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Oh, yes please.
That is just the right sort of crisis to trigger the Scottish govt using the Claim of Right to announce independence.
Boris is clueless
But the spectator crew: unionist Scots, Andrew Neil, fraser Nelson (they've almost single handedly driven the salmonsd hooha in the media) & the pol eds wife is Johnsons press secretary & far more capable at PR than cummings etc
They're running the show now & won't be stupid enough to hand the SNP that kind of bonus
Crown Office led by a Holyrood executive cabinet member restricting the Scottish Parliament from publishing information that is already legally in the public domain.
is it already in the public domain? are you sure its legally there? the rules around jigsaw identification are rather complex. If Mr Salmond and his legal team, are convinced that publishing the content of those documents is not contempt of court - then I'm sure he's quite capable of putting it online himself. If the Spectator or any other media are also sure its not contempt to publish it they could also make the content even more public than it ever would be on a Scottish government website. Of course, if they were wrong Lady Dorian might be rather unimpressed.
If the Spectator or any other media are also sure its not contempt to publish it they could also make the content even more public than it ever would be on a Scottish government website.
They did by publishing it in full bar one redaction to avoid identifying a individual.
They then went and got confirmation from Lady Dorian that publication was legal. The Scottish Parliament published it for nearly a day. The Crown Office/SNP government insisted on redactions. These were redactions about the FM breaking the ministerial code. As such redactions would take those issues outside the remit of the two inquiries why do you think they were ordered?
So it's out there, legally, the redactions demanded were because..... The Scottish Parliament rolled over and complied because......
ps – I have read the reports on the exchange with the deputy speaker and Liam fox and the deputy speaker does not say what you claimed
Yet you fail to include a Hansard quote
What did she say?
Crown office decisions are politically independent.
That info is NOT in the public domain. Its subject to a court order from a judge that it NOT be published as the complainants could be identified from it. So what the Crown office did was enforce the trial judges decision. correct in law. Now another judge could order the publication but the crown office did the right thing
No the committee can and did publish on the Scottish Parliament website a less redacted version. The Crown Office redactions did not relate to jigsaw identification but accusations the the FM broke the ministerial code.
Report on the hearing on and revised judgement by Lady Dorian here
www.scotsman.com/news/politics/alex-salmond-inquiry-high-court-publishes-judges-full-reasons-relation-spectator-court-case-3136795%3famp
Example of redactions here (yes it's the daily mail)
https://www.****/news/article-9289975/Alex-Salmond-forced-WITHDRAW-bombshell-evidence.html
You really should invoke hattersleys rule. When in a hole stop digging. You really are looking foolish with your fact free rants
They are better than they were squirrelking but somewhat anti nuclear 🙂
I don't really care about the nuclear issue, realistically that ships long sailed for this generation. But the local that tried to run for Westminster last time is a proper eejit, nasty git as well.
It’s the default position
In regard to the status the EU affords iS on day one, it’s not in the EU (yet or maybe never), it’s not a party to the rUK-EU agreement, it therefore has the status in that agreement of “third country” in regard to rules of origin. I would argue that is the default position
So it's opinion then. Why pretend otherwise? Still, got there after a load of waffle...
I think it was on this thread someone asking who to vote for to make the most pro independence MSPs
If you are in Highlands and Islands yo have Andy Wightman who used to be a green now standing as an independent. land reform and raptor protection are two of his key issues. Dunno why he left the greens tho
Sounds strangely familiar, the lack of acknowledgement towards his reported concerns from the Greens just serves to confirm them IMO.
Dunno why he left the greens tho
Finger on the pulse of Scottish politics there TJ. I thought you were a bit of a Green.
After 2 years of Yes leads
2 polls this weekend show No with a lead
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1368357470159187972?s=19
There will be a few sighs of relief in SNP HQ about that.
Tbh that's just noise, support for indy is still about 50%, in spite of shambles at holyrood
Indy is happening now whether snp wanted it or not
I’d guess that could be a vaccine bounce? Maybe a very small response to EU protectionism re the Australian doses.
Sarwar sacks a candidate for daring to discuss possible labour support for a second referendum
He really is going full unionist old skool labour isn't he.
I really despair as i so want to see a labour party in Scotland that works for the people of Scotland but they seem to be disappearing down a plughole.
