MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
the recent swing in the polls as more a vote of no confidence in uk governance over the last couple of years, and in particular this last year than anything else.
What? you don't belive in the union anymore? despite evidence to the opposite? heheh.
I wish scotland good luck, I really do. I'm not going to pretend to understand the intracacies of scottish politics, because I don't, but damn they have a good reason to leave england.
Mayabe Scotland, Wales and ireland can form some sort of coalition against the English.
Mayabe Scotland, Wales and ireland can form some sort of coalition against the English.
Yes because everyone knows the English are awful, especially the English
big_n_daft
Free Member
Mayabe Scotland, Wales and ireland can form some sort of coalition against the English.Yes because everyone knows the English are awful, especially the English
You're almost as bad as epi with the victimhood btw. 😆
You’re almost as bad as epi with the victimhood btw
You should see what Mancunians say about scousers.
You should see what Mancunians say about scousers.
It was when I was in Poland in the early 90's that I realised that everyone looks down on somebody (Georgians if I remember), except I've never worked out who Scousers look down on.
except I’ve never worked out who Scousers look down on.
Everyone especially "woolybacks"
The SNP EU thing has me puzzled, they seemed to exhibit Corbyn levels of effort during the referendum
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17972264.snp-spent-shetland-byelection-eu-referendum/
Did they triangulate the best outcome for them or the UK?
No they thought (wrongly) that remain would win. The remain campaign was low key because it didn't need to be anything special. The leave campaign in Scotland was ineffective quite a large per centage of the leave vote in Scotland being from a centre left perspective and therefore dismayed by the lunacy of Boris Farage etc
big_n_daft
By Scots or the English? I’m sure it was all the nasty English….
Of course it wasn't. History shows there's always some people who will take the Judas coin. The French have a word for them.
Really…. No English place names referring to the fortified nature of the town…..
Loads of them, dating back to the occupation of England by the Romans for the purpose of keeping the inhabitants docile. QED.
Ironic with the Scottish plantation of Ulster and all that….
So that makes it ok in the modern world?
BTW at much the same time James VI passed an Act to exterminate my ancestors on the Isle of Lewis. The Act authorised resorting to "slaughter, mutilation, fire-raising or other inconveniences." It authorised them to do anything that would be necessary for "rooting out the barbarous inhabitants." Not a single clause in the Act mentioned any means for improving the lot of the islanders. The intention was to exterminate us and replace us with English speaking Lowlanders.
Because troops have never been called out to quell unrest in England….
Scotland got much worse reaction for unrest than Peterloo. The UK govt hasn't conducted active genocide campaigns in England, have they?
That of course is old history, but what it demonstrates is that when a people does not have control over its government, then shit can and will happen when protest happens.
BIg and daft - but Scotland voted 60+% to remain
BTW at much the same time James VI passed an Act to exterminate my ancestors on the Isle of Lewis. The Act authorised resorting to “slaughter, mutilation, fire-raising or other inconveniences.” It authorised them to do anything that would be necessary for “rooting out the barbarous inhabitants.” Not a single clause in the Act mentioned any means for improving the lot of the islanders. The intention was to exterminate us and replace us with English speaking Lowlanders.
What like all 1-2000 of them? 😆
Bit iffy to be taking personal ownership of history considering the numbers of ancestors we all have going back that far.
@seosamh Oh, this is your victimhood meme.
So what?
It doesn't matter how many, what matters is that they were lined up for extermination by a government that was remote to them.
It demonstrates the need for government to be as local as possible, rather than distant.
The actions that lead up to the Clearances are an equally good example.
Or what happened at Glencoe.
Wonder if the SNP will make anything of this?
The Brexit agreement mean NI gets different treatment.
ARTICLE 6 OF THE TREATY OF UNION 1707
"VI. That all parts of the United Kingdom for ever, from and after the Union, shall have the same allowances, encouragements, and drawbacks, and be under the same prohibitions, restrictions and regulations of trade and liable to the same customs and duties on import and export; and that the allowances encouragements and drawbacks." .....
