His constituency is in Surrey. He has not lived here for decades. He pays no taxes here and has no vote in Scottish elections.
You really are weird
I think the word you are looking for TJ, is troll.
tjagain
Full Member
it’s pretty much the same as the rest of the UK,Its really not. Yes it varies across the country but
1) the tories have not been the largest party in 65 years here
2) we voted for an explicitly tax raising party
3) we voted 60+ % remain and no region voted leave4)tories get less than half the vote they do down south.
5) Ukip got 7% of the vote here at its highest compared to 25% in england
the average vote is well to the left of the average vote in england
anti immigrant rhetoric gets zero traction here
Voting means very little to what i said, give the nation a clean sheet and they'll do the same as others, it's part and parcel of the western world just now.
As for Anti immigrant getting zero traction, are you being serious!
please do not tell people who live in Scotland what the conditions are.
You seem to tell people who live in England a lot about how shitty their conditions are to live in
Gove is not one of the people of Scotland.
Does this apply to all Scots who live, work and pay taxes outside Scotland?
You really are weird
You are cherry picking, a Scot born and educated in Scotland works in the UK Government deciding policies that directly affect those who live in Scotland. But he's not one of "the people of Scotland"
The "people of England" get to have him, what you will really hate is that we have you as well....
Agree - have you ever been to Scotland?
Voting is not everything but there is a clear pattern over decades.
Oh - and find me an example from any of the main scots political parties that shows anti immigrant rhetoric. Even the tories don't do it very much here.
WTF Does this mean? " give the nation a clean sheet and they’ll do the same as others" Others like the nordic and low countries? Increase taxation and increase support for the poor? give workers proper protection?
Just as a wee example - In England tenants get a 6 month ASL tenancy with no protection. In Scotland ( and its only a few years old we used to use ASLS) we now have the the "scottish residential tenancy" which offers tenants significantly more protection from unfair terms, eviction for spurious reasons etc - and even if you want to sell you have to give many months notice to get the tenants out compared to 1 month on a whim in england
Does this apply to all Scots who live, work and pay taxes outside Scotland?
yes mr troll
its very clear - the people of Scotland are those who have made it their home. They have the right to vote here One of the things you seem unable to understand - its not about blood and soil or ethnicity - its about who has made this country their home
what you will really hate is that we have you as well….
You really are weird. I have lived here for 30 continuous years. Gove has lived in England for 30+ years.
Are you really that hard of thinking?
Oh – and find me an example from any of the main scots political parties that shows anti immigrant rhetoric. Even the tories don’t do it very much here.
Remind me, you called Gordon Brown racist for his anti immigration policies and rhetoric
A Scot, representing a Scottish constituency, probably qualifies under your "people of Scotland" criteria, most senior politician in the UK (which includes Scotland) at one time
Yes I know - don't feed the troll. I shall go back to ignoring him but it needed to be stated clearly
Go on - quote me calling Brown racist. go on - quote - a direct quote. or apologise for your false allegations
tjagain
Full Member
Happily condemn him Ernie. Browns playing of the race card was totally unacceptable. But he is no longer in any position of power.
Seek and ye shall find....
I'm sure you'll claim that's not actually calling him racist or accusing him of using racist rhetoric,. Or you can use racist rhetoric but not be racist or some other excuses
So where is the quote that I called him racist. I made the distinction between" playing the race card" and "being racist" quite clear in that discussion
so once again - are you going to give the quote where i call Brown "racist" or are you going to keep on with your trolling
You really are a weird little troll - what do you get out of this nonsense? I think you need psychiatric help
tjagain
Full Member
Agree – have you ever been to Scotland?
Yeah, once or twice ;o)
As for the bit about becoming like other countries, it's pretty simple, just now all are pulling towards a single goal, independence, with uneasy alliances, when there's a clean slate, i.e. being independent, then there will be population who will be far right, far left, etc and those will fit in with metrics you see around the western world.