Tbh that’s just noise, support for indy is still about 50%, in spite of shambles at holyrood
Alternatively......
Support for indy is only at 50%, in spite of the shambles at Westminster.
Alternatively……
Support for indy is only at 50%, in spite of the shambles at Westminster.
Yep, but have you actually attempted to have a decent conversation with an average voter?
He really is going full unionist old skool labour isn’t he.
He's probably channelling Keir Hardie, the Scot who helped form the labour party and who was a MP for both English and Welsh constituencies
Or is he now disowned as no longer one of the "people of Scotland"
Sarwar sacks a candidate for daring to discuss possible labour support for a second referendum
didn't see anything on the BBC about that oddly enough. What have they got to be scared off giving another referendum.
poah - its basically tribalism. labour in Scotland have considered the SNP the enemy since losing power to the extent of anti snp pacts with the tories. So anything the SNP want MUST be opposed even if it leads to electoral suicide
also london labour are scared of being caught in "relying on the SNP" type nonsense in unionist / right wing media
Yep, but have you actually attempted to have a decent conversation with an average voter?
Define "average voter" for me and I'll let you know. I'd have thought it more the job of the people doing opinion polls to seek out a broad cross-section of society (I'm not sure there really is such a thing as an "average voter").
And I'm maybe being thick, but not sure how it relates to the point I raised?
I think it’s a mistake to assume that people will react to the UKs handling of the pandemic in a way that seems obvious to you.
also london labour are scared of being caught in “relying on the SNP” type nonsense in unionist / right wing media
Or they have realised that if your majority depends on a separatist party, when you separate you don't have a majority....
It's beyond me how the party of Keir Hardie could ever be anything but for the Union
its basically tribalism
Whereas the SNP are just "civic"
Maybe its the SNP weakening poll numbers
but Im surprised Johnson has fallen into this trap
https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1370134224934682630
I'm fairly confident that even if the SNP win a majority our lovely Tory government will ignore the irony and reject their mandate for another referendum as less than half the Scottish electorate voted for the SNP.
thats 3 pts on the SNP vote just there!
I’m fairly confident that even if the SNP win a majority our lovely Tory government will ignore the irony and reject their mandate for another referendum as less than half the Scottish electorate voted for the SNP.
Leaving aside the irony bit about the last Westminster election, what happens in the scenario where the SNP win the majority of seats, but (because the No vote is split over multiple parties) the majority of voters vote for parties opposed to holding a second referendum? That's the scenario we had in the last Westminster election.
In that case by refusing a second referendum Westminster will be doing what the SNP demand, ie listening to the wishes of the Scottish people. So everyone should be happy.
Leaving aside the irony bit about the last Westminster election, what happens in the scenario where the SNP win the majority of seats, but (because the No vote is split over multiple parties) the majority of voters vote for parties opposed to holding a second referendum? That’s the scenario we had in the last Westminster election.
Surely PR makes that much less likely to happen
Boris will listen to the people, the people who put him in power, the northern gammons and the southern middle Englanders and they won't want them uppity Scots leaving. Its got nothing to do with votes north of the border, there's nothing the Scots can do to compel Boris to authorise a referendum.
Surely PR makes that much less likely to happen
Possibly. However we don't have full PR (something I'd like to see at both Holyrood and Westminster). The Scottish system was in theory designed to prevent any one party gaining an overall majority (a good thing in any parliament I reckon). However what wasn't factored in was one issue dominating an entire election.
, what happens in the scenario where the SNP win the majority of seats, but (because the No vote is split over multiple parties) the majority of voters vote for parties opposed to holding a second referendum? That’s the scenario we had in the last Westminster election.
Cannot happen under the electoral system used - deliberately set up that way to try to prevent the SNP getting into power
they will mop up the constituency seats but as a result will get very few on the top up lists which are there to ensure proportionality Its not totally proportionate but its close. You need 50% of the vote to get a majority
there’s nothing the Scots can do to compel Boris to authorise a referendum.
No but there are a number of routes that do not need his permission.
No but there are a number of routes that do not need his permission.
All ruled out by Nicola Sturgeon.
they will mop up the constituency seats but as a result will get very few on the top up lists which are there to ensure proportionality Its not totally proportionate but its close. You need 50% of the vote to get a majority
So how do we know if the bulk of voters are for or against a second referendum?