It would seem there are possible breaches of the act of union. does this give the independence movement another line of attack?
epicyclo
Full Member
@seosamh Oh, this is your victimhood meme.So what?
It doesn’t matter how many, what matters is that they were lined up for extermination by a government that was remote to them.
It demonstrates the need for government to be as local as possible, rather than distant.
The actions that lead up to the Clearances are an equally good example.
Or what happened at Glencoe.
It has zero relevance to the questions at hand.
tjagain
Full MemberIt would seem there are possible breaches of the act of union. does this give the independence movement another line of attack?
It's not the first time is it? I mean yes it's an angle of attack but it's not a constitutional crisis or anything, just something to score some points.
Edit - apologies, cut and paste went crazy!
It has zero relevance to the questions at hand.
Apart from giving some understanding of some folks position and why?
I love the reference to the UK national health service. Its devolved! there is no UK NHS
Watching people scramble to try and make that comment not a) incredibly insulting and b) just totally untrue (and so obviously untrue that nobody could say it without either knowing it's a lie or being an absolute moron), is quite funny. "What he meant to say, was".
Johnson.
He's well named.
He did actually mention that we were ahead of the rest of Europe.
I don't think anyone doubts that. We may be talking about different things though.
Interesting poll in the scotsman - remambering the Scotsman is a tory supporting unionist paper and even spun it makes bad reading for the tories
key points - tories to lose half their seats in Holyrood, some tory voters trust the SNP more than the tories on education and health
Tee hee
The Brexit agreement mean NI gets different treatment.
Hmm, Northern Ireland citizens have had different rights to us on the mainland for years - especially women and gays.
Two things to say regarding that article. Firstly it's fairly widely reckoned that somewhere between 20-30% of labour voters support independence. Secondly that Labour voters and activists felt burned by allying with the Tories in BetterTogether the poll seems to bear that out.
There richard leonard just quit as leader.
Whose turn is it now?
Or have they gone through all their MSPs and have to start at the beginning again?
. Secondly that Labour voters and activists felt burned by allying with the Tories in BetterTogether
Not just that but the tory / labour non aggression pact for the last but one Westminster election now is seen as a total blunder as the ten tories that got elected led to may being able to continue
Leonard is a total fud. I don't know of anyone who will be better. Hopefully not another west coast apparatchik but I don't know who they have who could do better.
https://scottishlabour.org.uk/people/msps/
An inspiring bunch - not!
Is Boyack the best of the bunch? I am assuming Iain gray will not be standing again as he has had a shot. Sarwar?
Not sure why anyone would want the role in the run up to May. Can imagine them all trying to persuade each other to do it.
Sarwar would I am sure.
key points – tories to lose half their seats in Holyrood, some tory voters trust the SNP more than the tories on education and health
That must take some serious mental gymnastics. Scotland has worse outcomes than England for both education and health.
I reckon they'll delay any leadership contest till the summer after the Holyrood election and probably won't announce a winner till the autumn.
Richard Leonard gone, will anyone really notice?
Labour took Scottish votes for granted and got spectacularly out witted by the SNP and wee Ruth Davidson,then had no one of any value to bring life back to Scottish Labour. As TJ eloquently put it, Richard Leonard was always a useless fannie. Labour is dead in Scotland.
Sad
5th Elefant not such difficult gymnastics on health. Scotland's NHS is rated highest in the UK and was seen a less vulnerable to privatisation than in England. The internal markets bill may have changed that last. Our poor health stats are often due to long term economic and social issues
The Brexit fishing shambles isn't going to make this look any prettier
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1350086633656365057?s=19
I would be surprised if tories get 24, the Scotsman poll would have them on 15
Its going to be a bit of " who the flip do I vote for" election Fortunately my SNP msp is a good bloke unlike the diddy of an MP
Richard Leonard gone, will anyone really notice?