I made the distinction between” playing the race card” and “being racist” quite clear in that discussion
I would love to see an explanation of how "playing the race card" is not in and of itself racist?
@argee, I think you are generally right there. After Indy, Scotland will be similar, politically, to most of the west. However, Scotland's voting has been left of the rUK for a long time - not many Tories. It would be reasonable to assume that this will be reflected in any new political movements after indy?
just now all are pulling towards a single goal, independence,...............then there will be population who will be far right, far left, etc
Errmm - that really is not true - yes the snp ( membership less than 5% of the country, voters around 45% of the electorate) are a broad church from pretty solid socialist to paternalistic centre right.
But the SNP are not the same as the electorate. Ukip got 7% of the vote at their peak compared to 25% in england - and no one that votes SNP now will vote UKIP or hard right in the future. they might vote for a future centre right grouping but that movement willbe small
Even before the rise of the SNP and the independence movement the tories were no where near being the biggest party
with metrics you see around the western world.
which bit? The leftish social democracies of the nordic countires and the low countries? Or the right wing USA?
the metrics vary tremendously country to country
I just see most of the world has moved to the right, you take away that one party one direction thing and it'll be a bit of a hodgepot of parties and manifesto's, will be interesting to see, but first it would be waiting for the dust to settle after any in-fighting and appeasing of those who need it.
Agree again agree. But I think that opens the door for co-alition? Which "might" be a step in the right direction?
Argee - why would scotland after voting solidly left wing for 60 years suddenly turn to the right post independence??
pandhandj
Free Member
Agree again agree. But I think that opens the door for co-alition?
The list system pretty much guarantee's scotland will be dominated by coalitions. The SNP vote is un-natuarlly high at the minute, a lot of people only lend them their vote I reckon, and will continue to do so, I don't see this independence/unionist split going away anytime soon.
Apologies Joe, I was meaning after Indy. I guess it will take many years for unionist Scots to disappear, if they ever do. But coalition is good in my wee world... Select the best bits from all ideas, not just stick to 1 parties ideas for 5 years.
I’ve no doubt Scotland will get independence one day, but the SNP are going about it just now as if it’s got an expiry date
This is only true (the “what’s the rush, there is shit going down” argument) if you think ground can not be lost in terms of devolution. Under cover of all the difficult issues you list, some forced on the UK, some made worse by it, and some created by it, the Conservative party will unpick devolution thread by thread. It’ll win them loyalty from their supporters (especially down here), and shift power from bodies they can’t control, to those they can.
but the SNP are going about it just now as if it’s got an expiry date
there is also the internal politics of the SNP - there is a faction that believes Sturgeon is deliberately dragging her feet for reasons i cannot fathom and that Sturgeon does not want independence. There is a faction that believes the SNP should be going for independence now and there is a faction that believes they should wait until its a sure thing
also there is the basic issue that the SNP have been in power too long IMO - parties in power for more than 10 - 12 years run out of ideas , get riven by infighting and get infiltrated by those just after power or to push their own agenda. this is clearly happening IMO
Put all that together and then the SNP really have no choice but to get the referendum in before 2023. Otherwise the party will split up into factions and lose power and thus lose the chance
I don't think those factions are as big or as powerful as you (or they) think. A lot of SNP members have no wish to going back to the days of being a wee diddy party.
No beer - maybe you are right and certainly their discipline is good but labour never wanted to go to being a wee diddy party in Scotland but it happened - mainly from inept leadership and badly misjudging the public mood.