All ruled out by Nicola Sturgeon.
And which, unless verified as 100% legal, would be boycotted by a very substantial percentage of the electorate.
So how do we know if the bulk of voters are for or against a second referendum?
You don't, but you don't need to. If a government is elected with a referendum in its manifesto then it has the right to introduce legislation to carry out that referendum. That's not specific to Holyrood, that's just how representative democracies work. However, as I wrote above, Sturgeon seems to be sticking to her guns about requiring the S.30. Now, that might change when the Keatings case comes up again. It was previously dismissed as being too hypothetical but that situation might just have changed with Boris's latest pronouncement.
The other option is that the Scottish Government legislate for a referendum and say to Boris "see you in court", i.e. leave it to the UK Government to prove it is illegal.
If a government is elected with a referendum in its manifesto then it has the right to introduce legislation to carry out that referendum. That’s not specific to Holyrood, that’s just how representative democracies work.
Indeed, but by using the same reasoning the government of the UK as a whole was elected with a mandate to oppose a second referendum. Equally democratic.
The other option is that the Scottish Government legislate for a referendum and say to Boris “see you in court”, i.e. leave it to the UK Government to prove it is illegal
That presupposes the Scottish legislation is legal. They could press ahead with a referendum anyway, but as I said unless they can prove it it's a legal one the it will be boycotted by a large part of the population. And though independence hardliners will say a victory in a referendum with a small turnout is still a mandate, the reality of politics means there's no way Scotland will effectively secede on such a tiny turnout.
Scotroutes - I know you have fallen out with Sturgeon but that simply is not true. See "the roadmap"
kennyp - there is a difference between unauthorised and illegal but I agree a widespread boycott would kill it
Indeed, but by using the same reasoning the government of the UK as a whole was elected with a mandate to oppose a second referendum. Equally democratic.
Yep, and I've even suggested in another thread that Boris could safely run back to the UK electorate to renew that mandate.
That presupposes the Scottish legislation is legal.
And Boris has already said he'd challenge it in court. That would clarify the legality.
See “the roadmap”
Have you read the roadmap? Sections 1 to 9 are just waffle.
10 In these circumstances, in which there has been an unambiguously expressed democratic decision by the people of Scotland and their Parliament to have a legal referendum the choice of the UK Government will be clear; to either (1) agree that the Scottish Parliament already
has the power to legislate for a referendum (which they won't) or (2) in line with precedent, agree the Section 30 order to put that question beyond any doubt (which they won't) or (3) take legal action to dispute the legal basis of the referendum and seek to block the will of the Scottish people in the courts. Such a legal challenge would be vigorously opposed by an SNP Scottish Government. (which they have refused to do so far - including fighting against Keating)
i.e. what I just wrote above.
kennyp – there is a difference between unauthorised and illegal but I agree a widespread boycott would kill it
True. This nothing illegal about holding a referendum (I should have phrased my post a bit better). However that referendum would not then give them a legal mandate to declare independence.
I should probably add here that if it can be proved the majority of people want a second referendum I'd be quite happy for it to go ahead. I don't just blindly object to one regardless. My gripe is the SNP claiming that a second referendum is the stated will of the Scottish people when the last election showed otherwise.
The only way to prove the majority of folk want a second referendum is to have a referendum on it. We know that there are SNP and Green voters who are content with devolution and that there are Labour and LibDem voters who would be happier with independence, hell there might even be a few IndyTories. Trying to divide the pros and antis across party lines just can't work. That's why we have to accept the mandate of the elected government and take it from there.
FWIW, I believe that there are many in the SNP who do not want independence. Why would they? They have a degree of power already, they can legislate on some of their pet subjects without interference and are likely to remain in government for quite some time given the state of the other parties. Why rock the boat and chance being chucked out as a result of the first iScot General Election?
FWIW, I believe that there are many in the SNP who do not want independence. Why would they? They have a degree of power already, they can legislate on some of their pet subjects without interference and are likely to remain in government for quite some time given the state of the other parties. Why rock the boat and chance being chucked out as a result of the first iScot General Election?