I heard two different news readers stutter when trying to name him today.
Says it all really.
SNP are going to weaponise the crap out of this
https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1350039732085018624?s=19
Well if lack of vaccinations are fair game for Ruth the mooth then they can crack on.
Not quite sure your point there duckman. the scottish government have been putting a lot of effort into getting care homes vaccinated and are now at over 90% and deaths in care homes in Scotland are falling. A big difference to England and Wales
Vaccinating care home residents is slower and more labour intensive hence reduced vaccinations to the next priority group compared to England
England went for the low hanging fruit for headlines, Scotland went for the clinical priority
Not quite sure your point there duckman. the scottish government have been putting a lot of effort into getting care homes vaccinated and are now at over 90% and deaths in care homes in Scotland are falling. A big difference to England and Wales
I don't think that's what Duckman was saying, he was making the point (I think!) that the wee blue referees assistant was using vaccinatons against Scotgov, so they've already (once again) shown their willingness to use anything to get at the current incumbents.
I wondered onto Davidsons facebook page. 7 of the first 8 posts were SNP baaaaaaaaaad. I politely suggested that some promotion of tory policy might be more apt.
There is also from another tory ( ruddy facebook algorithm) Slating labour for refusing to join a unionist alliance with the tories.
does one suspect their cupboard is somewhat bare?
It also amuses me that the unionists use lies or distortions to attack the SNP when there are actual real issues to attack them on.
Whilst there's plenty to attack the SNP for TJ, I think the UK Govt is giving them more ammunition daily than they are creating themselves. The steady erosion of constitutional norms and parliamentary scrutiny to put ever more power in the hands of the Executive is one of the aims they have on which they seem to be succeeding.
Sturgeon just needs to shut up and let Johnson do her indy job for her winding up enough people so that a vote is done on emotion rather than logic. SNP will have learned from Brexit succeeding that it is possible to win that way.
SNP will have learned from Brexit succeeding that it is possible to win that way.
Brexit was 'won' by shouting of blatant lies, not keeping quiet.
I wandered onto Davidsons facebook page. 7 of the first 8 posts were SNP baaaaaaaaaad.
We received a Tory flyer through the door, no mention of policy, just repeatedly slamming SNP. They've got nothing.
Brexit was ‘won’ by shouting of blatant lies, not keeping quiet.
It was, but the PM and his cabinet are running such a constant stream of nonsense that the SNP don't need to go out and invent the lies like Vote Leave did because Westminster is writing their material for them. Just need to record and playback come any vote.
They’ve got nothing.
The only way is down for them now surely, unless Labour manage to rustle up yet another pointless buffoon (they do seem a speciality these days). They had the Brexit bounce, when all the died in the wool unionists couldn't bring themselves to vote for anything corbyn related, that's gone, independence is the only vehicle that will bring those folk back to the Scots tories, that's why they keep bringing it up.
Yet thats what they accuse Sturgeon of.
I don't think Scottish Labour actually have any talent. Sarwar has chucked his hat in the ring again with a press statement that is just dim meaningless deluded drivel and now Lennon has as well. Never really heard of her but she appears to be a nonentity
I'm not really aware of Sarwar tbh, but there's a dozen Monica Lennons in the party.
Its getting to the point I actually feel a bit sorry for Scottish Labour. They are one election away from disappearing into the same obscurity as the Lib Dems up here.
But what are they for? In theory they should be a pro-union, but pro-reform, social democratic party that has a solid base amongst left leaning voters who aren't quite sold on full Indy. Instead they offer absolutely nothing. The pro-union, pro Brexit, vote coalesces round the Tories and Labour's own political doctrine stops them from co-operating with the SNP even on policy areas they agree with.
They aren't just bereft of talent, they are bereft of a reason to exist at the moment.
unless Labour manage to rustle up yet another pointless buffoon
A challenge I believe they are willing to accept
Scottish labour need a proper divorce from Westminster and a coherent policy on the constitution
their behaviour since losing power in Holyrood has been appalling and its cost them influence and votes.