I think if the SNP do not get the referendum within that time scale the pressures will be huge - the fundamentalists will oust Sturgeon and usher in a period of infighting. Never underestimate the potential of political parties to self destruct. I would see it as ending up rather like the labour / SDP split although the nature of the electoral system would mean the efffect on the seats gained would be less but I could see them losing enough seats that a labour / tory coalition could control a majority . labour in Scotland has so lost its way that they will ally with the tories to keep the SNP out as they have done on a number of councils
Those numpties who think that for some weird reason Sturgeon is not committed to independence did rather destroy themselves by aligning with Salmond and ALBA which was a huge success so that might help reinforce discipline
There is also the pressures of the "broad church" with the right wing tartan tories having been purged and they might set off infighting as well. But again a number of "socially conservative" SNP bigwigs wasted their chance with Alba
The factionalisation and infighting in a party in power for too long is something that has been seen in many places at many ties
As for Scotland being left, or centre left or whatever, it’s just like every other country, it has areas where they are left biased, and areas that are right, it has the affluent areas and poor areas that will vote towards their own benefit, or not at all, it’s pretty much the same as the rest of the UK
Based on how the people of Scotland have voted for decades it's nothing like the rest of the UK.
If you believe otherwise, show your evidence.
Only evidence is being born and bred up there, growing up in Perthshire where it was a tory haven, moving down to Falkirk and Glasgow where your eyes are opened to the usual issues that have plighted Scotland for generations.
If you take away the London based politics, you're going to be left with new parties with voters now having no historical issues with voting, i.e. no 'would never vote tory/labour', then we'll see how those parties grow against the backdrop of changes under independence, which will push the voting metrics for me.
no historical issues with voting, i.e. no ‘would never vote tory/labour’
Locally here, that's been dispelled too btw, loads of folk I know from out in the former mining towns of East Ayrshire are now voting Tory, mainly because Labour are pointless though.
Ayrshire is a rangers enclave as well though 😂
Davidson successfully made the tories the unionist choice for the electorate. a good piece of political positioning so traditional labour voters turned to the tories if unionism was more important to them than political positioning right / left. thats a part of the reward labour got for forgetting the tories are the enemy and aligning with the tories in the independence debate, in going into anti snp coalitions on councils and running the labour / tory non agression pact in the GE. labour ended up losing a large part of its identity and allowed the tories to take the unionist vote.
AS an aside - does anyone know who the scots labour leader is now? I have just realised I no longer know! My situation has led me to take a lot less notice of the news than I used to but as a man who voted solidly labour for 35 years thats a weird one!
Don’t forget one of the important differences in Scotland is election by proportional representation.
If we had a parliament that reflected votes cast in England it would not be as right wing as it is.
I’ve come to the conclusion that Scotland is just generally more sensible and better at government for the people than rUK and give that the rest of us have failed to copy its homework, it should probably just leave (especially as Westminster is looking at ways to reduce devolution).
and no one that votes SNP now will vote UKIP or hard right in the future.
TJ, this is not true in the slightest.
I used to work with someone (now retired) who is a full on Indy supporter he is anti English despite being born and brought up in England to English parents. He is also a full on Brexiteer and I have heard him express pretty horrible racist views. He would vote UKIP in a heartbeat and I would bet there are many others like him. He isn't thick either, he is a degree qualified engineer.
I think you have rose tinted idea of what Scotland is like, maybe its based on where you live and who you associate with but I don't believe we are as different to England as you think. Certainly in the poorer areas that have had an influx of EU migrants have a higher proportion of anti immigration views.
The SNP is a broad church from people like me who vote for them as the other option is Tory, to people like yourself who fully support Indy to the full on anti English arseholes. If we got Indy I think things would be different and I don't believe you can look at current voting patterns to ascertain what people will vote for in the future. People are inherently selfish and will vote for their own benefits.
P.S I am not anti Indy, I swither. Brexit though has also made me battle weary, would be nice to go back to a bit of political calm!
Ayrshire is a rangers enclave as well though 😂
Absolutely, some of them had Corbyn down as a terrorist sympathiser, idiots. There are some sensible ones amongst our numbers, we're just not as vocal. 😉
Nobeerinthefridge
Free Member
Ayrshire is a rangers enclave as well though 😂Absolutely, some of them had Corbyn down as a terrorist sympathiser, idiots. There are some sensible ones amongst our numbers, we’re just not as vocal. 😉
Yeah, will be funny to see how independence affects them, then again they'll only be concerned if the number of penalties they get is reduced!