I know you know more of internal SNP stuff than I do but I do not believe this at all. Maybe a few of the idiots at westminster but the leadership? No
Any evidence?
And here come the co ordinated attacks on Sturgeon.
the report is not even released yet but has been leaked to form the narrative the way the unionists want leading to attacks from David Davies and Starmer on spurious grounds
the killer report will be the independent one into whether she mislead holyrood.
Tories blowing self congratulatory smoke up each other’s arses, entirely par for the course and I so want to see Alister Jack get a shooing come election time.
Could see blowback from this on the Tories
Murray & Davidson look bad now
Sunday Times leaking testimonies of 2 of the accusers is pretty dire as well
Next set of polling will probably reflect all this
Read the forward, reminds me of this
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/03/21/scot-london-never-scottish-enough-snp/
I'm not sure Fraser Nelson pulling the oppressed minority, bullied by the nats, card is that credible?
The spectator pushed brexit, knowing that it wasn't what Scotland wanted, like much of the tory establishment they have to assume some culpability
The spectator pushed brexit, knowing that it wasn’t what Scotland wanted, like much of the tory establishment they have to assume culpability
Scotland isn't an amorphous blob despite as Trevor Phillips points out 25+ years of re-education that everything good is tartan and everything bad is English as a form of gangster politics.
It seems that an awful lot of Scots the SNP want to disown as busy making Britain what it is today, yet it's always the English that get the blame
yet it’s always the English that get the blame
go on - one example of the SNP blaming the english for anything. Just one tiny example. direct quote =from SNP policy or publications.
Trevor philips - that well known racist. Great source.
The SNP feelings towards Scots ex pats in Surrey
tjagain
Full Member
Trevor philips – that well known racist. Great source.Posted 8 minutes ago
REPLY | REPORT
I'll email him a link and see if a. He reads it (I'm sure he gets his fair share of crank emails so might as well add to it), and b. Whether he thinks it's actionable
go on – one example of the SNP blaming the english for anything. Just one tiny example. direct quote =from SNP policy or publications.
Your confidence comes from the constant use of "Westminster" as the code for the evil English
go on. He got kicked out of the labour party for being racist so its not actionable. its fair comment.
Better sue a dozen newspapers and the labour party while you are at it
So you have no examples then just a desire to make an allegation that has no foundation. Must try harder
Only in your odd mind does Westminster = english. anyone sensible can see the difference - especially this English born man of English parents with an English accent.
go on. He got kicked out of the labour party for being racist so its not actionable. its fair comment.
If you bothered to watch the link you would know he is still suspended, as he put it Schrödinger's labour party member
Ian Blackbird referring to Westminster as the English Parliament
View the Hansard contribution by Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP) on Tuesday 4 February 2020 https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2020-02-04/debates/A3B1554C-FB48-4F9B-A6EA-B78AD05D0E02/NHSFundingBill?highlight=english#contribution-6B2353B4-2769-467F-8F51-3C2E7E76173C
Mhairi Black
To those who say that we are represented here and that we can change things, I say this: we have tried and we are outvoted at every turn. This gets to the crux of why independence is the only option left for Scotland. Let me give some context: Scotland has 59 MPs and the city of London 73 MPs. This is a Union that England dominates. The only reason why there is not an English Parliament is that the people in Westminster view this place as the English Parliament. We cannot afford to be naive. The only way to protect our Parliament is to become independent.
The irony when you look at the demographics of London is amusing
nothing there blaming the english for everything. Must try harder.
Big_n_daft's disappointment with the result is absolutely palpable isn't it?
Isn't it just. I love the evidence for england being blamed for everything.
Your confidence comes from the constant use of “Westminster” as the code for the evil English
theres a secret code now?
Im not even sure that works, 'westminster' being the bad guy is true from every part of the UK, including England
meanwhile hows the scottish salmon industry doing out of Johnsons brexit?
https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1373974501998915585
Spit the dummy?
Good lord some desperate posts from BnD
Big_n_daft’s disappointment with the result is absolutely palpable isn’t it?