To be fair to Monica Lennon, she has previous in suggesting that Scottish Labour should actually be an independent political party, not what it is now - Labour in Scotland. I get the impression that she is rather more forward-looking/realistic concerning Scotlands destiny. She is also previously on record backing the right of Scots to have a referendum (though I believe she has now backtracked since she put her hat in the ring). Anyroadup, Sarwar, the millionaires son, will get the job. The folk financing Labour, and who called the shots in dumping Leonard, don't want it any other way.
Could be an interesting couple of months...
Labour leadership contest.
Martin Keating S30 case.
Salmond harrasment enquiry.
SNP leadership contest.
Holyrood election.
Agree re the Keatings case, could be very interesting.
Ta for that on Lennon.
If the SNP really do descend into an internal fight they are putting the independence cause back hugely. I cannot understate how stupid that would be. Are they looking to labour and saying " thats a good idea?"
Er - SNP leadership contest? Do you know something we don't Scotroutes?
Er – SNP leadership contest? Do you know something we don’t Scotroutes?
I would suggest he is alluding to this
Salmond harrasment enquiry.
Martin Keating S30 case
It won't get resolved before the SNP starts imploding over the who knew what when and did she/ didn't she lie in Holyrood. They need a successor quickly and there isn't a clear front runner/s who can keep the show on the road
Brexit has made independence harder, the EU membership issue is what will highlight it:
EU membership means either the euro or Merks and bawbee's. You can't go in with the £
EU membership means a customs border with England and Wales
EU membership is 5-20 years away, is anyone credible claiming it could be quicker? So you now have to get your own trade deal with rUK and EU. Negotiation of which (especially the EU) are not likely to start until after independence.
Add in that the SNP defence position isn't compatible with NATO membership (no nukes and <2% defence spending). So the global outlook starts to look shabby
Running with the £ is a perfectly respectable option but limits your fiscal policy considerably, any mention of a Scottish currency will see capital flight, anyone with wealth will send their money south
Big and daft - brexit has made independence easier - see the polls and the fact that there is no longer a spanish veto
EU membership is now much easier for iScotland and would be virtually instant. Remember we are complant with all EU law, we have most of the UKs fishing stock, we would be a net contributor and most importantly of all the rest of the EU would delight in sticking two fingers up to rUK
We do not want to be in NATO anyway. It was a decidedly stupid policy change from Salmond pushed thru without a vote to pander to right wing press.
Capital flight? From England to scotland so they can remain in a (sort of) english speaking country and have frictionless access to the EU
Most of the people here look to small, wealthy neutral countries and think " that who we a=want to be like" No delusions of grandeur. In 2014 the unionists tried the attack line " post independent scotland would have no more influence that finland on the world stage" we gave a collective shrug and said " seems about right"
EU membership is now much easier for iScotland and would be virtually instant. Remember we are complant with all EU law, we have most of the UKs fishing stock, we would be a net contributor and most importantly of all the rest of the EU would delight in sticking two fingers up to rUK
What currency is iS taking into this "virtually instant" rejoining the EU?
Can you enter without satisfying the fiscal rules on deficit?
Where are you building the lorry parks for the customs border?
What currency is iS taking into this “virtually instant” rejoining the EU?
to be decided by the government of the time. The £ is the interim / transitional option. A great deal depends on how hardball Westminster play
Can you enter without satisfying the fiscal rules on deficit?
Yes. Look at the rest of the EU economies and of course it can be fudged for political reasons and again it depends a lot on how co operative Westminster are.
Where are you building the lorry parks for the customs border?
Why would we need to? Westminster going to put up barricades?
What currency is iS taking into this “virtually instant” rejoining the EU?
You have two options, the Euro or merks and bawbees, a "transitional" option of the £ doesn't exist. Any vague wishy washy guff is just Brexit level misdirection. How long will it take iS to transition to this currency to achieve "virtually instant" EU membership?
Yes. Look at the rest of the EU economies and of course it can be fudged for political reasons and again it depends a lot on how co operative Westminster are.
What has Westminster got to do with the iS deficit? Why will the EU allow a non EU country to fudge it? How is iS going to comply with the basics if its running a deficit outside the accepted norm for joining or continuing membership?
Why would we need to? Westminster going to put up barricades?
The EU will demand the barriers as there are at the channel. Westminster I believe tried to negotiate out of them but couldn't come to terms. The EU take the border of the single market very seriously
we would be a net contributor
Really? If so how much will you be net contributing?
What has Westminster got to do with the iS deficit?
because the settlement between rUK and iScotland will have a huge bearing on it. Thats why. rUK plays hardball as they have threatened thus leading scotland to take non of the debt is a very different situation from an amicable settlemnent where scotland takes its share of the debt. debt repayments are a huge part of it.
the fudge would be from the EU side
because the settlement between rUK and iScotland will have a huge bearing on it. Thats why. rUK plays hardball as they have threatened thus leading scotland to take non of the debt is a very different situation from an amicable settlemnent where scotland takes its share of the debt. debt repayments are a huge part of it.
the fudge would be from the EU side
Whilst I don't doubt there will be strong negotiation a rule of thumb will be based on population is surely the guide. What are the SNP proposals? If you don't take any debt and in effect default good luck raising money on the bond markets (sorry I forgot you will be running a surplus)
It's all academic unless Boris or whoever else is in Westminster LETS Scotland have another referendum. At the moment that is not going to happen so there is no legal route to independence. I can't see the EU looking too kindly on Scotland starting a civil war.
Ironically Brexit makes it easier to sell the idea of independence and a lot harder to successfully achieve it. Mind you, sounds like you have an oven ready, grass will be greener solution for all the tedious issues. The reality is even with everyone keen to make things work these things take decades. In this case rUK will be looking to put the boot in at every opportunity assuming we still have the Tories in power, thats how bullies operate, and its still looking likely they will remain in power for some time to come. Magic Grandad saw to that.
It should also be noted that EU membership for iS will probably be another referendum after independence is achieved. Plenty on this thread acknowledge that it is not a settled issue and it's likely to be a referendum to set the policy as it's giving away part of the sovereignty just gained.
But you know, keep going with the Brexit level tripe of "virtually instant". As I said nobody credible is saying it can be done in less than 5 years.
tjagain Full Member
If the SNP really do descend into an internal fight they are putting the independence cause back hugely. I cannot understate how stupid that would be. Are they looking to labour and saying ” thats a good idea?”
I had the impression that an internal fight within the SNP has been bubbling under for several years already. One of the flash points was who would be their candidate for Edinburgh Central in this year's election, I think. Looks like Angus Robertson won out over Joanna Cherry on that one.
When a party has been in power for a long time and its opposition has remained weak it becomes increasingly likely that it'll start suffering from internal divisions. The SNP feels noteworthy for having largely kept a lid on theirs for so long.
Yes. Look at the rest of the EU economies and of course it can be fudged for political reasons and again it depends a lot on how co operative Westminster are.
If Scotland votes for independence while the UK is still smarting from the harsh realities of Brexit (and grievances no doubt stoked by the right wing press) then I imagine that there'd be a lot of pressure on the Westminster government to treat Scotland as badly "just like what the EU did to us". I can certainly imagine that a Tory government in Westminster would see acting in that way as a vote winner.
What happens to my standard life pension in case of iScotland?
Whilst I don’t doubt there will be strong negotiation a rule of thumb will be based on population is surely the guide. What are the SNP proposals? If you don’t take any debt and in effect default good luck raising money on the bond markets (sorry I forgot you will be running a surplus)
Short memory?
the SNP want a fair division based around population. During 2014 the unionists said Scotland would not get this in particular in relation to the pound - which is owned in part by scotland.