More disappointed in the whole sleezy affair
Very disappointed that everyone is supposed to believe that she was not aware of Salmonds behaviour until the first allegations were formally briefed to her. That not one person seems to have asked why she and the SNP were unaware of his behaviour before the first allegations
Even more disappointed that political parties appear to harbour a disproportionate number of sexual predators that no-one sees, where complaints are managed slowly, and the perpetrators protected and excused
But you know, at least she followed process when it was formalised
I'm sure "lessons have been learned" and the SNP has revamped it's process to deal with allegations.
BnD has a point
The failures of the SNP in this were many, but the likes of the Spectator, Tories both sides of the border & plenty of unionists (including BnD) were so desperate to weaponise it to take down Sturgeon (they fear her) , that once it was decided she didn't break the ministerial code, then they're left high & dry.
The MSPs that leaked testimonies of the accusers now stand out as being the villains
Ross & the Scottish Tories really have ballsed this up
Possibly NSFW
So salmonds revenge is to help out the Tories..... 🤯
Looks like it. complete fud.
splitting the pro independence list vote makes a pro independence majority less likely
That youtube clip is ridiculous. Sturgeon moved the SNP to the left. sheer nonsense.
Jeepers scotroutes you have not half gone down a rabbit hole
tjagain
splitting the pro independence list vote makes a pro independence majority less likely
He is being very careful not to split the vote.
The Alba party are standing candidates in the list seats only. Their policy is simple, independence first and foremost. This will appeal to many independence supporters who feel the Sturgeon regime have been avoiding the open goals continually presented to them over the last couple of years.
The d'Hondt system means that if the SNP do as well as expected in the constituency seats, then they will not gain any list seats. Millions of SNP votes for list candidates may as well be put in the bucket.
This happened in 2016 and we got Tories, a SNP list vote being depreciated to 1/10 the value of a vote for a Tory.
The SNP follow a strategy of encouraging voters to vote SNP 1+1. This is for the benefit of the SNP, not independence. It is a strategy that prevents the growth of alternative independence parties and followed even though they know it means we get Tories and Labour instead.
When a party is polling as well as the SNP is, independence is best served if the constituency vote is SNP, and the list vote goes to an alternative independence party, thus reducing the seats won by the Tories, Labour, and Wee Willy Winky's mob.
Up to now the only alternative with any clout has been the Green party, and they have mopped up a lot of votes from people who vote for the SNP with the first vote.
Now that the Alba party represents a serious alternative, they are a serious threat to the Greens. Serious enough that the Greens are spitting with rage judging by their public statements about Alba.
The SNP are incandescent, especially as there are some defections and some more to come by the look of it. The Sturgeon cultists are absolutely rabid and vicious on social media.
Life has just got a lot more interesting...
For TJ https://archive.is/28ihM
epicyclo - he is splitting the vote.
Pro independence list votes used to be split SNP and Greens, now split SNP, Green, ALBA.
all this will achieve is taking list seats away from the greens and make it easier for tories and labour to get list seats
This is not about gaining independence - its about Salmonds ego and Salmonds revenge. He would rather stop a pro independence majority if he can damage Sturgeon.
Its not "sturgeon cultists" being rabid and vicious - I have seen huge numbers of posts from ex Salmond supporters stating he is a fud for doing this. I have seen huge numbers of posts from the wider independence movement slating Salmond.
How can anyone suppoort this self confessed sex pest who will not apologise for his disgraceful actions
At least this means he has burnt his bridges with the SNP which is good because if he had been readmitted the SNP would have lost my vote and that of many others
Epicyclo - have a read of the comments here. Not much love for Salmond
@tjagain, have a read of this https://archive.is/28ih M'm aware Salmond is marmite, but bear in mind the SNP has shed something like 50,000 members in the last few years because of unhappiness about the unsavoury and undemocratic goings on within the party. Not to mention the smell of financial malfeasance with half the audit committee resigning recently because they are not allowed to see the books.
Guess where those voters will go.
Alba will only split the vote if they stand in constituency seats. On current form the SNP will get no list seats. So the choice there is Vote SNP2 for the list, and let the Tories in, or vote for an alternative independence party and increase the number of independence MSPs in Holyrood.
sorry epicyclo - you have it wrong IMO on splitting the vote. They will dilute the green list vote and thus reduce the number of pro independence MSPs Pro independence list vote will be split 3 ways not 2 and thus allow more tories and labour in
Salmond is not marmite anymore - he is kryptonite. a huge turn off to the voters