It was also made clear at the time that scotland taking on any of the debt is truely voluntary but the Yes side accepted they would take a fair share unless Westminster played hardball. Westminster confirmed that all the debt would legally be rUKs thus scotland would not be in default
Really dude - I know you are anti independence but at least get your arguments right!
What happens to my standard life pension in case of iScotland?
Nothing. Why would it change?
What happens to my standard life pension in case of iScotland?
Nothing. Why would it change?
Sorry I jumped two steps to iScotland in EU. I was reading the piece below. It's from here, quite old in fairness.
https://fullfact.org/scotland/pensions-independent-scotland/
Private pensions would be affected by EU law
While public service pensions would also continue to be protected, private pensions might be affected. Scotland's accountancy body ICAS has said Scottish independence would have far-reaching implications for private-sector pensions due to European Union law. Pension schemes operating between Scotland and the rest of the UK would be classified as 'cross-border' after independence, and EU rules mean that if a pension scheme is run in more than one member state then it needs to immediately be fully funded rather than have a staged recovery plan. It says it remains unclear how this funding issue is likely to be satisfactorily resolved.
Edit, possibly not relevant now due to brexit.
the SNP want a fair division based around population.
Fine
During 2014 the unionists said Scotland would not get this in particular in relation to the pound – which is owned in part by scotland.
It's owned by the UK, you are leaving, what is there to own other than potentially a share of currency reserves? It's not valued as a business is, there is no share capital, no goodwill. Similarly you will be able to use the £ but not print it.
It was also made clear at the time that scotland taking on any of the debt is truely voluntary but the Yes side accepted they would take a fair share unless Westminster played hardball. Westminster confirmed that all the debt would legally be rUKs thus scotland would not be in default
Good luck with that hypothesis. If you want any of the assets you take a share of the debt. Otherwise you are essentially nationalising property of another state.
Still waiting for any details on the "virtually instant" EU membership, currency, net contribution, fiscal alignment, EU single market border etc. Ideally a level up from the Brexit level rubbish posted previously. It's almost Gove like in its certainty that there is a simple deal to be had that ignores all the conflicting issues that stop that. I know he's a Scot but he isn't one of "the people of Scotland" so you don't have to be the same.
Its not a hypothesis. That was stated by the unionists from westminster at the time, Westminster threatened to withhold all assets, The Yes side said then we will take non of the debt, westminster then had to accept legally the debt would then be all be theirs and this caused huge panic.
it was not Scotland threatening to take none of the debt. It was westminster threatening not to have a fair distribution of assets
As for the rest of it? I suggest you do two things. Read up the debate from last time and read up on statements from the EU about iScotland
I am puzzled by this ownership of the £, liability for the debts point. The intangible assets and liabilities of the UK ultimately belong to the UKs shareholders who are surely us, the people, whether English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish. To the extent that anyone "owns the £" it is the Bank of England, of which the UK government is the sole shareholder. There is dosh sitting in the Bank and debts to/from clearing banks (which have to have accounts with the Bank). These will belong to Scotspeeps on independence and could be transferred to a new Scottish central bank which would thereby have the assets etc. to set up a currency, effectively its share of the £, and to support the local banking system. Similarly for government debt, which also involves a share of the goodwill the UK Government has built up as a good place to stash your dosh. Obvs it is more complicated than that, but this seems like a reasonable overview to me. So to argue differently for assets and liabilities seems to me to require some particularly tricky logic.
I don't understand why folk have a problem moving straight to the Euro on joining the EU, or maybe it's because folk like Big & Daft are so against independence that ANY issue is enough?
So we'll need a new currency, so what.
I don’t understand why folk have a problem moving straight to the Euro on joining the EU
In theory, you can't. You need to be a member of the ERM for two years before being considered for the Euro. Of course, as Brexit has shown, in the real world everything is up for negotiation.